Do women have a human right to taxpayer paid abortions? I don't think so!

I am all for health care from the government, but there are some things it should never cover, like Abortion on tap for free, sex changes for free, and some cosmetic upgrades for free.

It's not just abortion there are other area's too.

Who will defend the unborn? It really blows me away how some people spend so much time trying to protect animals, but they don't lift a hand to protect their own species. Sad really.

Who can be for government sponsored genocide?
Genocide of the unwanted unborn(or born), sabotages a civilization, look what happened to the ancient Canaanites.

Today these unborn babies are sacrificed on the alter of Pro-Choice.
Free choice has become a God unto itself, and a destroyer of morality.

Originally posted by djusdjus
You need to understand that you can't pick and choose. You pay your taxes into a pool and it is distributed from that pool.

Your self righteousness is in your position of not only belief but your apparent wanting to force your belief onto someone else. Your belief doesn't matter in established law. You wanna change that? Vote for someone who supports your belief and ultimately will act to legislate something that is abiding by it.

I never forced my belief on you. I stated my belief. I even stated that we'd have to agree to disagree. Apparenly, lost in translation with you.

What you need to recognize though is that this process has already taken place and rule of law outweighs your belief system.

Read my post. I acknowledge this.

What about the fathers? What about them? Why didn't they wear a condom? What if the woman who is having the abortion is raped? Should she be forced to carry the baby to term and then let it go for adoption and then what? What about her psychological needs?

Good questions. Maybe they should have vasectomies before they can procreate. Rape is awful, but is the child responsible? They should be killed in order to hide the evidence of such a heinous crime? In this regards, who is abortion really for? Just a means to cope and forget the tragedy? Is there a fear that the child will be born with the same disposition? Are we so shallow as a species that we could not show love to a child born from rape or incest?

Sanctity of life is one thing, but misconstrued beliefs and attempting to force them onto someone is fascist in spirit.

How wrong you are sir.

But like I said, you're welcome to place your vote in your hopes that someone is on the same thought level as you that can bring change.

Right. Apparently my beliefs make me less intelligent.

It is a democratic society after all. I would remind you again though that it's already been done and those who support your belief have failed while those who support the right thing to do (maybe not in all circumstances) have not failed and have persevered after years of fighting for the right to make a choice for themselves whether or not they want to bring a child into the world.

And after much $$$ lobbying for their cause to ensure that their guy/gal was elected. Even Norma McCorvey has seen the light.

It was my pseudonym, Jane Roe, which had been used to create the "right" to abortion out of legal thin air. But Sarah Weddington and Linda Coffee never told me that what I was signing would allow women to come up to me 15, 20 years later and say, "Thank you for allowing me to have my five or six abortions. Without you, it wouldn't have been possible." Sarah never mentioned women using abortions as a form of birth control. We talked about truly desperate and needy women, not women already wearing maternity clothes.

Anyway, anti-abortionist bleating in a wind storm of reason will eventually no longer be around as education eradicates their simplistic and emotional, irrational and illogical thought forms are turned to dust and dispersed into nothingness once and for all.

Wow, spoken like a true progressive straight from the bowels of intellectualism.

cold and heartless enough for you? Thos are nothing but empty and stupid words aimed from an emotional context with zero knowledge of who I am or what I believe in. Ergo the "self righteous and sanctimonious" remark.

At least I have a heart.

people aren't ignorant because they disagree with your point of view. Perhaps you are ignorant for not recognizing that we all don't hold the same view? Apparently the majority of us don't believe what you believe and if we did, it would be different wouldn't it?

Just because a dem is in the WH makes this the majority thought?

Fine. It's legal. This doen't mean that tax dollars should pay for it.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Freenrgy2]

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Ive seen this argument 100's of times. Interestingly enough, your side ALWAYS uses the exact same words an phrasing.

Why is that?

Because they're brainwashed, religious extremists. They cannot think for themselves, therefore they recycle the same tired garbage, over and over again. They're no different from Al Queda really, just a different book to obsess over. They've already committed terrorist acts, and i believe they've even formed a new terrorist organization that will probably carry out more. Posts like the OP should be looked at the same as a post from a muslim extremist ranting against western values.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2
I think a part of us needs to be inhuman in order to justify this "medical" procedure.

And many think a part of us needs to be inhuman in order to justify our invasion of Iraq and calling it "providing for the common defense".

Your position is no more righteous that the anti-war protester. You both have a right to speak your mind and have your opinions on it, but you don't have a right to pick and choose where your taxes go.

And your position of being more willing to pay to have innocent people killed is certainly no more lofty than a woman who chooses to have an abortion. You're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

How 'bout this. Why don't we give vasectomies and tubalagations to those who we feel are not in the correct demographic group in order to bring a child into this world.

Every example you gave as being on the "slippery slope" was the government IMPOSING action on the people. An abortion is something a person chooses for themselves. Your "slippery slope" argument makes no sense at all.

Originally posted by littlebunny
The left is completely out of control, of course women DO NOT have a right to public funded abortions... How outrageous! It is time to fight fire with fire... Has anyone got a quarter to half a million bucks just laying around? Lets join forces and end abortion in this country... How, give abortion rights to men!


Allow men the right to choose if they will be responsible for her choice or not. Not that men can force or stop a woman from having an abortion, oh no... that has already been settled by the SC. This RIGHT will guarantee all men the right to abort his responsibilities to that fetus before it is born... if a woman can kill it, then men should have the legal Constitutional right to abandon it before it is born... Read more about fighting fire with fire here!


--Charles Marcello

This is a very powerful argument you have brought to the discussion and I never liked the idea that this was JUST a woman’s right to choose, ESPECIALLY when the lions share of the time they choose to execute an innocent human being in the infancy of its stage of life. Who would have ever guessed that civilization would be so barbaric that the most dangerous place for a child to live would be in his or her mother’s womb!

Some here are saying what a man who has NO say whether she kills his son or daughter happens to be 50% invested in that biological phenomena yet if he doesn't want to have children and SHE does, HE is held accountable and financially responsible to pay child support till the child is 18 years of age whether HE likes it or NOT!

Conversely if he wants to take care of his own son or daughter releasing the reluctant mother from all the responsibility but her vanity and imagined life with a few stretch marks being unbearable to her, decides to kill it anyway, HE gets to live with the grief!

A woman’s right to choose? My God people, the very idea that someone would even have to think about such a thing is what Planned Parenthood the most ridiculous name for such an oxymoronic franchise of genocidal infanticide facilities that have ever been accepted as a get out of jail free card man has ever conceived.

The arguments I have seen hot sauce fending off have been OUTRAGEOUS, from those accusing him of being a troll when the very first responders are the ones that directed the op to be about them being PRO Choice having nothing to say about the central issue of tax funding the systematic genocide of Americans whose only crime it is to be the beneficiary of THEE most wonderful opportunity one can have in the entire universe.

LIFE!

That's right, being alive and having the same fighting chance to live life that YOU had! Who do you think you are telling us WE should finance the elective surgery like this? Don't give me this garbage about crime statistics that can't POSSIBLY be calculated in comparisons to those statistics we are forced to speculate on simply because we will never know what the stats would have been had those children lived.

Don't tell me it is inappropriate to call them CHILDREN just because it makes it more sterile to talk about for you. You may TRY to diminish the heinous act by languaging it into nothing more than having a wart removed or flushing a goldfish down the toilet using words like "medical tissue and "Zygote". All that scientific vernacular suggesting it is something but not your son or daughter is pathetic. We have words to distinguish humans at every stage of life from baby to the word elderly. The fetal stage of life doesn't make that life any less precious and valuable. Some of you have claimed these Americans at this early stage of living, are somehow NON persons! This is the same argument the Supreme Court used to give to justify slavery!

Some of you have brought the same old tired "excuses" to justify this immoral unethical elective surgery without providing a single source. Yet when hot sauce suggests the very real truth that almost ALL of these killings are done for convenience sake with another post “Demanding" he proves his claim. Allow me to share with you the grim reality of this repugnant industry you all seem to think the alternative would be some fatherless person who would have had to grow up in a single mom home with even more dire circumstances you prophesy if he would have been born black or some other minority.

I want to know where YOU get your "proof". HOW DO YOU KNOW how they would have grown up?

Does it occur to any of you that our current President of the United States came from very similar circumstances?


But the truth is still back there and often times it haunts the mothers of these abortions years later and more than you know regret it terribly.

Don't give me fallaciously assembled arguments demanding proof of claims when the statistics can be goggled easily.

Here let me help some of you with the math:

Abortion must be available for:

Cases of rape or incest represent only 1% of all cases

Cases of fetal abnormalities represent only 1% of all cases

Mother’s health is at risk Represents only 3% of all cases


So you tell me?? What are the other 95% of them done for that can't be rationally explained away from the most tragic decision a mother will ever face when alternatives are available such as adoption, you can even leave the baby at a fire station or police station without any incrimination or prosecution. Their is the artificial womb that has shown a promising alternative to abortion.

The argument comparing this tax to what we all pay for with the fire dept and police is absolutely deplorable that some here can't seem to make the nexus between that which we are willing to pay for the general protection and life saving efforts of those in need of the services the fire and police provide, over the death and mental anguish, this elective surgery commits as legalized pre-meditated murder.

You think it’s outrageous for me to call it murder?

Then tell your supreme court because if someone shoots a pregnant woman, guess what!

That's right, all of a sudden, that baby, that fetus, that blob of flesh, some of you regard with all the respect of a tapeworm parasite, is now a PERSON, and the shooter faces TWO COUNTS of murder if they can't save the baby. The idea some of you have had that if the baby can't survive on its own, it isn't viable so it isn't a person. Does it not occur to you if we held the same logically fallacious standard for your average two year old to be left on its own to survive, it wouldn't fair any better than when it was first out of the womb? Yet you land in jail in that case for neglect and child abuse and what ever the mitigating circumstances may be for manslaughter.

Last I want to speak to those suggesting "NO ONE has a right to control another person’s body. I would ask what right you have to do the same thing to the infant.

But more than that is the fact you can say such haughty comments in the same voice you want to have us be forced to fork over the bucks to pay for your so called "choice" even if it is against our will. What elective surgery are you going to suggest we pay for next” Boob Jobs? Tummy Tucks? Face Lifts ? At least those don’t have us paying to rip some little tiny humans fragile little body to bits and pieces or have it sit in a broom closet breathing struggling to survive because he somehow made it through surviving the abortion where it now gets to die slowly, painfully without anyone standing up for these little ones rights. We treat animals at the animal shelters for dogs and cats with more dignity for petes sake.

I welcome your rebuttals with relentless creativity, uninhibited imagination and competitive intelligence.

My God, shame on some of you





[edit on 11-11-2009 by Kerry_Knight]

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere

Originally posted by HotSaucedo you really want your hard earned tax dollars going to subsidize someones poor choices? Doesn't that make us all guilty by making us part of ending the poor unlucky kids chance at life?

I dont want my property taken by anyone for any reason. Too many people love it when the gov takes there money. The practive of federal extortion at gun point isnt going anywhere anytime soon.

So, if I have to choose between my stolen property being used to fund 18 years of welfare scams then another 30-life supporting the hood rat in prison or a few bucks to vacu-suck the trash out before it becomes the money pit it is destined to be I choose the latter.

Put an end to welfare queens and their mini-armies of 12 legitimate thugs fathered by means of 12 drug-induced blackout laden nights of ghetto-fabulous lovin'.

Supporters of this should be touting it as fiscal responsibility.

I would rather give a government paid abortion than pay for the welfare of said child. That said, Just because someone has illegitimate kids and goes on welfare, does not necessarily make them non-white. We have a pretty healthy dose of our own white trash sucking the life out of the welfare system and while I will agree that there are some races that predominantly abuse the system, That is not an excuse for blatant racism. It is tiny minded thinking like that that will make our journey to a better tomorrow a harder row to hoe.

reply to post by freshwreckage


Involuntary sterilization.

Takes care of many issues (men and women). Think your tax dollars should pay for that?

All hail the 'Christian fundies' as yet again they try and force their agenda by the back door.

Abortion is allowed, as it always will be - nothing you do or say will change that. I'd be willing to fight for it - just to stop you lot.

Your sick religion is an expiring beast, and your divisive rhetoric unsound, and unsuitable for public airing.

Here in the UK, abortion is included in our healthcare system, because we care what happens to both mother and child. Guidelines are in place to make sure that the welfare of both is looked after. We don't subscribe to the sickening diatribe that the religious zealots in the American anti-abortion movement spouts.

Taxpayers pay for healthcare - whatever a persons health requirements are. You won't change this, and you will lose - so cut out the crap, and confess to being religious fundamentalists in need of psychiatric help.

The Para.

reply to post by HotSauce


Who sais the responsibility is the womans? What about the men that made the child? This is not about a woman screwing around and making abortions like changing trouses. This is about a human i need of medical competens. Years ago they send the women out for a ride or cycling on a trainrail..

Besides, if you are a smoker are you entitled to taxpaid cancer treatment? Or if you crossed the street and did not look for traffic and got run over by a car...why tax money?

Tax money is for ALL medical help, solidarity in all for all.
And yess, i do believe you are a hypocrite suporting your government in "defending" your country and you are in fact responsable for many many lifes..god does not care a bit for your view on abortion.

Pay for abortions with tax money=more poor women get them=fewer future criminals and fewer future welfare recipients=the republicans/right wing benefits.

Pay for abortions with our own money=more wealthy, educated women get them=fewer wealthy, educated future citizens, more poor & uneducated future consumers/criminals.

So, why is the right not supporting taxpayer funded abortions? It would seem to be in their best interests. The children saved by preventing abortions for poor women will almost invariably end up poor, uneducated, and, if they vote at all, will vote for democrats who promise them government handouts and lenient criminal systems.

The demographics say that the advent of legal abortions correlates exactly with the relative drop in crime and poverty seen 20 years later (See "Freakonomics" for more info)

Fewer abortions=more democrats and fewer Fox News watchers

I love this part:

That's right, all of a sudden, that baby, that fetus, that blob of flesh, some of you regard with all the respect of a tapeworm parasite, is now a PERSON, and the shooter faces TWO COUNTS of murder if they can't save the baby. The idea some of you have had that if the baby can't survive on its own, it isn't viable so it isn't a person. Does it not occur to you if we held the same logically fallacious standard for your average two year old to be left on its own to survive, it wouldn't fair any better than when it was first out of the womb? Yet you land in jail in that case for neglect and child abuse and what ever the mitigating circumstances may be for manslaughter.

Simply put:

A child is only a fetus (non-human) while in the womb for the purposes of an abortion.

BUT...

If the pregnant mother is killed, that fetus is miracuously transformed by LAWS into a fully-fledged human being (A CHILD) for the purposes of how many counts of murder or manslaughter to ascribe to the defendant.

Wierd.

reply to post by Parallex


Get sterilized if you want to screw around without consequences. Seems very logical to me.

Originally posted by HotSauce
do you really want your hard earned tax dollars going to subsidize someones poor choices?
[edit on 10-11-2009 by HotSauce]

No.

However, if a woman cannot afford to have an abortion, then she certainly cannot afford to raise the child without tax-payer assistance. Therefore, maybe it would be best to allow her to have a tax-payer funded abortion ONLY IF she agrees to be sterilized at the same time. Actions have consequences.


[edit on 11-11-2009 by coastalite]

Fact:
My name is Scott.
I am alive.
At 35 yrs old, I was alive.
At 15, I was alive.
At 5, I was alive.
At 1 yr, I was alive.
At 1 mo., I was alive.
At 9 mo. in the womb, I was alive.
At 1 mo, in the womb, I was alive.
The same person in all cases. If my mother killed me back then, she would've killed Scott...her son.
Don't give me this crap about how unfortunate some child they will have it if they are not wanted. I was not wanted. I am still alive. Who are you to say that I should not live because you think how terrible my life would be. I am glad to be here and that my life was not snuffed out by some bastard who knew what was best for me. If I was aborted, it would have been the murder of Me Scott. It is murder, pure and simple. Everyone of these baies would grow up to be adults like you & I. Get out of your self rightous fantasy world. It is the ultimate act of selfishness. Thank God my mother who didn't want me wasn't as selfish as the millions of women who will AND DO live with murder hanging on their heads for the rest of their lives!
Find me one woman who doesn't feel guilty for killing their own child. Any psychologist will tell you, it tortures them almost daily.

Originally posted by Parallex
All hail the 'Christian fundies' as yet again they try and force their agenda by the back door.

Abortion is allowed, as it always will be - nothing you do or say will change that. I'd be willing to fight for it - just to stop you lot.

Your sick religion is an expiring beast, and your divisive rhetoric unsound, and unsuitable for public airing.

Here in the UK, abortion is included in our healthcare system, because we care what happens to both mother and child. Guidelines are in place to make sure that the welfare of both is looked after. We don't subscribe to the sickening diatribe that the religious zealots in the American anti-abortion movement spouts.

Taxpayers pay for healthcare - whatever a persons health requirements are. You won't change this, and you will lose - so cut out the crap, and confess to being religious fundamentalists in need of psychiatric help.

The Para.

On the contrary my presumptuous cleric, one doesn't have to be a ,,,,,,, what was the ad-hominem word you used to disparage your interlocutors? "Fundies""??

So is this the basis for your argument? that anyone disagreeing is a fundie and those that aren't are merely closet case fundies? Is that about right?

Then we have you turning the entire argument on its head suggesting those same fundies, are forcing their agenda? I seem to be missing the part where forcing people to pay for what is a progressive agenda, is somehow a fundie doing the imposing? Perhaps you can explain that one and hopefully without all the character assasination and anti religious bigotry and hatred.

Oh I see you are from the UK, so nevermind, your opinion of how things are done in the US is IRRELEVANT

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Kerry_Knight]

Originally posted by jsmappy
Fact:
My name is Scott.
I am alive.
At 35 yrs old, I was alive.
At 15, I was alive.
At 5, I was alive.
At 1 yr, I was alive.
At 1 mo., I was alive.
At 9 mo. in the womb, I was alive.
At 1 mo, in the womb, I was alive.
The same person in all cases. If my mother killed me back then, she would've killed Scott...her son.
Don't give me this crap about how unfortunate some child they will have it if they are not wanted. I was not wanted. I am still alive. Who are you to say that I should not live because you think how terrible my life would be.

Great Post and you are correct, ask the progressives when was the last time they ever met a kid who while growing up under those circumstances, bitching about how his mom screwed up his opportunity to die while she had the chance to kill him legally.

Well as a male I gotta side with galatea (many pages back)

Isn't my decision or choice what she does with her body. To me that baby isn't viable life until it can live outside...until then it is part of her. Now I saw someone who posted...page 2 or 3 I think that abortions raise cancer stats tenfold. So does smoking yet we allow that...kind of a bad argument in this case I think

Male...prochoice...that's me..the nice part is we live in a country where you are free to hate me for being that way.

-Kyo

Originally posted by j_kalin
Pay for abortions with tax money=more poor women get them=fewer future criminals and fewer future welfare recipients=the republicans/right wing benefits.

Yes and we know this is true because we went back in time and reversed Roe VS Wade and all those aborted children were alive and they all became criminals when compared to the stats we use to assume they wouldn't have if they had lived before the time travel right?

I mean how can you possibly attribute this to abortion? Hell I guess if we start killing the kids that aren't about to be aborted, what can we come up with there? We will see a drop in Job creation and entrepreneurial endeavor?

reply to post by j_kalin


j_kalin and others,

So, why is the right not supporting taxpayer funded abortions? It would seem to be in their best interests. The children saved by preventing abortions for poor women will almost invariably end up poor, uneducated, and, if they vote at all, will vote for democrats who promise them government handouts and lenient criminal systems.

This initially looks good by logic and reason..it is just that in practice it is rubbish. This is already going on in times of abortion availability. What are you thinking here??

From time to time I see these posts crop up on abortion and it is always the same olde tired arguments from both sides ..pro and con. Both sides arguing from the same standpoint of a Drama Queen education.

I have concluded after some years of arguing the same points as many of the posters, that there is something else going on here and that the social engineers and body politic want us to continiue arguing our Drama Queen arguments so that we do not see what they are actually doing to us.

The Abortion issue as far as the general public is concerned ..especially on boards like here on ATS is a placebo argument. I say placebo because the Body politic cares not one whit about the arguments from both sides.
What the body politic cares about is the votes that this issue will gaurantee them at election time.

This issue is about votes. Votes from one particular section of the population. Women.
Women in this country...with their voting ability can change the outcome of the elections ..particularly in states where there is a high electorial vote count.

These states are all states where there is a large population base and the economies are highly developed. Large cities, transportation hubs...great availablility of social services.
In these states women make up at least half of the population numbers. They spend at least half of the moneys. Their moneys if they work..and often their mans moneys if both work. This means that the major political/economic influence in these states is women...not the men.
Women are the determiners of how it goes in these states...not the men.

The body politic and social engineers financed by the body politic recognized this years ago and begin to engineer an issue which could be promoted and cultivated to gaurantee the vote of the women....particularly in high electorial vote states.
This issue had to be an emotionally charged issue....and one in which every women would immediately recognize and flock to emotionally and without thinking.
The issue chosen was sexuality...and particularly abortion.

This issue has been so completely pulled off on the American Public that at one time ...it became the sole issue to insure who or who would not be elected into any public office. Americans became so dirt stupid...that they paid attention to ..what was ones stance on abortion for any public office..even dog catcher. The issue was never...are you qualified for this office..but what was ones stance on abortion.

Are some of you catching on yet??

Americans were being had and did not know it. It is obviously still being done today.

The body politic cares not one whit about the stance or emotions of the pubic but how many votes this issue can get them. They will keep jerking the public off with this issue....over and over and over..but never educate you to the mental...and financal rape ..they are pulling off on you for votes.

As long as there are women and womens issues in these high electorial vote states...the politicians will whore out the populations ..continually on security issues on the public purse strings. Security verses opportunity.

Women almost always will vote for security out of the public purse strings...with someone else taking the risks to finance it. And Politicans are the ultimate feminine whoremasters...selling, bartering, and trading the very souls of the public for lucre or votes. Politicians will sell anyone..male or female to accomplish this. What they will never tell you is that they are doing this ..nor their motives for doing it.

You ..the American public must remain ignorant of this while emotionally debating placebo issues...and they ..the politicians operate behind their cloistered walls.

Some of you seriously need to wise up about security issues and the relationship of security issues to politics and whoredom.

Health care is just such a security issue on the public purse..and this issue abortion is tied into any health care bill..because the politicians know it will gaurantee votes at election time.

As this country becomes more and more feminized...you will see more and more security issues on the public purse being passed by government to gaurantee votes.

The next groups to be brought into the security blanket on the public purse and for votes are the homosexual groups...who also dwell in large numbers in high electorial votes states and cities.. and illegal aliens.

What you are seeing is the selling, bartering, and trading of the souls of the productive sector of the economy...in favor of the unproductive sector of the economy...and for votes. The term for this kind of politics among them who know it for what it is...is..Whoredom.

Keep debating your Drama Queen issues people...
Someone else is stealing your country right out from under you while you carry on with such drama.
Until you learn to think it through for yourself..the best you will be able to do is a circle jerk based on your high drama queen levels.

Teach yourself to keep an eye on the security issues and their relationship to the public purse strings and votes. Then much will become obvious to you.

Thanks,
Orangetom






[edit on 11-11-2009 by orangetom1999]