To those who have served ... you're not all heroes

Like another poster said, I respect the veterans that actually fought for my freedoms. Thumbs up to you guys, seriously.

But what did the Vietnam or Iraq war have to do with MY freedom or any other American's freedom? The soldiers fighting these wars have a conscious and have free will to disobey orders, so saying your just doing what you were ordered to do doesn't cut it. Sorry.

reply to post by Zosynspiracy


That blog really brings it home.
It all sounds romantic until it gets real.
Lets hope it will all come to an end one day, without it having to be 'last man standing'

reply to post by daddymax


Don't worry..........the way America is headed you won't have to protect us nor our freedoms......you'll be fighting us in the streets of America as ordered by your government. The more divided America becomes...........haves vs. have nots.......WallStreet vs. Mainstreet.....illegals vs. legals........antiwar protesters vs. militaristic hoo yah crowd...........America is an a spiral towards civil war. And I say bring it on!!!!!!!!!! Just because you are not in uniform doesn't mean you don't know how to fight or shoot a weapon buddy! It's gonna take a bloody, violent civil war to change the direction this country is headed I'm sorry to say!

The American people are getting pissed off and rightly so!

Originally posted by daddymax
reply to post by Ulala

 

This from a child who does not have the testicular fortitude to man up and voluntarily put himself in the position to protect his home, family, and way of life.

Grow some hair down there...spend a single enlistment doing what it takes to protect you and yours from the way of life others think you should have...and then I may give your opinion any symbolance of consideration!

Until then, you are just another coward exercising the freedoms you were given by all of us non-heroes.

Happy Veterans day...to ALL of our Heroes, both fallen and standing tall!

Wrong again, you did not GIVE ANYONE those rights. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights does. Iraq didn't invade us(the first time or the second), the Viet Cong had no mission to invade the U.S., Afghanistan did not either.

And let me guess, "real men" enlist for wars of profit and resources huh? You fought for General Electric and DuPont...not our FREEDUMBS.


Now when will YOU thank the Founders for rebelling against Britain? Or will you appeal to emotions and fantasy about "bravery" till the day you die? Because quite frankly, that dog won't hunt to anyone with an understanding of history.

Tell me what war you fought in and I'll tell you if I think you're a "hero". Something tells me you're not in your 80's and didn't dance to Glenn Miller songs. But you might surprise me.

Although you may argue that the wars being fought now are not legitimate, the people who have volunteered to fight those wars are, for the most part, heroes. Some people honestly believe in their country and its government. These people may not have had an opportunity to have their consciousness raised. They may have bought into the stuff they were taught in school. Whatever. Almost all of us, at one time, were brainwashed.

So maybe these volunteers are misguided. Let's just say they are. What they are doing is still being heroes. They are doing what they believe to be right. They are risking their lives for what they believe their country justly asks them to do.

It's easy to sit around at your computer and knock people you don't know. It's easy to judge, when you're comfy and warm, and no one's shooting at you. It's easy to criticize when you've got a safe place to be, food, water, all that good stuff. In the comfort of your home, with a full belly, it's easy to look down on those who might be fighting in a war you don't approve of.

But these people are facing violent death every day. They live under conditions that most of us would find intolerable. They suffer and endure, because they thought they were doing something good. Even if you disagree with them, they have put themselves on the line for what they believe. That's more than most of us ever do.

I say they are heroes, almost all of them. Sure, there are a few thugs and bullies in there, as there are in every group. Sure, some are in it for reasons other than ideals. But most are in the military because they believe they're doing something good and useful.

They're heroes in my book. They're out there putting it on the line for us, risking their lives and their futures, fighting for what they believe is right. It takes just as much guts to face hostile fire in an "unjust" war, as a "just" war. The bullets and shrapnel hurt just as much, kill you just as dead, even if the war you're fighting doesn't meet the approval of some people.

Don't let anyone tell you you're not heroes. Just the act of volunteering during wartime takes a lot of guts.

"Wrong again, you did not GIVE ANYONE those rights. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights does. Iraq didn't invade us(the first time or the second), the Viet Cong had no mission to invade the U.S., Afghanistan did not either.

And let me guess, "real men" enlist for wars of profit and resources huh? You fought for General Electric and DuPont...not our FREEDUMBS.


Now when will YOU thank the Founders for rebelling against Britain? Or will you appeal to emotions and fantasy about "bravery" till the day you die? Because quite frankly, that dog won't hunt to anyone with an understanding of history.

Tell me what war you fought in and I'll tell you if I think you're a "hero". Something tells me you're not in your 80's and didn't dance to Glenn Miller songs. But you might surprise me."

==============================================
I call bull# on this statement. You say that Veterans day is only for legitimate, according to Hoyle freedom fighters. They are the only ones eligible for our thanks. WRONG!

Every single person that has ever fought in combat for my country IS a freaking hero. For one reason if nothing else, I DIDN'T HAVE TO.

I don't give a # what the war was caused by. Hitler, DuPont, Haliburton..doesn't mean a flying freak to me. Fact of the matter is those conflicts were going to happen anyway and for someone to stand up and say they would go means that they went in my stead. They fight, and die so I don't have to.

That's a god damned hero in MY eyes.



[edit on 12-11-2009 by midnightbrigade]

[edit on 12-11-2009 by midnightbrigade]

[edit on 12-11-2009 by midnightbrigade]

1) From a psychological stance , it must be a real F****D feeling to know there is a strong possibility you killed another human being and watched the life force drain out of him over a LIE. Most human psyches can't take that level of guilt, they'll snap. So all these Vets who scream "we did it for your freedom" are in self protect mode. All organisms have a survival mechanism, but humans have the most blatant deniability, because if they didn't they would snap and be Jeff Dahmers. So I must in a way thank you vets for living in denial, wouldn't want you on the streets busting a Ford Hood now would we.

2) The above is possible because you swallowed the lie and choose to meme it, YOUR BAD...YOUR RESPONSIBILITY...YOUR FAULT...period.

3) Your attitude that civilians are some how subject to your "honor" and somehow should show you a level of respect beyond a school teacher, a scientist, a musician, and inventor...shows you have been given an ego and self importance which needed to be bred into you in the first place. I.E. humans are taught this grandiose self centeredness. You volunteered on your own will to placate these grandiose feelings of superiority. Again,.....YOUR FAULT.

4) The denial mechanism you choose to feed only supports a system which will continue to be broken and will continue to put America in REAL harms way, by creating an Empire/ Xenophobic stress on the planet and sovereign nations. Much is the fault of political parties (Dem and Repub), Military Lobbyists, and higher ups you will never meet. But the underlying "culture" of Hooo Rahh and Semper FI and all that jazz contributes to the barbaric and illogical nature....it is again...your responsibility and YOUR FAULT.

Now you guys wanna talk about being "real men" yet fail to do what real men do....see the folly in your ways, appreciate logic, and turn your life around. You are mostly children stuck in a mindset of tribalism. You have achieved in all your years, being part of a glorified gang and deluded yourselves your are special.

What a mind job it must be to be you. But humans justify anything to keep their pride, don't they?

Originally posted by chiron613
Although you may argue that the wars being fought now are not legitimate, the people who have volunteered to fight those wars are, for the most part, heroes. Some people honestly believe in their country and its government. These people may not have had an opportunity to have their consciousness raised. They may have bought into the stuff they were taught in school. Whatever. Almost all of us, at one time, were brainwashed.

So maybe these volunteers are misguided. Let's just say they are. What they are doing is still being heroes. They are doing what they believe to be right. They are risking their lives for what they believe their country justly asks them to do.

It's easy to sit around at your computer and knock people you don't know. It's easy to judge, when you're comfy and warm, and no one's shooting at you. It's easy to criticize when you've got a safe place to be, food, water, all that good stuff. In the comfort of your home, with a full belly, it's easy to look down on those who might be fighting in a war you don't approve of.

But these people are facing violent death every day. They live under conditions that most of us would find intolerable. They suffer and endure, because they thought they were doing something good. Even if you disagree with them, they have put themselves on the line for what they believe. That's more than most of us ever do.

I say they are heroes, almost all of them. Sure, there are a few thugs and bullies in there, as there are in every group. Sure, some are in it for reasons other than ideals. But most are in the military because they believe they're doing something good and useful.

But the fact is that no matter how much they believe they are doing something right and fighting for our freedoms, they aren't. They've been duped.

They're heroes in my book. They're out there putting it on the line for us, risking their lives and their futures, fighting for what they believe is right.

Putting there life on the line for us? Tell me how going to war in Iraq is putting there life on the line for us? How could you say that?

reply to post by chiron613


Perhaps we need a clearer definition of the word 'hero'

A Firefighter who puts his life on the line each day to save the lives of strangers - Hero.

Paramedics, the guys who have to hold people together long enough to get them to hospital, Heros

Cops who have to clean up crimescenes or recover bodyparts from car wrecks and railwaylines - Heros

Nurses on 12 hour shifts - Heros

Civilians - kids, who carry on with their lives after having their limbs destroyed or burnt with white phosphorus - Heros.

Servicemen who go to distant lands, to 'help' people with their guns, and persue glory??

Sorry but they dont fit on my list, no matter how well intentioned or misguided they may be. Telling them they are heros just puts your seal of approval on their actions. If they want to be real .heros, they need to change their jobs

I'm a vet and I think this thread was created by a idiot who probably has never spoken to a vet about the subject and is only looking at it from the viewpoint of a commercialism hater.

After 9 pages and no reply, he's also a coward.

No need to say anything else because the first reply was on target.

b

"The soldier, above all other people, prays for peace, for he must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war. " - General Douglas MacArthur

War is a terrible thing - I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like. My gratitude goes out to all of the brave men and women who have served to protect this country and what it stands for. Thank you.

I call bull# on this statement. You say that Veterans day is only for legitimate, according to Hoyle freedom fighters. They are the only ones eligible for our thanks. WRONG!

Every single person that has ever fought in combat for my country IS a freaking hero. For one reason if nothing else, I DIDN'T HAVE TO.

I don't give a # what the war was caused by. Hitler, DuPont, Haliburton..doesn't mean a flying freak to me. Fact of the matter is those conflicts were going to happen anyway and for someone to stand up and say they would go means that they went in my stead. They fight, and die so I don't have to.

That's a god damned hero in MY eyes.



[edit on 12-11-2009 by midnightbrigade]

Then according to your "logic" anyone who fights a war in Americas name is a 'hero' no matter what the reasoning. Hmmmm

Brown Shirts said the same and did the same. I'm sure Mao and Stalin's peeps felt the same way. Romans too. And I'm sure those dead Eyerackies that were known as Freedom Fighters to their countrymen are also "heroes" too. It's all subjective isn't it?

reply to post by Icerider

All of those examples of people who are working in those service jobs, that you identify as "hero" exist both in and out of the military.





[edit on 12-11-2009 by LadySkadi]

None of us who have served ever called or considered ourselves heroes. That was something the mostly clueless civilians foisted on us.

Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW

Originally posted by daddymax
reply to post by Ulala

 

This from a child who does not have the testicular fortitude to man up and voluntarily put himself in the position to protect his home, family, and way of life.

Grow some hair down there...spend a single enlistment doing what it takes to protect you and yours from the way of life others think you should have...and then I may give your opinion any symbolance of consideration!

Until then, you are just another coward exercising the freedoms you were given by all of us non-heroes.

Happy Veterans day...to ALL of our Heroes, both fallen and standing tall!

Wrong again, you did not GIVE ANYONE those rights. The Constitution and the Bill of Rights does. Iraq didn't invade us(the first time or the second), the Viet Cong had no mission to invade the U.S., Afghanistan did not either.

And let me guess, "real men" enlist for wars of profit and resources huh? You fought for General Electric and DuPont...not our FREEDUMBS.


Now when will YOU thank the Founders for rebelling against Britain? Or will you appeal to emotions and fantasy about "bravery" till the day you die? Because quite frankly, that dog won't hunt to anyone with an understanding of history.

Tell me what war you fought in and I'll tell you if I think you're a "hero". Something tells me you're not in your 80's and didn't dance to Glenn Miller songs. But you might surprise me.

How is it that I should

thank the Founders for rebelling against Britain

...would I do that by raising the Flag that I love, because of what it symbolizes, and respect the men who did what the bravely did in order to keep the freedoms you spit on...

or should I write a thread, on their day, chastising them because I don't feel calling them Heroes, on their day, is justified?

You are right in one stance...I am not in my 80's...but my 30's. I DID get to play around in some deserts, and trees. I DO NOT advocate this, nor really any of our conflicts, but I ABSOLUTELY revere the men and women who have enough respect and love for themselves and others to "protect US".
I disdain anyone who sits in the comfort of their homes, eating the fabricated foods, speaking whatever language they wish, having any picture or item of any religious figure they wish on the wall...or none at all, should they choose...speaking derogatorily about anyone who serves because they think the American way of life is not worth the blood spent to have it!

I am NO Hero...but I am a Veteran...and have earned my right(s) to say whatever I want. Until you have the conviction to do anything for everyone, you deserve nothing from anyone. IMHO

______________________________________________________________

Side note:

I am a redneck...I am very confident that I don't need a uniform to protect me and mine from you and yours. I don't need a grocery store to eat, or central heating and air to weather the elements, and I damn sure don't need a police force to protect my family from the boogey man!

I would put a dollar down on the fact that when TSHTF, it'll be a veteran that has to save your military bashing, video game playing, disrespectful ass...and the rest of your soft generation...

but I'll be fine

Originally posted by Bspiracy
I'm a vet and I think this thread was created by a idiot who probably has never spoken to a vet about the subject and is only looking at it from the viewpoint of a commercialism hater.

After 9 pages and no reply, he's also a coward.

No need to say anything else because the first reply was on target.

b

Notice how most of the "Vets" in this thread claim the OP is suffering some form of "Idiocy"? And then appeal to emotion by invoking the "you never served...you should enlist...you don't understand" mantra.

Here's a hint...you are all (most) suffering a mass delusion of an armed cult hive mind, created by bankers, lobbyists, weapons manufacturers, politicians , and media.
I don't envy you.

reply to post by Prove_It_NOW


Yes it is subjective. American servicemen are hero's to me, an American. I'm not speaking on the cause, action or justification. That's your troll argument. I quite literally said what I meant. If someone takes the hit for me, then they are a hero to me and I will honor them as such.

BTW, all the armies you mentioned (Other the offensively slanderous way you spelled Iraqi) were conscripts. Ours is volunteer of course. They volunteer to possibly die, so we don't have a draft and I'm forced to go. OR you. (If you're even American.)

reply to post by LadySkadi


True, but if they are working to aid the military, it isnt quite the same, is it? The military is hardly ordinary people going about their 'normal' business, unless you consider a state of war normal.

Any role within the military is basically aiding the war effort, and unless that war is justified its difficult to see how any positive values can be attached to it.

Whats more, I havent yet seen any Nam vets on here posting regarding how poorly they have been treated after service, talking about their post traumatic stress disorder, or the ones suffering from Gulf War Syndrome, and the struggle they have buying meds, no comment about the gi's wife on the news last night whos son is autistic, but can get no help from the military. And how about all that DU dust their breathing in? Perhaps all those stories are fabricated? If these people are heros, let them be treated as such by the government they served, rather than given fancy words to placate them.

I feel for these people, I have compassion for them, if they are idealistic, but my advice is, don't be fooled into fighting someone else's crusades.

How is it that I should

thank the Founders for rebelling against Britain

...would I do that by raising the Flag that I love, because of what it symbolizes, and respect the men who did what the bravely did in order to keep the freedoms you spit on...

or should I write a thread, on their day, chastising them because I don't feel calling them Heroes, on their day, is justified?

You are right in one stance...I am not in my 80's...but my 30's. I DID get to play around in some deserts, and trees. I DO NOT advocate this, nor really any of our conflicts, but I ABSOLUTELY revere the men and women who have enough respect and love for themselves and others to "protect US".
I disdain anyone who sits in the comfort of their homes, eating the fabricated foods, speaking whatever language they wish, having any picture or item of any religious figure they wish on the wall...or none at all, should they choose...speaking derogatorily about anyone who serves because they think the American way of life is not worth the blood spent to have it!

I am NO Hero...but I am a Veteran...and have earned my right(s) to say whatever I want. Until you have the conviction to do anything for everyone, you deserve nothing from anyone. IMHO

______________________________________________________________

Side note:

I am a redneck...I am very confident that I don't need a uniform to protect me and mine from you and yours. I don't need a grocery store to eat, or central heating and air to weather the elements, and I damn sure don't need a police force to protect my family from the boogey man!

I would put a dollar down on the fact that when TSHTF, it'll be a veteran that has to save your military bashing, video game playing, disrespectful ass...and the rest of your soft generation...

but I'll be fine

Your whole post is based on the premise that you are "protecting the Freedoms" of us all. How can your post stand any test when it's base argument is wrong? You just ranted about a false premise. Congrats.

"I am NO Hero...but I am a Veteran...and have earned my right(s) to say whatever I want. Until you have the conviction to do anything for everyone, you deserve nothing from anyone. IMHO"

Your delusional hive mentality, the collective you associate yourself with (armed forces), causes you to feel that you have a "right" and "earned" something before the rest of us. Entitlement is great isn't it? What you mean to say is "Until you have the conviction to join the military and do what I did, you don't deserve anything".

Side Note:

The redneck self identity isn't surprising, but congrats.

Now a little about my self. I'm trained in survival, street kid turned patriot. I'm fully self sufficient and do not need a uniform to defend me. I will do fine.

Now I agree that when the SHTF Vets and military people will be the first to step up. And 'redneck' types also. But until that time happens, I will gladly point out where you guys are full of ever loving "S" and call you on it.

But when that happens, I doubt most of the vets/ redneck "types" will even know what to stand up for because there seems to be delusions going on in both camps. Hence why no real revolution will ever be realized.

By the way, I'm in my mid 30's, own my own home based business, and only play Yahoo Chess once a week. Your delusions about who's on the other side of the computer don't serve you well.



[edit on 12-11-2009 by Prove_It_NOW]

Originally posted by Icerider
reply to post by chiron613

 

Perhaps we need a clearer definition of the word 'hero'

A Firefighter who puts his life on the line each day to save the lives of strangers - Hero.

Paramedics, the guys who have to hold people together long enough to get them to hospital, Heros

Cops who have to clean up crimescenes or recover bodyparts from car wrecks and railwaylines - Heros

Nurses on 12 hour shifts - Heros

Civilians - kids, who carry on with their lives after having their limbs destroyed or burnt with white phosphorus - Heros.

Servicemen who go to distant lands, to 'help' people with their guns, and persue glory??

Sorry but they dont fit on my list, no matter how well intentioned or misguided they may be. Telling them they are heros just puts your seal of approval on their actions. If they want to be real .heros, they need to change their jobs

wow
thank you..really..i'm shocked...other than a free coffee sometimes (because I think the only people that really appreciate us are those that have needed us, and those that work at convenience stores and some dunken donuts :p..odd huh lol) We don't get all the coupons, multi-thousand dollar sign-on bonuses every few years, insta-credit, gi-bills, or the red carpet rolled out for us everywhere we go...seriously, I don't know how any GI can feel under appreciated today.

But I've been fighting a war everyday for the last 20 years or so, and continue to do so, as do all my brothers and sisters, every single day. And if you don't think its a 'war', I have a few friends graves I can take you to. Killed not in a foreign war, but here at 'home' taking care of citizens (oh, and GI's).

And I can very comfortably say that we don't get #$&% for doing it. Much less a freaking national holiday.

I will say tho that inside the military there are some brothers and sisters that I am very proud of that fight the same fight I do, and there are some soldiers that I would gladly have covering my six. But like the second poster said, they don't consider themselves heroes (nor do I consider myself one).

The heroes are the ones that we will not forget.

Thanks Icerider



[edit on 11/12/2009 by toepick]