To those who have served ... you're not all heroes

Blame it on the rich old white men.

If it wasn't for them, there wouldn't be an Iraq or Afghanistan War or War on Drugs.

reply to post by argentus


I would have to respectfully disagree that the timing of this thread is malicious or insensitive. Today is a day where many people are thinking of the veterans and current soldiers, it is only natural to speak about this topic on a day that centers around our armed forces. I believe it does a disservice to those who fought for our freedoms to paint all service men/women with the same brush.

As a child I was taught that on veterans day we remember those who fought, not to glorify their deeds but to remember the pain and the senselessness of war. Yet here we are in the midst of another senseless war; that is what I find to be the greatest disrespect to our veterans.

reply to post by Ulala



I, like many on here, have served, as did my father, my mothers father, uncles on both sides, cousins and more than a few friends. We took an oath to serve regardless of our individual reasonings, for the defense of this country and regardless of the sacrifice. We left the comfort of home, hugged the parents, siblings and loved ones. Did it knowing it was/is possible we may not hug them again, but we proceeded with our commitment. We aren't heroes, we were doing our job. I personally still don't know how to address someone who says "thanks" in reference to veterans day. I was just doing my job.

Versus flame you, I'd rather offer you a challenge. Step down from the soapbox, close your pie hole and serve this country, then tell me why servicemen/women do not deserve this one official day of recognition.

i think all the wars have been contrived, and agree for the most part with the author. But I would recommend the author research the premise behind the US entering the war. Pearl Harbor was a red flag operation. And anyone proud of dropping two nuclear devices on the Japanese should be subjected to the same horror. The bombs DID NOT need to be dropped, and the Japanese were used as guinea pigs. The US made surrender conditions so unbearable and disrespectful that Japan would have never signed such an agreement.

there is nothing to be proud of on Veterans Day, but I do respect those in the military for they do not understand what this F'd up world is all about. Believe me I know...I have two sons serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. And they are smart enough to see what this war is all about.

We are not fighting a war. Let me repeat that...WE ARE NOT FIGHTING A WAR. We are using brute force against sovereign countries and innocent people to secure land rights, natural resources and to destroy cultures (i.e., westernization). The US is a killing machine under the control of inbred, arrogant, wealth elitists. As soon as you figure that out, you will see what few other like myself see.

AND yes I have served in the US military during Vietnam. So I am more than entitled to have my opinion!



[edit on 11-11-2009 by allclear]

These "veterans" and "heroes" certainly are not fighting for me. I don't even get the same rights as a majority of the American public. It boggles my mind that people expect me to support our troops. Maybe it's because I'm young? I don't know... but people say I should support the troops regardless of how I feel about politics. I didn't choose to join the service though, and I don't have to support a country's veterans or serviceman, when I don't even have equal rights... or believe in what we are doing. I was 15 when 9/11 happened... and that day changed my perception forever of what I thought it was to be an American. I had people in my Tuxedo shoppe today asking for discounts, some getting disgruntled about us not offering any, but why should someone get a discount for supporting a government that doesn't have our best interest at hand.

reply to post by allclear


So you're basically saying that your family history and livelihood basically depended on the MI complex? That's lovely isn't it? What would the bulk of the country do if there was no war? We think unemployment is bad now? If our $600+ military budget was cut in half it would be economic suicide. Does it not bother people like you that the US spends THAT MUCH MONEY on our war machine? Because let's face it.........we have MORE than ENOUGH military prowess to protect our national and international interests.

It's not only what this war is about. It's what US foreign policy, militaristic/imperialistic, is about. That's the problem. Let's be honest...........most of the soldiers serving in the military are idealistic and I hate to say it but uninformed. Do you see Harvard graduates lining up to serve this country? Why is it that a majority of soldiers, the ones actually pulling the trigger on the frontlines are mostly middle class, rural, hardly college or advanced educated? Ask yourself why is that? War has ceased being about preserving freedom, defending the Constitution these days. Maybe that whole mantra ended with WWII, which in and of itself had a lot of suspect things about it. But war nowadays is completely pointless and useless. I mean seriously think about it........9/11 killed 3000+ Americans? SO WHAT? Does that give us the right to go kill several hundred thousand? Regardless of if they are Taliban, insurgents, or women and children? Can you having two sons who have served honestly say the US military hasn't killed 3000 innocent civilians in the two recent wars? Can you honestly say that? That's not even taking into account all the soldiers that have died. Seems to me like we have more than AVENGED 9/11.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Zosynspiracy]

This thread is right on! The whole point of rememberence day is to glorify war and to make us feel it was justified. Its total hypocrisy.
Both my grandfathers fought in ww2 and they were true heros, protecting their homeland and their families from a genuine threat. But you know, when they got back to blighty, and got demobbed, they then had to face unemployment and they had to fight for every little bit of help they got. One of them served in North Africa, and Italy, he was taken prisoner TWICE (he escaped once), and was evacuated at Dunkirk. He had to buy his own medal commemorating that.

As long as there is greed there will be conflict .
As long as there are parents who are proud to see their children conned into going to war 'for their country' there will be armies.
Whether you are killing for the USA, or the Queen, or yahweh, or Allah, or just for the money, YOU ARE KILLING!

The west has no right to militarise the rest of the world under a banner of false flag operations. Action in Iraq and Afghanistan isnt protecting your country.

I salute those who have served against genuine threats, i.e. when Hitler was 'coming up the garden path', but a career soldier is exactly that, not a hero, just a stiff with a gun.
I've seen and heard the footage of G.I.'s killing civilians for fun, whooping and cheering, yeah, real heros.

How about Blackwater, are they heros too?
I know you SOME of you vets are in denial, but at least a few of you realise how youve been duped. If you really believe all TPTB BS what the hell you doing on here?
Damn right I'm a coward - I'm not laying down my life for Halliburton or Exxon!
If that makes me chicken, well, bok bok bok.

Remember The old lie - Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
Quintus Horatius Flaccus Died 8BC

And people still buy that today? Jeez.

Wow....I almost can't believe this thread was made. When you come face to face with a terrorist, come back and tell us what being a veteran means. Combat is nothing like you may have seen on the brainwash tube. You sir, make me sick.

yes ,it is,its far far worse than you can imagine...
constant stress ,pressure,seeing your people killed for no reason..... in countries like IRAQ USA is the terrorist......spreading terror everywhere....
I AM GLAD someone else thought that too..

Originally posted by bvproductions

I try to imagine what it would feel like to have a foreign country invade our country; to have curfews set, to see our buildings be toppled each day for our own 'safety', to hear or witness or experience the death of our friends, family, co-workers, etc. on a daily basis, to witness heavily armed soldiers constantly around your neighborhood near your children, never knowing when there may be a "bad apple" that decides to kill you.

Theres always one idiot who will come out of the woodworks and create a stupid post thinking he's making a revolutionary thread. For one. According to your location Im going to assume your not even American, So veterans day doesn't even concern you, Your opinion on american affairs does not matter. For two. What were you doing while the real men were being shot at?

reply to post by Icerider


Good post! I love your term career soldiers because that's also very much part of the problem with the US military. It's one thing to be drafted and fighting for your country due to a threat like Hitler, which was the case for the WWII generation. It's another thing to be a career military person who's sole livelihood revolves around wars and constant battle. The average WWII or hell even Vietnam soldier was hardly a "career" soldier. I think that's the other problem with our military. It's a ever engulfing beast......it's like a huge corporation.......constantly expanding, constantly seeking out new avenues of growth and profit. It's sickening really.

reply to post by Icerider


GREAT POST MAN........ thank god everyone is not blind...
meaningless blind patriotism can be find in many people

reply to post by Zosynspiracy


dude...you should go back to school for reading and comprehension.

Now reread my comment, and you'll see your response is missing the issue.

Geesh...you guys are ready to fight the guy who is actually on the same side as you!!!

I'm sure my great-grandfathers and thier brothers, who served in WW2, would read this thread and regret their contribution in the European theater. I wonder how things would have turned out if the U.S. had minded their own business and focused on the Pacific. Sprichst du Deutsch?

Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by Ulala

 

You should thank a Veteran and those currently in service that you even have a right to post such a thing. If you did this in Sadaam's Iraq they probably would have cooked you and ate you for dinner.

Enlighten me how a Vietnam vet, Iraqi vet, Afghan vet, made it possible for me to exercise my Freedom of Speech today? The Bill of Rights gave me that right, what Veteran is responsible for that?

Veterans like Adams, Washington, Jefferson, Paine? You mean those VETS?

Haliburton Oil Guard #38495 did NOTHING for me, what juice are you sipping?

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Prove_It_NOW]

reply to post by Prove_It_NOW


Exactly! Let's not even try to compare the Revolutionary War heroes of this great country with the 21st century US military.

Anyways, On veteran's day I always pull up this blog and the corresponding reply by a Vietnam Vet: I think it paints a good picture on just how entrenched militarism is in the American psyche! Please read.....

freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com...

Marc Adin's Response........(maybe he's an ATSer? LOL)

mr. dubner,

only people who have never been in a war would describe it the way these “thoughtful, varied, and independent mindset[s]” have done. i was an infantryman in a war. i know my ‘12 replies’ to what war is, is at least based upon my five senses:

1.] defecating in my pants because i couldn’t sit, stand or crouch, without being killed, for 14 hours; 2.] then when i could move, dragging a dying, fellow soldier and his intestines strung out 5 feet or so behind him 50 meters to a medic who told me he was dead; 3.] not sleeping more than 3 hours at a time for 3 months; 4.] not taking a shower or bath for 40 days; 5.] giving a 4 or 5 year old child an opened can of fruit cocktail, and watch her walk 30 meters and step on a small mine; 6.] then trying to stop the the spurting blood pulsing from wherever her leg and groin used to be while i screamed for help while she turned a gray-blue and died; 7.] not being in any kind of shelter, outside during the monsoons for 10 days, in 45 degree weather and gusting winds, watching as my skin shriveled like a white prune, as scratches became sores and sores became a greenish oozing mass; 8.] being so bored that i would put gunpowder from a .50 caliber bullet on a beetle as big as plate, light it and bet with my fellow soldiers how far it would run before it turned over and popped; 9.]throwing a peanut m&m at at an officer after he berated me because i failed to stand up and salute him when he passed by, and then being threatened with a court martial for ‘assaulting an officer’; 10.] being wounded in the mouth by a fragment of the vertebrae of the soldier 5 feet in front of me as his back blew open; 11.] crying myself to sleep at night until i believed i was immortal and could not die; 12.] seeing a young kid beheaded a few yards away from me, suddenly, and watching the head bounce into a small filthy ditch.

you and your bright, articulate cadets don’t have the slightest idea of what you are talking about. another memorial day is upon us. instead of inane nostrums that are disconnected from the pure obscenity that war is, write down my 12 answers and read them every day, so you memorize them. then the next time the question arises, you, your bright cadets and people who know nothing of war, will at least have some picture of what war truly is, rather than what you “wish the rest of the world knew” about what a fine institution west point may be. it goes like this: west point trains young men and women to fight war, and war is… what, again?
— Marc Adin

Originally posted by Doc Tesla
Every time there's a holiday there has to be one troll who has to start a thread against it.

obvious troll is obvious

Every time there is a dissenting thread against said Holiday, there is always a troll who comes along and calls people "trolls' for their dissent.

Obvious troll is obviously trolling the obvious troll.

reply to post by Ulala


This from a child who does not have the testicular fortitude to man up and voluntarily put himself in the position to protect his home, family, and way of life.

Grow some hair down there...spend a single enlistment doing what it takes to protect you and yours from the way of life others think you should have...and then I may give your opinion any symbolance of consideration!

Until then, you are just another coward exercising the freedoms you were given by all of us non-heroes.

Happy Veterans day...to ALL of our Heroes, both fallen and standing tall!

Originally posted by Icerider
This thread is right on! The whole point of rememberence day is to glorify war and to make us feel it was justified. Its total hypocrisy.
Both my grandfathers fought in ww2 and they were true heros, protecting their homeland and their families from a genuine threat. But you know, when they got back to blighty, and got demobbed, they then had to face unemployment and they had to fight for every little bit of help they got. One of them served in North Africa, and Italy, he was taken prisoner TWICE (he escaped once), and was evacuated at Dunkirk. He had to buy his own medal commemorating that.

As long as there is greed there will be conflict .
As long as there are parents who are proud to see their children conned into going to war 'for their country' there will be armies.
Whether you are killing for the USA, or the Queen, or yahweh, or Allah, or just for the money, YOU ARE KILLING!

The west has no right to militarise the rest of the world under a banner of false flag operations. Action in Iraq and Afghanistan isnt protecting your country.

I salute those who have served against genuine threats, i.e. when Hitler was 'coming up the garden path', but a career soldier is exactly that, not a hero, just a stiff with a gun.
I've seen and heard the footage of G.I.'s killing civilians for fun, whooping and cheering, yeah, real heros.

How about Blackwater, are they heros too?
I know you SOME of you vets are in denial, but at least a few of you realise how youve been duped. If you really believe all TPTB BS what the hell you doing on here?
Damn right I'm a coward - I'm not laying down my life for Halliburton or Exxon!
If that makes me chicken, well, bok bok bok.

Remember The old lie - Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
Quintus Horatius Flaccus Died 8BC

And people still buy that today? Jeez.

What he said!!

reply to post by Prove_It_NOW


LOL not only that......there seems to be A LOT of star and flags for the anti-war crowd in this thread. Also Id say this thread is pretty evenly matched and divided between the militaristically entrenched America hoo yah crowd and the more rational there is something seriously wrong with American foreign policy and the US military crowd.