To those who have served ... you're not all heroes

reply to post by December_Rain


Shame on the U.S. Army? So the entire Army should be hung out to dry for the actions of a few Soldiers? I do not agree with this. Yes, shame on those Soldiers, and their supervisors, but not the entire Army.

reply to post by December_Rain


So what is your and the OP's point, anyway?

Every single veteran who's replied has agreed with you that not all vets are heroes.

You guys can't seem to take "yes, I agree, not claiming it" for an answer.

I've known some officers & NCOs so incompetent or such sorry excuses for a human being that they were lucky to survive combat because it was a tossup whether to shoot the enemy or them. I've known a few who I strongly suspect lost the debate.

Any outfit big enough to have a hierarchy includes some jerks.

That list of professions you blindly cite as being more worthy of honor than vets, like cops...just look how often they are caught on video abusing the very people they're supposed to protect? They rape, abuse, extort, frame, torture, and kill innocents far more frequently than soldiers, sailors and airmen do. Some firefighters have been jailed for setting fires. Some nurses have been executed for murdering patients. Priests & ministers do unspeakable things. And civilians, my god, civilians do absolutely everything!!!

My point is, every grouping you can think of has a subset of jerks and rotten-to-the-core people. You shouldn't generalize from the few to the many.

The question shouldn't be:

Are any of them despicable?

but rather:

What proportion of them are despicable and who exactly are they?

I respectfully submit that the military services have a lower than average number of despicable types for these several reasons:

Honor, competence, skill, endurance, courage, coolness under fire, mutual respect, tolerance, thoughtfulless, honesty, and ingenuity are all things that are enforced, tested and demanded officially, unofficially, and by every situation you have to deal with. Not many who fail to fulfill most of those words last too long, mostly because they weed themselves out.

That's just the job qualifications, and don't define a hero. But it does define someone you owe a bit of respect to, even those who weeded themselves out, because they at least tried, even if they didn't quite make it. You might not agree with the basejumpers climbing a famous building and jumping off it, but you gotta give them props for having the skill set to do it.

In the end it comes down to your unwillingness to offer any respect whatsoever.

You and others tar vets with a broad brush, blaming them for policy mistakes made by the civilian leadership without owning your responsibility for electing those clods in the first place. Did you read the Taguba Report about Abu Ghraib? While I don't excuse the behavior in any way, shape, or form, the root cause was CIA and other spook interference and disruption of military discipline.

I truly don't understand your stance. Vets are not mindless pawns any more than you are, because we ARE you. We've travelled further, done more, seen more, and hurt more than you do or have, but we come from the same place.

Again...what is your point?

[edit on 17-11-2009 by apacheman]

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by December_Rain

 

Again...what is your point?

[edit on 17-11-2009 by apacheman]

To those who have served ... you're not all heroes .
Second line.

reply to post by brainranger


Shame on the US Army because they failed to bring justice on their own soldiers in a riightfull manner. Shame on US Army because they let these "sadists, uneducated, low life scum" get away with a discharge and a minor sentence of 2-3 yrs (which probably will be cut off to few months for "good" behaviour).

Shame on US Army for letting these incidents continue under their nose for months if not years, even when certain people raised their voice against it. Shame on US Army for not adhering to law and prosecute these soldiers under war crimes, crimes against humanity, torture, murder as they should have been.

Most of all shame on US Army for continuing to hide facts under rug till date and failing to conduct a proper investigation and bringing all who were responsible from the Top to bottom to justice.

Edit: This is to add, shame is for the US Army General/ High and mid ranking Army people who did'nt do anything to uphold the law, to those soldiers who turned blind eye..noone else in US Army who did'nt have powers within law to take action.

[edit on 17-11-2009 by December_Rain]

Originally posted by December_Rain
reply to post by brainranger

 

Shame on the US Army because they failed to bring justice on their own soldiers in a riightfull manner. Shame on US Army because they let these "sadists, uneducated, low life scum" get away with a discharge and a minor sentence of 2-3 yrs (which probably will be cut off to few months for "good" behaviour).

Shame on US Army for letting these incidents continue under their nose for months if not years, even when certain people raised their voice against it. Shame on US Army for not adhering to law and prosecute these soldiers under war crimes, crimes against humanity, torture, murder as they should have been.

Most of all shame on US Army for continuing to hide facts under rug till date and failing to conduct a proper investigation and bringing all who were responsible from the Top to bottom to justice.

You seem to know a lot on the subject, were you there? Lets rethink these statements that you have made. I am in the U.S. Army, thus when you say *shame on the U.S. Army* are you directing that personally at me?

No doubt I will agree with you that not all veterans are outstanding individuals, but I do not appreciate it when you lump ALL the Soldiers into this, which you do when you say *Shame on the U.S. Army*. How about, Shame on those who knew and turned a blind eye, or you could go so far as to name the individuals that committed the crimes as well as the leadership that knew.

Humiliation is far better treatment than being beheaded with a hunting knife.

I respect your opinions, however I think you should be a little more careful when calling out *shame*.

reply to post by brainranger


Let me re emphasize, if you are in a position in US Army who can take action for eg. General/US Admin. etc. or any such post to bring justice thru law but didn't then yes shame on you too, otherwise what can you do instead of shrug it off..nothing. It's not your fault or any grunt soldiers fault but it's the fault of every officer (high/mid ranking who have powers within Army to act) who failed to bring justice correctly.

Edit:Exactly I mean every person who turned a blind eye or couldve done something..noone else.

I have edited my previous post so as to make clear who I say about thank you for pointing that out brainranger.

[edit on 17-11-2009 by December_Rain]

[edit on 17-11-2009 by December_Rain]

Originally posted by Blaine91555
reply to post by Ulala

 

Your post disturbed me so much, I'm going to write out a check to a local organization that helps returning Vet's. That is my answer and I'm proud to help these young volunteers who risk all for me. I wish I could do more.
(snipped)

I haven't finished this thread yet, but I just had to respond to this reply you wrote to the tr..OP..ll.
Best.
Response.
Yet!

thank you,
sincerely,
preparanoid (retired sgt)

reply to post by December_Rain


The military WANTED to hammer those sadists, but Bush & Co. put political pressure on them to treat them leniently so the responsibility cahin wouldn't be publicly revealed. Why aren't you railing against the architects of that policy?

You don't seem much interested in reason or facts...my bet is that you're one of those "mindless pawns" you seem to think inhabit the military. At least most of your comments seem pretty mindless to me. You've never actually answered anyone with reason or counterfacts, just stuck out your digital tongue and went "nyaaa, nyaa, nyaaa, hate you!"

reply to post by apacheman


I am very much against those policy makers as well. That is why I mentioned above, Army failed to bring all culprits to justice from "TOP" to "BOTTOM".

jam321 this is for you

We Iraqi's think you are all a bunch of killers and that you are the real terrorist and you have do nothing but destroy our country. Insha Allah you will have someone come "liberate" your country and leave it as you have left ours. Get your arrogant head out of the dark smelly place you keep it and stop thinking your BS country is envied by anyone!

What a stupid opinion. You don't know all of the men and women serving and what heroic acts they may have performed during more than likely a nice trip to Iraq or Afghanistan. Saving other soldiers in harms way by putting themselves in danger. I know. I have heard these stories from my son-in-law who just returned after a year in Mosul. He saw things no one should ever see. He loaded other soldiers bodies to send home. Is this war right..Is it justified..Probably not.. I can tell you for sure that my son is a hero..He deserves our support and thanks for his willingness to do his duty without whining and complaining...He's a man a good man and he is only 23 years old,you could trust him with your life...So give me a break with your B.S

Originally posted by Ezzedeen
We Iraqi's think you are all a bunch of killers and that you are the real terrorist and you have do nothing but destroy our country. Insha Allah you will have someone come "liberate" your country and leave it as you have left ours. Get your arrogant head out of the dark smelly place you keep it and stop thinking your BS country is envied by anyone!

"We Iraqis"? You got a mouse in your pocket or something? Who died and left you as Official Iraqi Spokesperson?

Originally posted by Ezzedeen
jam321 this is for you

We Iraqi's think you are all a bunch of killers and that you are the real terrorist and you have do nothing but destroy our country. Insha Allah you will have someone come "liberate" your country and leave it as you have left ours. Get your arrogant head out of the dark smelly place you keep it and stop thinking your BS country is envied by anyone!

I dont agree with your opinion, what happened in your country should never happen anywhere else in the world. It should not be repeated, period.

Not all American's are killers, you are forgetting that many Americans on this board and off the board are also against the illegal war and speak strictly against what happened there. So potraying all americans or any nationality of people in same color is wrong. There are good and bad people everywhere.

Yes I do thnk it is correct that US not envied by everyone and that US action in Iraq was illegal and equivalent to a terrorist act.

Originally posted by December_Rain
Not all American's are killers, you are forgetting that many Americans on this board and off the board are also against the illegal war and speak strictly against what happened there. So potraying all americans or any nationality of people in same color is wrong. There are good and bad people everywhere.

The problem is that most Americans support American neo-imperialism up to some point. Although this is mostly caused by ignorance, it is nevertheless quite offensive to people living anywhere in the world where American neo-imperialism has corrupted their sovereignty and/or their culture, whether it be in Europe, Asia, Africa or the Americas.

Originally posted by Ezzedeen
jam321 this is for you

We Iraqi's think you are all a bunch of killers and that you are the real terrorist and you have do nothing but destroy our country. Insha Allah you will have someone come "liberate" your country and leave it as you have left ours. Get your arrogant head out of the dark smelly place you keep it and stop thinking your BS country is envied by anyone!

Er, excuuuuse me, but it is not Americans who are well-known for having their heads in, near and about "dark smelly places" --- I am pretty sure it's "you Iraqi's" who find yourself in that predicament 9 times a day.

reply to post by Ezzedeen


P.S. At least we are willing to risk our lives to establish and protect the freedom of total strangers as we have proven throughout our history. "You Iraqis" would sign up to fight Taliban just long enough to collect one paycheck then ran. I call that cowardice. I'd rather die with my boots on.

TextCordesman's analysis, perhaps the most comprehensive nongovernmental accounting available, shows the top Iraqi army units in American estimation are at 30 percent of their authorized strength at best. After three years and billions of dollars in training, Iraq's forces still can't provide security to the Iraqi populace.

www.govexec.com...

reply to post by Bombeni


USA certaily didn't brought any freedom to Aghanistan or Iraq....despair, poverty, terrorism etc....yes but little else.

Originally posted by December_Rain
reply to post by Bombeni

 

USA certaily didn't brought any freedom to Aghanistan or Iraq....despair, poverty, terrorism etc....yes but little else.

They tried. They took out Saddam, evil personified and his evil sons. They are failing because the people of those regions are so used to rule by brutality that they cannot embrace anything else. Sad.