Gorbachev Says Obama Should Start Afghan Withdrawal

reply to post by SLAYER69


Yes and child brides in Africa and the far east, forced marriage in India etc etc. Your point is? As for Russian weapon sales, well you don’t think TPTB are all western do you..

What are we fighting for? Against terror or for resources? Remember it’s all been about the terror so far, so you do believe that the Taliban in a hilltop camp plotted 9/11 do you? That the mountain of inconsistencies associated with that event they arranged as well to deflect heat onto the US government? Boy they are smarter than I thought! Sneaky little devils stole all that Pentagon CCTV, must have parked the plane and infiltrated one of the most secure building on the planet before smashing into it.

I say let them get on with it and their customs however offensive they may be to us, and yes an attempt to change ideology has happened which is why the Taliban are not in power and a democratic puppet is in place. You can’t argue with that surely?!?

I kindly answered your questions so what about mine? I am interested in your views.

And keeping things on topic yes I think an immediate withdrawal is appropriate based on the fact it’s a no win situation as I have previously stated. I guess you are pro war, you have not commited yet.

Discredit Gorby all you like but he is entitled to an opinion, one based on firsthand experience in the region equally as you are.. Free speech, I do love a good debate!

reply to post by Bunker or Bust

What are we fighting for? Against terror or for resources?

Take your pick. Again, we can not allow another regional power to dominate and it could easily happen. Taliban is well organized and funded, Iran borders to the east and would like to control Afghanistan and its resources.

The US represents the interests of the West as well as the world in trying to establish a stable sympathetic democratic Afghan government. The US considers the resources to belong to the Afghan people so that is a moot point. At some point the proposed oil pipeline could represent a significant resource to the Afghanis but that is 5 or 10yrs away and some degree of military stability would be required. The oil going through the pipeline would probably go to Pakistan, India and China, all with growing oil needs.

The costs of this war effort are not great considering the possible alternatives.

For all that we waffle around and point the finger at the states, or at Russia, has anyone ever thought to take the time and ponder how Britain fits into the picture, while we are busy digging up things decades past?

I mean, to be frank, practically every major conflict and social eruption in the past century can be drawn back to the British Empires influence on less developed nations, and the void left during the subsequent collapse of said empire.

No offense to Gorby, but as a leader of a country, He didn't do so well. He basically caused his country to dissolve into pieces. I would be looking to that man for any strategic advice.

reply to post by D.E.M.

For all that we waffle around and point the finger at the states, or at Russia, has anyone ever thought to take the time and ponder how Britain fits into the picture,

Brittain and the US have similar interests and have been working side by side through most of this. It has as much or more interest in having military, economic and energy stability.

Well I am British, the old empire screwed up enough of the world and has enough blood on it hands. And to a certain degree we are still paying for those days now, I know my history well enough. Guess based on the comments made it's the US turn, good luck with that as history shows it does not work out too well in the end.

I agree there are some very dangerous parts of the world out there no question at all but you cant change the world long term with bullets and bombs.

The core of the post was a statement that this war cannot be won, I agree with that statement I also tried to provide objective but sharp statements and examples on the related topic. I have yet to see someone step up and explain how it can be won and that the cost in lives and monetary terms is worth it. Nor address any of my direct questions, so it is a bit pointless carrying on with it really as I won't get pulled into a mud slinging match.

A very large number of British people want our troops home, that will become a political chess pawn on the run up to the next election so we will see.. Also alot of people disagree with our deployment to the region full stop based on the WMD lies, we will be voting soon and Labour will be out partly because of that, just another nail in the coffin for them.

British interests (of the people) might be a bit different from what our government fronts at the moment, will be interesting to see if democracy does work.

reply to post by Bunker or Bust


You may have seen this post by Slayer

Hamburg - Britain has quietly urged Afghan's newly re-elected president, Hamid Karzai, to make peace with the less radical part of the Taliban, a German magazine, Stern, claimed Monday. Read more: www.monstersandcritics.com...

A different approach on the part of Karzai with the Taliban.

Here is the reality. You can not militarily defeat a people who will not submit to outside rule or influence.

The Afghani people are tribal people who basically war amongst themselves and with anyone else who stumbles in to their land taking sides with one tribe or another.

Even before the invasion of Afghanistan the Taliban was fighting against the Northern Alliance.

Russians, Americans, Pakistanis, Iranians, each other and who ever, these are people who would rather die than give up their way of life.

They don't understand our concept of governance, or any other nation's or group's concept of governance.

They don't want to understand they aren't going to understand it.

It doesn't matter which pundit you listen too, whose propaganda you go by or what you try to give them or what you try to take away from them.

They are a fierce and independent people living on one of the wildest edges of the globe.

We haven't accomplished one thing there and we aren't going to accomplish one thing there except kill Afghanis and kill Americans and British Troops.

Gorbachev is right and a smart man. We just need to get out of there as fast as humanly possible and if Royal Dutch Shell wants to hire Black Water XE to guard the pipeline that they built and the Chinese want to chip in to have the copper mines they bought guarded too, well there are plenty of people in the world who have a gun and will travel for a paycheck.

The American taxpayer shouldn't be footing the bill. The only entity winning anything as usual is the Military Industrial Complex and the Oil Companies.

[edit on 12/11/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

The only entity winning anything as usual is the Military Industrial Complex and the Oil Companies.

The only entity winning is actually the West because we have relative stability in Afghanistan.

The country has not gone to nuclear Iran. It is not dominated by the mean nasty Taliban, or the not so cooperative Russians, or Turkey or whomever, it is self governed. By an Afghani, Karsai.

Not a great guy but a heck of a lot better than the alternative!

BTW, the oil companies produce the product that will power your car in the morning and the military is the reason you are free and speak English, so it is not all that bad!

I say if WE throw a basketball into a brick wall, and it doesn't go RIGHT THROUGH...

then who are THEY to tell us that the basketball won't go THROUGH??

SCREW THEM!!!

Originally posted by pavil
No offense to Gorby, but as a leader of a country, He didn't do so well. He basically caused his country to dissolve into pieces. I would not be looking to that man for any strategic advice. Most of his high strategy failed miserably.

reply to post by plumranch

BTW, the oil companies produce the product that will power your car in the morning and the military is the reason you are free and speak English, so it is not all that bad!

Guess again! I peddle a bicycle for the expressed purpose of making this first statement not true.

I am the reason I am free and speak English thank you very much!

Karzai couldn't even win re-election without wide spread fraud being used.

At what cost do you really imagine a corrupt dictatorial government like ours who want to put citizens in jail who don't pay a premium 24/7 to gaurantee their own health as slaves to it should pay to keep this war torn remote country under our thumb instead of some other so called opressive power.

The fact that we are there through military force and intimidation and constantly engaged in violence ought to tell anyone with common sense that we are far from welcome and doing nothing but opressing the people as you imagine one of these other countries might.

I will not defend the crimes of those who would be kings and Masters by murder and theft.