Like a broken record....but worth saying again., page 1

Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
Is this vicious cycle just going to go around and around forever? Where are we going with this?

Or are we going to collectively come to our senses and actually create an atmosphere that won’t reward ignorance?

I think this cycle is going to keep repeating.

I think you did a good job of describing the cycle, I've been through it myself. However I don't think I was lacking in senses when I had the beliefs that ET was already here, but one thing I lacked was any focus or independent research time spent on the subject.

Instead of researching the topics myself, I'd read a book written by another researcher, in what little spare time I had. I assumed they had done a lot of research to come to the conclusions they had, and there were so many incidents with so much evidence, it seemed credible to me that some of these must truly be ET.

However, it wasn't until I started doing my own research that I realized the UFO books I was reading were not well researched from all aspects of the incidents they covered, but rather they were biased.

I was researching the Belgian UFO wave recently, and one of the comments I found echoed your OP so I think it's worth reposting a little bit here to reinforce what you said:

The So-Called “Belgian Ufo Wave” – A Critical View

Many people who once believed in UFOs do not believe in them any longer. In contrast with a vast number of credulous people who believe in anything that gets into print, these former-UFO believers have started to check, systematically, the validity of the testimonies and of the literature that constitute the “UFO phenomenon”. Their doubts have increased constantly. Indeed, as soon as one starts digging a little deeper into this matter, it becomes clear that ufology is unsubstantiated. Consequently, each year, more and more reputed ufologists admit that they have erred or were on the wrong track; after what they join the rank of the ex-ufologists. This important fact is generally ignored by those who believe in extraterrestrial UFOs and is often censored or falsely explained by the ufologists themselves.

One enters and stays “in” ufology just as if it were a cult, sheltered from any hard facts that could trigger a process of disbelief. Ufology is scientific neither in its methodology nor in its achievements.

I think the wording is off a little bit in that I still believe that UFOs exist, they are undeniable, but the question is, what are they? In answering this question I think when people do their own research they start to find that some of the stories they have been told by certain UFO researchers are somewhat one-sided, biased views. We need to look at an incident from all angles with an unbiased view to get at the truth.

One other point is that some people may be lacking in analytical skill sets to be able to properly interpret evidence independently. I find it encouraging that more and more people seem to be realizing that rods are merely camera artifacts and not real UFOs for example, but some people still believe in rods. And similarly, some people are unable to properly interpret other optical effects which means that unfortunately some people I fear will continue to cling to beliefs in optical illustions even when the nature of those illusions is pointed out. But I'm hopeful they will be in the minority.

I'd be delighted to see a UFO sighting which convincingly appears to be of an ET nature, and there are some cases I can't explain, but I'm still looking. Just because I can't explain a case, doesn't mean I have to jump to conclusions that it's ET, but I think some people do jump to conclusions.

My last thought is Stanton Friedman's comment that the question isn't "are all UFOs ET?", the question is "Are any UFOs ET?". I've never seen proof they are, but since you can't prove a negative I also haven't seen proof they aren't. So that's another reason people will continue to fill in the blanks with their imagination, rather than admitting that some UFOs are just "unknown".

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Arbitrageur]

reply to post by Arbitrageur

---

Excellent response, Arbitrageur. We have all been through the cycle, some of us several times

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts

---

Without taking a poll and without any supporting data it's very easy to accept that the majority of humans are believers. The majority of humans do not research alternative explanations. The majority of humans do not question. The majority of humans are gullible. They cannot help themselves nor do they have the impetus to do so. They resent being told that their beliefs cannot be supported by evidence for they do not require evidence, their minds are made up. Most believers are followers, not leaders.

Most believers Ignore The Facts!


[edit on 9-11-2009 by The Shrike]

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts

---

so what's plan B ?

i ask because in case you hadn't noticed , plan A which is your monthly rant hasn't changed the world yet and it never will.

[edit on 10-11-2009 by easynow]

well... what do you make of this........

Introductory Space Science - The Science of Unidentified Flying Objects

INTRODUCTORY SPACE SCIENCE - VOLUME II
DEPARTMENT OF PHYSICS - USAF
CHAPTER XIII - UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS

Edited by: Major Donald G. Carpenter
Co-Editor: Lt. Colonel Edward R. Therkelson

33.6 CONCLUSION

From available information, the UFO phenomenon appears to have been global in nature for almost 50,000 years. The majority of known witnesses have been reliable people who have seen easily-explained natural phenomena, and there appears to be no overall possitive correlation with population density. The entire phenomenon could be psychological in nature but that is quite doubtful. However, psychological factors probably do enter the data picture as "noise." The phenomenon could also be entirely due to known and unknown phenomena (with some psychological "noise" added in) but that too is questionable in view of some of the available data.

This leaves us with the unpleasant possibility of alien visitors to our planet, or at least of alien controlled UFO's. However, the data are not well correlated, and what questionable data there are suggest the existence of at least three and maybe four differnet groups of aliens (possibly at different states of development). This too is difficult to accept. It implies the existence of intelligent life on a majority of the planets in our solar system, or a surprisingly strong interest in Earth by members of other solar systems.

A solution to the UFO problem may be obtained by the long and diligent effort of a large group of well financed and competent scientists, unfortunately there is no evidence suggesting that such an effort is going to be made. However, even if such an effort were made, there is no guarantee of success because of the isolated and sporatic nature of the sightings. Also, there may be nothing to find, and that would mean a long search with no profit at the end. The best thing to do is to keep an open and skeptical mind, and not take an extreme position on any side of the question.

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts

---

Your taking it for granted that everyone is just like you, experienced the same, read the same, examined things in the same way, if thats what you think you seriously need to start again where you started and look again, because I promise you none of us have experienced the same things and seen it with the same perspective and come to same conclusions as you have.

How can anyone of us determine the sanity of any individual if we have never put ourselves into their shoes? there is a saying where I come from, who is really insane, the person who is committed to the asylum, or the psychiatrist? because for the Psychiatrist to make the judgment to commit them they must have put themselves into the same situation, so does that not make them insane also?

It's about judgment 100%, what you call logic, another person would call a nightmare, what I call a nightmare, someone else thinks it's hilarious, that is the real repetition, the real constant record, it always is someone else who has the problem, that's why prisons are full of innocent people, because everyone of them claims they are, but do you believe they are? no you don't, but I guarantee some of them are, sadly it's usually 10-20-30 years too late after they have suffered the agony of it all before someone looks deeper and discovers the evidence that proves them right.

It's the same thing for people who really have experienced the UFO phenomenon with real life ET, they get ridiculed, thrown to the lions, laughed at, become outcasts, and their life becomes a mess, because belief is something "logical"

You tell me? have you never heard of a person who has been in prison for however long, only for it to be discovered a long time later, they where in fact telling the truth? now tell me the difference between prison and being outcast, ridiculed, laughed at ECT, because there was no proof that man in prison was innocent, there is no proof a person experienced contact of the third kind for real, yet both suffer from the hands of those who cant really be bothered with seeking the evidence for themselves.

Believe it or not I have read 3 Ufology books in just over 15 years, because I know the crap some people spill from them, all for personal gain, I go and do all the work myself, I have tons and tons of files, some nobody here has ever heard of, will they get published, no, because I am not in it for fame and glory, I couldn't give a crap if anyone believes or not, I don't care if I am classed as some kind of insane fanatic, those around me who know me and spend time with me seem to find me a nice guy, my Family don't have any problems with it, I get support from everywhere I go, never had a witness complain I mistreated them, those I do know in the Ufology field who do write books and make films have never had a problem with the way I work other than to get upset when I wont give information when asked, I do share stories and witnesses when the witnesses agree, and sometimes the story goes further.


To put people into a box like you have with the OP, that's just not logic, whoopi you can think with logic, let me tell you, this Universe can never offer any logic until you understand it, and nobody does, not even close, so assumptions on what those do or act like in a world of Ufologists well that's all it is an assumption, here have a cookie.

That is the true broken record, the constant, believers are this, skeptics are that, debunker's do it in the dark crap, in reality that's where people would like to see unmovable believers go (into a box and be quiet while some make some money) but it will never happen, sure some UFO's if not most are man made, great for those who created them, still leaves many that are not, because they can not prove without a doubt they are ET does not make those who witness it and experience it a nut case, it does not even mean they are mistaken, I know I'm not mistaken when I've said I know ET is real, far from it, I just feel sorry for those who haven't been lucky enough to experience it for themselves, because it's a wonderful feeling, and no I wasn't beamed up, or whisked away to Venus, or told I am the sun of God, or an indigo child, or the World will end 2 weeks next Tuesday at 5 pm.

And just because there have been many who believed that changed their tune because they didn't witness anything but a airplane for a few years, does not mean there are not those who have stuck with it decade after decade, in fact I know there are those who were none believers who have gone the opposite way so that evens that out.

We are probably going to have the little quote thing now with the reply underneath with some smarmy rebuttal, that's fine, the quote icon is at the top, the true logic is not thinking everything is a given, and there are things in this wonderful Universe which cant be explained, none explanation does not mean it's false or fake, it just means unknown, a label is a label, until that label was placed on it, nobody could explain it, still will never stop the search for what it is, it has nothing to do with growing up, or being young, ignorant, or logical, it has to do with being as it is, nobody can change it, no matter what label anyone wants to stick on it.

You just sound disappointed that not everybody is seeing the World the way you do, which I find sad.

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts

---

ITF - you make some fair points but why do I never see you actualy addressing some of the more interesting (and truly puzzling) UFO incidents?

Seems to me the majority of your posts usualy deal in vague generalizations and (sometimes incredibly cynical) flippantly dismissive remarks.

Why do you ignore the facts, Ignore the facts?

reply to post by NightVision

---

I agree with you, you as many others have noticed an influx of I dunno what I can only call disrespect, and a complete misunderstanding of what occurs here, and how much people do put into everything they do, for everyone, not just for their own shall we say agenda.

I have just re-read over several times what I wrote, and I have to say I did come across a bit rough and condescending, I can only apologize for that, and I will to IgnoreTheFacts.

I feel though like a lot of others, that this small minority are doing harm to the whole UFO truth cause, and I am talking about all sides of the fence, it's hard to give an opinion without throwing self experiences or the experience of others known to be as genuine as can be.

If we could stick together, again all sides, those who seriously wish to know one way or another whether ET is real, then this harm can be only a minimalist attempt at disruption.

I have said I believe without any doubt that ET is 100% real, but that is in my mindset and based on personal experience, that is not to say that, that that feeling can not be false, or that experience is not a mistake misunderstood or dare I say a deliberate attempt to convince me, if it was not for others not backing up certain parts of what happened I would probably have dismissed it many years ago, but it was not the only time, but again it could be a severe brain dysfunction, that is what I need to know as an individual, and that's why I search seek, research, and do everything short of standing in the open air humming and asking for a repeat.

Some people I have spoken to who have had experiences, are so convincing, want nothing to do with notoriety, fame or money, quite the opposite, examination of places and situations have turned up convincing evidence of something happening, just like some I have spoken too have been mistaken, more times than not, but they are so happy to have been mistaken.

One day I will bring out some of the evidence I have gathered, but I feel to do so while it is like it is would do more harm than good.

I come across as arrogant, I have said that before, I really do not mean to be, I want everyone to believe that, it really hurts though sometimes, to see decent people, people even here who we cherish their opinions, being torn apart simply because of a half baked opinion, without giving something to back up the claims they make, and I really do mean it hurts, that goes for skeptics as well.

Every opinion is important, all sides, but when it gets side tracked and turns into an argument, something gets lost, youtube video's I cant take seriously at all anymore without checking the background, which is how it should be, but more so recently, and only because of the always instant claim of CGI, or the I can do that in 5 mins , I say go ahead then show us you can, but it never happens, someone comes along and clains oh that's been debunked I know it has because I was told, so many people see those words and instantly take it as debunked, when some of them never had been.

If we did stick together we could prevent that, just by asking where and when and can we have a link please, there are a lot of new members who are here and enjoy to disrupt for the short attention, but there are a lot who seriously want the same as the rest of us.

In all my years on the Internet, from the days of yahoo chat and the beyond planet earth chat room, right up to this moment, I can honestly say, I have never enjoyed being a member of a forum so much, a lot of times just a few lines posted by one member or another, has filled in those little spaces in my notes with a ????? that to me is incredible and invaluable, and it comes from the most surprising places, and a lot of times I can add a snippet of info, that I would hope helps with someones questions or to help move things along or in the right direction.

I would hope that I would be told if I was being an ass, I can take the criticism, but some cant and have left because it got so bad, I want those people to come back, because some of them where decent people with an opinion, just like ours.

Maybe I'm too messed up, I dunno, someone tell me.

Originally posted by karl 12
reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts

---

ITF - you make some fair points but why do I never see you actualy addressing some of the more interesting (and truly puzzling) UFO incidents?

I have spoken on some of the cases that I find interesting, but lets face it, armchair quarterbacking is all that we do around here anyway and I'll wager my consistent message that I bring to the threads I participate in is WAY more constructive than the dozens of other responses from the dough-eye space brother loving "experiencers" that are usually in the same threads.

Seems to me the majority of your posts usually deal in vague generalizations and (sometimes incredibly cynical) flippantly dismissive remarks.

A lot of the threads on this board are pretty vague. Lemme see, blurry dot against a black background and I'm supposed to be specific? As far as being cynical, how long have you been around this subject? If you have been around for some time and your not cynical, then my hat is off to you sir, and I'll have to say your a better man than I for sure. Sometimes I get a little frustrated and I find it hard not to be a cynic...I mean read the majority of the threads and posts in this forum....egads man, agads! lol.

Why do you ignore the facts, Ignore the facts?

I originally picked my name because I was constantly amazed at the sheer amount of facts people would dismiss in order to not have their ufo "faith" shaken. I see it all the time. I'm not ignoring too many facts myself. The simple fact is that there are not enough solid facts available that would prove alien ufo's for me to overlook anyway. And if there was I assure you I wouldn't be ignoring them at all. I want to be wrong more than anybody. It would make my day to wake up one morning and find information that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have had my head inserted into my rectum for all these years.

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts

---

What a well thought out and well fitting analogy. Star and Flag for you.

I agree. It seems as if the older I get, the more technology grows and thus the more ridiculous and silly some of the videos and pictures become. That isn't so bad in itself, but what upsets the field is the people who are buying into these claims without using their BS meter. Over the last 5 years it has taken a serious sharp turn for the worse. Shows like UFO Hunters only makes it worse IMO. What we need is more guys like Friedman or another Hynek. Those 2 guys get it.

Aliens Among Us ...Video
  Posted 10 days ago with 65 member flags

Moon: inexplicable phenomena. Luna Cognita video.
  Posted 18 days ago with 60 member flags

UFOs \'Escort\' Mexican Aircraft - Radar Confirmed.
  Posted 13 days ago with 31 member flags

The Edge of Reality - Updated Report on the Illinois Police UFO case, January 5th, 2000.
  Posted 6 days ago with 28 member flags

The Aurora, Texas UFO Incident (1897)
  Posted 4 days ago with 27 member flags

Jacques Vallee: Implications of UFO Phenomena - Thinking Allowed.
  Posted 2 days ago with 23 member flags

1/28/2012 craft in sky From Puerto Rico - Need help getting more info!!
  Posted 8 days ago with 21 member flags

UFO above Wadden Sea
  Posted 12 days ago with 14 member flags

Newest topics, updated in real-time:

Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:

Newest topics getting replies, in real-time: