Thank You to All You Who Have Served

Preparedness, such as the "fleet in being," and whatever right wingnut paranoia does not equal, one, an actual threat, and two, anything resembling a REAL sacrifice for freedom as in WW2. There are retired Pentagon officials who have admitted that the entire Cold War Soviet threat was deliberately exaggerated in order to justify the existence of the whole Klingon Empire (if you will) war machine. Again, the only argument against my initial statement/question is rhetorical-emotional, not factual. I've seen nothing else on this thread, or at least on this page... or now the previous page.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Dean Goldberry]

Thank you op for making this thread. its much better than certain other thread basically calling soldiers cowards, and scum. i dont know how that is allowed, especially during the poppy appeal, wich helps injured soldiers./wives etc.

reply to post by SmokeyDawn


i think that pizza hut/dominoes/papa jhons give something like 50 percent discount to soldiers, also paramedics/docs/nurses/firemen/policemen.

this is in uk and is all the time. ask if they give discount before ordering.

reply to post by GradyPhilpott


You are way welcome !

Thanks for the thanks !

I didn't serve real long, or get shot at but I worked 12 on 12 off
for longer than I care to remember and a good bit of it a light
shade of green as my ship ran from various storms.

LOL

To those who were injured or lost to us, a special thanks to you
that endured real loss, and your families.

My only loss was some really bad pay, and a lot of time away
from the country I called home.

Good Luck to you all !

p.s.: with what is coming we are gonna need it.

thanks so much and all my heart for our soldiers!!!!

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by December_Rain

Even a public toilet cleaner get's paid for his work while everyone else uses them, where's your thanks to them?

you are right. When one of them takes a bullet to save my ass, I will be sure to say thanks. Until then, I will just tell him he is doing a good job.

Exactly the people in the army they are paid to take bullet, they do not do it for free. That's why they are no hero because hero doesnt get paid for helping other people.

reply to post by December_Rain


any person who would take a bulllit to save my life is a hero to me. They might not think so, but I do. And I don't care if they get paid 6 figures, when the body bag zips up, your bank account is not important. Heroic actions are what separates people form heroes. The janitor I spoke of could be one. He might save the life of a sutdent in his school. But he gets a paycheck too. See the point?

The whole idea of veterans day is to say thanks for serving and thanks to those who have served. Yes solders do get paid, but I can name a thousand other jobs that pay better and don't require you to leave your family for a year to 15 months. They do it for lots of reasons, but every one of them takes an oath to defend their homeland with their lives if nessesary. When I worked at McDonalds in 1985, I don't recall having to take an oath like that. It's a simple little thing. Like saying thanks to the guy who bags your groceries.

Thank you to all who have served.
And for all those who risk their life for others.

It's just too bad they are sometimes used for others' personal gain,
a certain ideology or just an ugly lust for empirical power.
Peace to you and yours!
(However improbable that may be given your choice of profession)

Actually, those people were cops called up to National Guard service, not career military.

So thanks for showing us what the average American cop will do when he thinks he can get away with it.

The reason they thought they could get away with it was because the CIA and other spook agencies told them to do it.

The reason it came out was that career military people persevered through political pressure to ensure exposure, ending, and punishment; unfortunately, the most culpable got off scot-free: Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush and the rest of the neocon cabal.

Those crimes are not condoned by the average grunt of any service of any country, some few excepted.

Originally posted by apacheman
Actually, those people were cops called up to National Guard service, not career military.

Really??

Beginning in 2004, accounts of physical, psychological, and sexual abuse, including torture[1][2], rape[1], sodomy[2], and homicide[3] of prisoners held in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (also known as Baghdad Correctional Facility) came to public attention. These acts were committed by personnel of the 372nd Military Police Company of the United States Army together with additional US governmental agencies.[4]

Source: en.wikipedia.org...

Go figure.

Originally posted by apacheman
Actually, those people were cops called up to National Guard service, not career military.

And as such, aren't veterans?

reply to post by December_Rain


The military consists of members of our society. Our society is not perfect and sometimes members of our military fail to live up to the ideals set for their conduct.

In the United States when members of our armed forces are found to have broken our laws and the terms of the Code of Military Justice, they are brought to justice just as these members were.

Yet, as appalling as these acts were, they pale in comparison to the acts of unmitigated barbarism demonstrated by our enemies in Iraq--suicide bombings and video taped beheadings of innocents.

Yes, they are veterans, but they are not representative of the millions who have served honorably in the defense of freedom around the world for 233 years.

I do not believe that I ever heard one veteran or American try to justify what happened at Abu Ghraib, although most were able to distinguish between these disgusting acts and torture.

It is disgusting and beyond mean-spirited for you to take a thread that is meant to honor the sacrifices of the millions of veterans around the world who serve honorably and turn it into a political field day for twisted minds.

Your life must be a miserable, wretched existence devoid of dignity, honor, or respect for what is decent and good in a world that struggles to manifest such things.



[edit on 2009/11/17 by GradyPhilpott]

reply to post by December_Rain

Thank you all to those who have served and showing us what lies deep inside US Army

Clueless, much?

The members of the military that participated in that travesty are no more indicative of the average member of the armed forces of the United States, then Mickey Mouse is of real live mice...

You really haven't a clue, do you? Do you even know a member of the armed forces? Somehow, I really, and truly doubt it. Or you wouldn't spout off such nonsense...

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
reply to post by December_Rain

 

The military consists of members of our society. Our society is not perfect and sometimes members of our military fail to live up to the ideals set for their conduct.

In the United States when members of our armed forces are found to have broken our laws and the terms of the Code of Military Justice, they are brought to justice just as these members were.

Yet, as appalling as these acts were, they pale in comparison to the acts of unmitigated barbarism demonstrated by our enemies in Iraq--suicide bombings and video taped beheadings of innocents.

Yes, they are veterans, but they are not representative of the millions who have served honorably in the defense of freedom around the world for 233 years.

I do not believe that I ever heard one veteran or American try to justify what happened at Abu Ghraib, although most were able to distinguish between these disgusting acts and torture.

It is disgusting and beyond mean-spirited for you to take a thread that is meant to honor the sacrifices of the millions of veterans around the world who serve honorably and turn it into a political field day for twisted minds.

Your life must be a miserable, wretched existence devoid of dignity, honor, or respect for what is decent and good in a world that struggles to manifest such things.

[edit on 2009/11/17 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by seagull

How my life is, should not be your concern but the subject at hand. Instead of sending personal attacks it would be better to divert your attention to what is being discussed. Or is it becoming a modern fashion on ATS to throw persoal attacks under the guise of wall of text? Actually on second though keep it up, your personal attacks only strengthen my will to speak the truth even more.

What I showed up there was truth and facts, the bare truth and nothing but the truth which noone can deny. To thank "ALL" who have served you are including the people who have not served honourably, you are thanking the entire US Army which failed to bring these people to justice as was required.

You say,

In the United States when members of our armed forces are found to have broken our laws and the terms of the Code of Military Justice, they are brought to justice just as these members were.

Were any of these people prosecuted for physical, psychological, and sexual abuse, including torture, rape, sodomy, and homicide of prisoners held in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (also known as Baghdad Correctional Facility) as should have been? Keeping in mind Nazi soldiers were executed for same kind of crimes, the US Army FAILED to bring these people to justice.

NO, instead the charges filed against them were minor charges, have a look:

The United States Department of Defense removed seventeen soldiers and officers from duty, and eleven soldiers were charged with dereliction of duty, maltreatment, aggravated assault and battery. Between May 2004 and March 2006, eleven soldiers were convicted in courts martial, sentenced to military prison, and dishonorably discharged from service.

Two soldiers, Specialist Charles Graner, and his former fiancée, Specialist Lynndie England, were sentenced to ten years and three years in prison, respectively, in trials ending on January 14, 2005 and September 26, 2005. The commanding officer at the prison, Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, was demoted to the rank of Colonel on May 5, 2005. Col. Karpinski has denied knowledge of the abuses, claiming that the interrogations were authorized by her superiors and performed by subcontractors, and that she was not even allowed entry into the interrogation rooms.

Out of all only 2 soldiers were imprisoned (which probably would be reduced for "good" behaviour), the army which was responsible for these people failed to investigate and bring all criminals to justice from the TOP level to BOTTOM. They failed to uphold the law and noone else but US Army is responsible for it.

Those who were demoted are/would still be serving in army, thus the title of this thread THANK YOU "ALL" WHO HAVE SERVED is laughable at best if not offensive.

Edit: What I say is only for US Army persons who turned a blind eye and could have done something about it but didn't. What I say is to those person in US Army such as General/US Army Admin. and other High ranking and mid-ranking(who had power under US Army law to do something but didn't) people who failed to uphold the law. No matter how many times they take bullets now, they will never be hero...not for me atleast.

[edit on 17-11-2009 by December_Rain]

[edit on 17-11-2009 by December_Rain]

[edit on 17-11-2009 by December_Rain]

reply to post by December_Rain


so what do you suggest? Execute them? Or better yet, abolish the entire military because of these individuals.

Oh, and BTW, don't forget to abolish the NAACP, and UNICEF, and tear down the grocery store you go to. I heard a few people involved with those groups did a few wrong things as well. Do you see what a stupid argument that is? I can find dirt on any group and throw it in your face. But that doesn't make the whole group bad, just the people who did bad things. Hell, for that matter, the entire human race should be blamed and punished since there individuals were in fact human. (though that is questionable)

I thought ATS was a place for thinking people to communicate. That argument belongs in a different arena.

reply to post by December_Rain


Perhaps using the word "clueless" was over the top, for that I apologize. As for the rest? You're wrong, and a little research on your part would prove that to even your satisfaction.

It seems evident that you know nothing, or next to nothing about the military, or how it works. Careers were ended, reputations destroyed...no, few served any time in jail; but hey they've been destroyed otherwise. This travesty will haunt those idiots for the rest of their lives. Any job interview, security screen, even a mortgage application...this will pop up.

No, the punishment they're receiving fits their crime. One doesn't have to go to jail to be punished.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by December_Rain

 

It seems evident that you know nothing, or next to nothing about the military, or how it works. Careers were ended, reputations destroyed...no, few served any time in jail; but hey they've been destroyed otherwise. This travesty will haunt those idiots for the rest of their lives. Any job interview, security screen, even a mortgage application...this will pop up.

No, the punishment they're receiving fits their crime. One doesn't have to go to jail to be punished.

That's the whole thing, the crimes they committed they were nowhere nearly judged according to that.

Here is the list of crimes they committed along with sentencing they should have received under US Laws:
Torture: 20 years and incase of death then punishment by death
a). physical torture
b). psychological torture
c). sexual torture

2. sexual abuse: Life imprisonment or any number of years
a). rape
b). sodomy

3. Homicide - Death /life imprisonment
a) Murder

4. war Crimes (under Geneva Convention) - Death/ life imprisonment

What they were charged with:
1. dereliction of duty - The maximum penalty in the U.S. is a bad-conduct discharge, forfeiture of pay and six months confinement.
2. maltreatment - there is only adult and child maltreatmeant law, couldnt even find this term in any law relating to prisoner
3. aggravated assault - Aggravated assault is usually a felony punishable by a term in state prison.
4. battery - (a) A battery is punishable by a fine not exceeding two thousand dollars ($2,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding six months, or by both that fine and imprisonment.
=================================================
Torture and US Criminal Law
§ 2340A. Torture

(a) Offense.— Whoever outside the United States commits or attempts to commit torture shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both, and if death results to any person from conduct prohibited by this subsection, shall be punished by death or imprisoned for any term of years or for life.
(b) Jurisdiction.— There is jurisdiction over the activity prohibited in subsection (a) if—
(1) the alleged offender is a national of the United States; or
(2) the alleged offender is present in the United States, irrespective of the nationality of the victim or alleged offender.

§ 2241. Aggravated sexual abuse
(a) By Force or Threat.— Whoever, in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal prison, or in any prison, institution, or facility in which persons are held in custody by direction of or pursuant to a contract or agreement with the head of any Federal department or agency, knowingly causes another person to engage in a sexual act—
(1) by using force against that other person; or
(2) by threatening or placing that other person in fear that any person will be subjected to death, serious bodily injury, or kidnapping;
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.
(b) By Other Means.— Whoever, in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal prison, or in any prison, institution, or facility in which persons are held in custody by direction of or pursuant to a contract or agreement with the head of any Federal department or agency, knowingly—
(1) renders another person unconscious and thereby engages in a sexual act with that other person; or
(2) administers to another person by force or threat of force, or without the knowledge or permission of that person, a drug, intoxicant, or other similar substance and thereby—
(A) substantially impairs the ability of that other person to appraise or control conduct; and
(B) engages in a sexual act with that other person;
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned for any term of years or life, or both.

§ 2242. Sexual abuse
Whoever, in the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States or in a Federal prison, or in any prison, institution, or facility in which persons are held in custody by direction of or pursuant to a contract or agreement with the head of any Federal department or agency, knowingly—
(1) causes another person to engage in a sexual act by threatening or placing that other person in fear (other than by threatening or placing that other person in fear that any person will be subjected to death, serious bodily injury, or kidnapping); or
(2) engages in a sexual act with another person if that other person is—
(A) incapable of appraising the nature of the conduct; or
(B) physically incapable of declining participation in, or communicating unwillingness to engage in, that sexual act;
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title and imprisoned for any term of years or for life.

§ 2441. War crimes
(a) Offense.— Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, commits a war crime, in any of the circumstances described in subsection (b), shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both, and if death results to the victim, shall also be subject to the penalty of death.

CHAPTER 51—HOMICIDE
# § 1111. Murder - Death and imprisonment for life

Source: www.law.cornell.edu...
=================================================

Again these are just few of the crimes I put there not even all. The thing that all received adequate punishment and your statement they dont have to be put in jail is absurd at best.

[edit on 17-11-2009 by burdman30ott6]

reply to post by December_Rain


Just the first half of your post is so fraught with mistakes, errors and down right untruths, I can only address that much of it.

the crimes they committed they were nowhere nearly judged according to that.

Your opinion, and wrong, but as you are posting it as fact, I can only surmise you either do not know, or are purposefully being false. (If I understood the grammar correctly)

Here is the list of crimes they committed

Were you there? NO? Didn't think so. So this statement is again an opinion posted as fact and patently incorrect.

Is this a lie, or mistake? An answer would be nice.

sentencing they should have received under US Laws:
Torture: 20 years and incase of death then punishment by death

Which US Law? What is the Statute? What jurisdiction?

You made this up too didn't you? Come on now, admit it....

b). psychological torture

Statute and Code Please?
Or is this made up? An answer please.

2. sexual abuse: Life imprisonment or any number of years
a). rape
b). sodomy

I can prove you made this up.

sodomy Laws have been invalidated by the 2003 Supreme Court decision Lawrence v. Texas. While they were often originally intended to outlaw sex acts between homosexuals, many definitions were broad enough to make certain heterosexual acts illegal as well.

US Laws

OOOPPPSSSSS Caught in one..

3. Homicide - Death /life imprisonment
a) Murder

Is it Homicide or Murder?

In SC, You can get as little as 3 years for non-statutory Murder and in Delaware you can receive less than 3 years PROBATION for some Homicide Charges.

SC Code of Laws

hmmmmmm The inaccuracies are piling up..

4. war Crimes (under Geneva Convention) - Death/ life imprisonment

Link?
Statute?
Any Evidence at all?

The remainder of your posts is worse.

I would suggest to you, get some evidence, some statutes, links, ANYTHING would be better than what you have posted, and come back and I will help clear it up for you some more.

As always, I am here to assist.

Semper

hmm worse, I take proud in it if it's worse/worst. I expect no other reply from you are other people who share your thoughts but truth never hides. No matter how much you try to belittle me for my grammar and english language, the pictures themselves speak thousand words which you can't silence.

9/15/2005 - Army documents show systemic failures in treatment of detainees; contradict report of Inspector General Mikolashek

10/24/2005 - Autopsies and Death reports reveal deaths of detainees in U.S. custody

1/12/2006 - Documents show that the Army received reports of detainee abuse as early as January 2002

2/23/2006 - Further Evidence Senior Officials Approved Abuse of Prisoners: FBI memo details Guantnamo commander's repeated refusal to abandon illegal and ineffective interrogation techniques

4/11/2006 - ACLU Releases First Government Authentication of Abu Ghraib Abuse Images Along With One New Photo

5/2/2006 - Army Documents Show Senior Official Reportedly Pushed Limits on Detainee Interrogations; New Evidence that Government Knew Abuse was Widespread Before Abu Ghraib Photos

7/10/2006 - Department of Defense documents show Pentagon silence led to prisoner abuses

1/2/2007 - Documents obtained from the FBI detail 26 eyewitness accounts by agents of detainee abuse, 17 of which the Bureau apparently chose not to investigate further.

8/15/2007 - New Details of Possible "Cover-Up" of Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

4/1/2008 - declassified OLC memo authored by John Yoo asserting that President Bush has unlimited power to order brutal interrogations to extract information from detainees.

4/16/2008 - Documents describe Charges Of Murder And Torture Of Prisoners In U.S. Custody

4/30/2008 - Newly Unredacted Report Confirms Psychologists Supported Illegal Interrogations In Iraq and Afghanistan

5/14/2008 - Defense Department Documents About Prisoner Deaths And Interrogations

5/20/2008 - Justice Department Report Reveals Senior Government Officials Knew Early On Of Interrogation Abuse But Did Not Stop It

7/24/2008 - Key Memos Authorizing CIA Torture Methods

11/19/2008 - Documents Obtained provide Further Evidence That Abuse Of Iraqi Prisoners Was Systemic

2/12/2009 - Deaths at Bagram Followed Abusive Behavior During and Following Interrogation

3/2/2009 - CIA Informs That Its Personnel Destroyed 92 Interrogation Videotapes

3/6/2009 - CIA Documents State that 12 of 92 Destroyed Videotapes Depicted Use of "Enhanced Interrogation Methods"

6/15/2009 - Heavily Redacted Guantánamo Tribunal Transcripts of Detainees Describing Torture and Abuse Suffered in CIA Custody

8/24/2009 - Detailed Official Record Of CIA Torture Program

10/30/2009 - Documents Related to Bush Torture Program

Source:US Govt. Documents released under Freedom of Information Act

Taguba Report:

The inquiry had begun in January, and was led by General Taguba, who was stationed in Kuwait at the time. Taguba filed his report in March. In it he found:

Numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees . . . systemic and illegal abuse.

Read more: The General’s Report-How Antonio Taguba, who investigated the Abu Ghraib scandal, became one of its casualties.

Torture/Rape/Sexul assault
Taguba Report-ARTICLE 15-6 INVESTIGATION OF THE 800th MILITARY POLICE BRIGADE
Abu Ghraib photos depict rape, sexual assault: ex-US general
Guantanamo is symbol of degraded torture convention: UN rights chief
Abu Gharib Files-Torture Policy
DOJ releases secret CIA interrogation memos
Abu Ghraib abuse photos 'show rape'
US general linked to Abu Ghraib abuse
In a third reported case, witnesses said US guards repeatedly raped a 14 year old girl in 2003.
In a fourth reported case, Senior US officials admitted rape had taken place at Abu Ghraib.
The suppressed fact: Deaths by U.S. torture

Homocide:
Autopsy reports reveal homicides of detainees in U.S. custody

War Crimes:
Reference: International Humanitarian Law - Treaties & Documents

International Humanitarian Law (Law Of War) 1949 and 1977 Conventions and Protocols

Amnesty International USA: Investigation, prosecution, remedy Accountability for human rights violations in the ‘war on terror’

Oh and the laws I posted in my previous posts, I have provided the link at bottom. You will have to click on it.

Were you there? NO? Didn't think so. So this statement is again an opinion posted as fact and patently incorrect.

If I was there, these low life scum would not have been free breathing today but sadly I was not.