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To those who have served ... you're not all heroes

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posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:19 AM
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I have always made the slight distinction between supporting our troops and honoring them for their bravery while not supporting what they are actually doing when it comes to these wars. There is a difference imo. One i don't feel ashamed or unpatriotic when saying. Let's remember that while these wars are not defending the people of America,Britain etc and are only for resources and sphere of influence. You can bet that if there ever does come a day where a war is fought to preserve our countries peoples,laws and freedoms. These same folk will be the ones on the front lines fighting tooth and nail for us.




posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by tamusan
reply to post by jitter
 


Try to encourage them to go to the VA, too! There are still some vets out there that are not getting their benefits.


I know of a few guys, both Iraq and Viet Nam vets, who are in the VA system but still live on the streets. Their minds and lives are shattered.
I think that fact says as much about this country as all the flag waving and "support the troops" rhetoric from the politicians who've had a hand in creating those kind of conditions in the first place.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:21 AM
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reply to post by Silicis n Volvo
 


You know absolutely NOTHING about Afghanistan. It's a tribal based society. Most of the tribes want to be left alone. They don't want a democratic government much like the way the Native Americans wanted to be left alone. It's not our responsibility nor our right to tell other cultures how to live because we think our way of life is the best. The Mayans and Aztecs used to sacrifice human beings to appease the gods. Native Americans probably treated women as poorly as the Taliban do. Was it our right to wipe out an entire group of people in the name of "progress" back then? NO, of course not. But we haven't learned from our mistakes. Look, the world is going to progress and move forward whether the primitive people in the world like it or not. They can adapt which most likely they will or they will fall by the waist side like hundreds of cultures and indigenous people have done in centuries past. But in this day and age to be pillaging and plundering other human beings because their way of life is so alien to us is crazy. There are still tribes in the Amazon that live in grass huts and hunt with spears. I guess we should go in and take over their land and bring them McDonald's and Ipods? The Taliban is not representative of Afghanistan overall. Afghanistan was a pretty modern country before the Russians moved in and the US started supporting the Mujahadeen. Learn your history. I've talked to many middle class and upper middle class Afghanis who used to live there. Most fled when Russia invaded but before that it wasn't the country it is today.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:26 AM
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reply to post by rainfall
 


First of all, you really need to let go of this thought that you are speaking for all of the "intelligent free thinking people around the world". I don't appreciate you telling me that you are speaking to me on my own behalf. You aren't.

Now, unless you are typing this up from Afghanistan or Iraq (and your little location tag wouldn't indicate that this is the case) nobody is occupying your country or torturing your people. Therefore, your decision to label all military personnel of your own country as terrorists is a flawed argument.

Thanks for playing, try again later.

Take care,
Cindi



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:29 AM
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Originally posted by ShadoMan

It is the people at the Top that are the problem - not the every day working guy.


You are wrong, they both are the problem.
The "everyday working guy/gal" is the essential chess piece needed by the "people at the top" to execute their plans.
If the "everyday working guy/gal" refuse to execute it foils the plan of the "people on the top". That's what fighting the power means, not solemnly and mindlessly just keep trotting along to the tune given by the PTB. Remember patriotism should be in favour of the people, not the government that does not care about you.
And this is the problem with so many of the posts bashing the OP, just mindless stupidity spewed out just like the PTB wants to hear it.

You have to choose your battles, not let you government choose them for you.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:31 AM
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I do understand the OP's position and even agree with it somewhat in the sense that nowadays, most soldiers do NOT serve a country or its people, but corporations and special interest groups. Wars - all wars - are rigged. Proof? We invaded both Iraq and Afghanistan as well as Vietnam.

I disagree with the OP in that Soldiers on the battlefield do not display courage and perform extraordinary feats of courage towards one another. And in that sense, even though they don't think of themselves as such, they are definitely heroes.

I've never been in the military. I am an Army brat however, and grew up on several CFBs around Canada until the age of 9 or so. I don't mind taking up arms to defend my family and friends. I don't know about serving a "country" though, since if you research how countries are created to begin with, you quickly find out they are not noble entities to protect. The typical white American man in the U.S. military for instance, is fighting for a country whose race demographics are quickly becoming something other than Caucasian. That makes no difference to me since I'm Native American.

Today's vets had better wake up: the U.S. is dieing from within like the Roman Empire did. And soon there will not be a country to defend. And at that point, there are those who will discover that there is a world of difference between being a warrior and a soldier.

So Veteran's Day (for me at least) is a day to look to the pastand remember and honor the fallen. It is definitely not a day to honor the current military state, its M.O., and its currently enlisted soldiers.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:33 AM
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War, what is it good for? Absolutely nothin'!

“If my soldiers were to begin to think, not one would remain in the ranks” - Frederick The Great

I have a few friends who joined the army.

Although i support them personally, and wish them well, I cant help but feel sorry for them. Sorry because they had no choice.

Everyone of them were troublemakers in school. Unintelligent troublemakers who were destined to end up in the armed forces because it was their only option.

So they joined, and at first they loved it. Assault courses, meeting new friends, firing guns.

But then they were sent to Afghanistan and Iraq.

All of a sudden those assault courses became very real. They watched their friends die off, and realised that they weren't the only ones with guns.

So now they hate it. But they signed up and must 'do their duty'.

So I understand the OP's thoughts.

But its the manipulative unseen powers that are the real problem. Not the poor ignorant foot soldier we see in our newspapers.

War is Hell.

Peace.

Make Wars History



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:34 AM
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Boring...

No one ever responds to my post's


Oh well.... off to be a terrorist US military member.

Good luck and stay safe OP. If the poop were to ever hit the fan your going to need all the help you can get. Fortunately I have about a million brothers in arm's and we watch out for each other.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:35 AM
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reply to post by nethawk
 


Well said my friend. And there have been many Native Americans who have served this country. A country that raped and pillaged their people. I guess we all need to learn how to move on but it's hard when the injustices of the past have not fully been rectified.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:38 AM
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Originally posted by HotSauce

You should thank a Veteran and those currently in service that you even have a right to post such a thing.


First off, I'm not taking a side on this one way or another. I totally disagree with the wars, yet truly am grateful to have our service men and women that serve, each and every one.

But, I'm REALLY sick and tired of hearing this lame ass cliche thrown around.

Could you please tell me when, in the history of the United States, have the citizens of this country EVER been threatened with losing their freedoms or liberties ... other, than from their OWN government?

And I don't want some lame-ass vague example like, "During the Revolutionary War" because that dog don't hunt. If you can't name a specific event, or cite specific material, I don't want to hear it.

Hell, America stayed neutral with regards to Hitler until Yamamoto decided to bring the heat to Pearl Harbor. Germany was never an enemy until we declared war on Japan, and then it was only by default.

The freedoms and liberties that our service men and woman "protect" are being infringed upon EVERYDAY by their bosses in Congress, but I don't hear you saying a damned thing about that. Yet, it's the very first line thrown out when talking about wars in foreign nations, and has no ground with which to be supported in regards to threats to our "freedom".



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:38 AM
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Everybody has the right to their opinions and I respect that. The problem is that if I expressed my opinion of some of your opinions I would be banned from ATS for life. So you got your free shot and I'll keep my opinion to myself because the stuff I scraped off of my shoe this morning is worth more than some of your opinions.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 08:56 AM
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To clarify my stance:

I thank each and everyone of our Vets and active military for having the courage, should another government ever have the audacity to invade our country, to stand up and say they'll fight. However, I realize a conventional war of that magnitude is unrealistic today ... yet, it doesn't change the fact that these men and women have opted to be the first on the lines if this were to happen.

Yet, I have no illusions that these brave men and women fight "for our freedoms, liberties or rights" ... at least, not until I see some of these men and women standing in Congress debating the Patriot Act.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by Prove_It_NOW
 


LOL! I love it when arrogant know it all brats get their little feelings hurt just because they can't compete, and throw tantums!

Looks like some vet some where scored a direct hit. How does it feel to not be able to out-think those you so disdain as "delusional" and "mad"?

Entertainment. Just one more thing vets have guaranteed for us all!


[edit on 2009/11/12 by nenothtu]


Well i agree with him totally. I was in Oman with a lot of other NATO forces when 911 happened. It was in Oman Task force K-Bar was established.
SAS and other (NATO) special units already had people stationed in Kabul among other location at the time. Observing Al Qaeda intelligence. They also worked as our informants about Al Qaeda movements and strongholds.

This whole thing seams to look like a big set up from the beginning. But if you ask questions. They will pool rank on you right away. You are not supposed to ask, but agree. That is the impression i have from my time serving as a Combat Diver.

I to loved my job. It was very fun and there was a lot of action. The pay was very good to. But when i think about the morality behind a lot of the jobs that i did. I am ashamed. A lot of innocent people got hurt because of what we did.

You know. We are not aloud to talk about our jobs because of our own and families safety. But sometimes i feel we are silenced because its not good for civilians to know what we actually do. If we really told people what was going on. Politicians would have a hell of a time explaining our jobs to the common people.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 09:04 AM
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reply to post by Ulala
 


Okay I agree that we must respect the veterans. And to the real war heroes that have fought for freedom must without any doubt get all of the respect, they deserve.

As for the OP concern about this current war, I believe that there is no such thing as a taboo subject. This is one of very high importance. The United States has been doing things under the bush administration, that point out the obvious flaws in logic, and governing, of the nation.

Money is the real issue behind all of the motives of war plans from the US. There is no way the current economic system can survive without war. And espicially without oil . The real issue here, is the lack of faith, in a different type of system. It needs to be incremented and changed in major ways, before we can all benefit from it.

In there lies the real issues of power and corruption. And im sorry to say this but the united States right now, really looks like it's looking for a fight everywhere it goes. And it wouldnt surprise me that in another world war, the axis of evil would not be europe.... if you get my drift.

But that doesnt change anything to the army personnel that have fought and died courageously. This day is about them, not politics. It is a day of respect towards all of the casualties of the human struggle for power.

Hope this puts perspective into the conversation.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 09:05 AM
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Originally posted by Unit541

Originally posted by kommunist

Both the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are ILLEGAL! And you know it.


[edit on 11-11-2009 by kommunist]


Are you really so ignorant as to believe that the soldiers had any choice when it comes to participating? None of them signed up because they wanted to go fight illegal wars. None of them signed up because they wanted to simply lay waste to a country that poses no threat. None of them signed up because they wanted to make life miserable for anyone. None of them signed up because they wanted to make orphans out of innocent children. Grow up.


Then what did they sign up for? This isn't 60 odd years ago you know. No one is forced to join the army. And im fairly sure they all know the risks when they do sign up, and that reason is to go to a war. I personally can't grasp why anyone would join the army when you are married with little kids. Why put them through so much misery and fear?

A hero is someone who is forced to have to do something that they wouldn't normally do. But people in today's army have that choice. They're not heroes, just extremely brave volunteers.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 09:06 AM
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To the OP I think you are jaded with the coverage and actions of soccer moms and the gutter press however I can tell that you have never done anything for your country apart from moan and critisise so your opinion means nothing to me. Go to wards where soldiers have lost legs and arms, fighting an unjust war but fighting in none the less, and spout your garbage, see where it gets you.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by On the level
 





Go to wards where soldiers have lost legs and arms, fighting an unjust war but fighting in none the less......


Therein lies the problem, with emphasis on 'lies'.

Peace.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 09:11 AM
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I concur completely, saving your friend's life in an unnecessary war isn't heroic, its expected. You dont set your friend's house on fire in the middle of the night and rescue them claiming heroics.


There are no winners in war.

The real heroes are the police in rough neighbourhoods, preserving the peace.
The teachers in bad schools who don't give up and strive to make a difference in even one person's life.
The city maintenance workers who keep the infrastructure running.
The doctors saving lives and researching cures for cancer and aids.
And so on.
These are the people who deserve a holiday dedicated to them.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 09:13 AM
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War is never a good thing and should never be depicted as such. As much as we have our heroes so too does the other side. And yes, more often than not bloodthirsty killcrazy kids do indeed enlist and alot of people die.
But with the amount of indoctrination that goes on in our culture as well as the fact that a huge percentage of soldiers come from places where employment is scarce we have to face the fact that to them it's a JOB.
What makes a man a hero? Is it running out into a hail of gunfire to give a morphine syrette to a dying comrade? or is it the fact that he's willing to give everything to ensure his familys' freedom and wellbeing. I don't know. I refuse to brand anyone as a hero. There aren't anymore heroes.
But what we do have are villains. And we got those in spades.



posted on Nov, 12 2009 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by aravoth
Well..... isn't this interesting.

I especially enjoyed the post by the moron on the first page ...


Originally posted by rainfall

S&F for you Ulala


I could not have said it better myself..

To use that word 'hero' on any military personnel today is a disgrace...the word I use is' terrorist.''



My opinion is that the person qouted above should be dropped from a C-130 without a parachute so we can all sit back and watch him/her turn inito the world's largest Lawn Dart. I would even supply the beer to this event. Free admission.

Just my opinion. And we are of course, all free to have those.


So your opinion is this person should be tossed out of a C-130 without a parachute and die because he doesn't agree with your ideology?


ter·ror·ism (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

I think you just reinforced his point.

[edit on 11/12/09 by Chillidog1]



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