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What's the evidence against extraterrestrials and or extraterrestrial visitation?

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posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 10:12 PM
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i totally understand the idea behind this OP's post. Maybe it should have been worded slightly differently, maybe something like -

"whats your reasons for being a ET skeptic"

something like that.

Anyway. lets get off this flaming of the post subject and actually answer it. I think the biggest evidence against has to be the real lack of high quality photos,videos and physical evidence.

All the people in the world can talk about what theyve seen, but until the evidence is better quality, lots of us will refuse to believe.

Thats only my opinion, even though I DO believe! just trying to see it from the other side!

G.




posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 10:31 PM
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reply to post by johnny2127
 


You are totally missing what he is saying. If people saw a bunch of UFOs and it was actually jets running a routine flyby or shooting off flares, there is a way to tell it was the jets by simply calling the base and providing evidence that it could have been the jets and not ufos. However, take my thread with this video on it for example www.abovetopsecret.com... People called that CGI without one shred of evidence of any of it being CGI, not that it is or isn't CGI, but to make a claim that it is CGI requires you to show me some kind of evidence or proof that it is CGI.



posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 10:32 PM
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Has anyone look at Nasa new photo of Saturn’s moon Enceladus? If so can anyone tell me what the lights we are seeing on the moon?



posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 10:36 PM
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has anyone seen the new photos on Nasa site of Saturn’s moon Enceladus?

If so can anyone tell me what the lights are on the moon that im seeing?



posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 10:38 PM
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reply to post by steal
 


can we see some links? i have not seen this, sounds interesting.maybe you could link some?

cheers. g



posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by johnny2127
Obviously you don't understand that you cannot prove a negative.



johnny said it correctly. You cannot find answers with this direction of thought. Have fun though.


ZG

[edit on 11/9/2009 by ZeroGhost]



posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 11:02 PM
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s914.photobucket.com... In my opinion you will never find out the TRUTH about aliens on ATS it is actively discouraged from the top down, crakeur aka Stephen will label you as crazy and "lock" your thread without a hearing or move it to a "hoax" thread without proving it is a hoax. I have posted 2500 photographs on photobucket showing alien life that i would have shown here but for him. This post is not to lure anyone away from ATS but to answer the question why the proof is not on ATS.



posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 11:43 PM
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reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


Attempting to prove a negative is a fools journey. Asking people too is a last resort usually prompted by anger. Try it in a formal debate and you loose. In school you get a failing grade. In real life you find out why.

Instead, present evidence and see if it holds up to scrutiny. Debate the evidence.

Most of us believe the existence of life elsewhere is a given. The question is have we been visited? Proof of that is what we want. Many of us are weary of the silly stuff however.



posted on Nov, 9 2009 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by debris765nju
s914.photobucket.com... In my opinion you will never find out the TRUTH about aliens on ATS it is actively discouraged from the top down, crakeur aka Stephen will label you as crazy and "lock" your thread without a hearing or move it to a "hoax" thread without proving it is a hoax. I have posted 2500 photographs on photobucket showing alien life that i would have shown here but for him. This post is not to lure anyone away from ATS but to answer the question why the proof is not on ATS.


You gotta be kidding! You have 2,500 photos of alien life and the world has never heard of you and the media is not clamoring for them? ATS is just a forum for anyone who wants to butt in to a thread. Do you really expect ANYTHING to be shown on here that can be taken to the bank?

How about a link to your photobucet gallery so that we can see what you call alien life?



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 12:39 AM
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This thread shows how blind skeptics and debunkers are.

They keep talking about proving a negative when I never said anything about proof. These people are truy illogical. Show me where I asked you for proof. It has nothing to do with proving a negative.

This is a response you hear from skeptics and debunkers and they have been taught to say that you can't prove a negative. Their like robots, they can't debate the issue because they want to keep saying you can't prove a negative. I never asked you for proof of anything.

I debate things like parallel universes, quantum loop gravity, simulation theory and more and none of these things have proof. There's evidence for and against the proposition. It has nothing to do with proving a negative.

Again, skeptics and debunkers are like broken records that can't think for themselves. This has nothing to do with proving a negative.

I never asked you for evidence to disprove the existence of extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings.

I asked for evidence against the proposition that extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings exist and against visitation.

Pseudoskeptics and debunkers are programmed to debate against proving a negative and they can't understand a simple debate for and against a proposition. They need to visit a college and listen to a few debates.



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 12:57 AM
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Proposition - prop⋅o⋅si⋅tion  /ˌprɒpəˈzɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [prop-uh-zish-uhn] Show IPA
Use proposition in a Sentence
See web results for proposition
See images of proposition
–noun

1. the act of offering or suggesting something to be considered, accepted, adopted, or done.
2. a plan or scheme proposed.
3. an offer of terms for a transaction, as in business.
4. a thing, matter, or person considered as something to be dealt with or encountered: Keeping diplomatic channels open is a serious proposition.
5. anything stated or affirmed for discussion or illustration.
6. Rhetoric. a statement of the subject of an argument or a discourse, or of the course of action or essential idea to be advocated.
7. Logic. a statement in which something is affirmed or denied, so that it can therefore be significantly characterized as either true or false.

8. Mathematics. a formal statement of either a truth to be demonstrated or an operation to be performed; a theorem or a problem.
9. a proposal of usually illicit sexual relations.

dictionary.reference.com...

Debating a proposition has nothing to do with "proving a negative." This is just something pseudoskeptics and debunkers have been programmed to say.



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 01:22 AM
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there are no facts...... everything is theory..... we know nothing.... looooool...... big bang onwards.... whatever we know is 'belief' based..... finito




posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 01:26 AM
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Originally posted by Matrix Rising
This thread shows how blind skeptics and debunkers are.

They keep talking about proving a negative when I never said anything about proof. These people are truy illogical. Show me where I asked you for proof. It has nothing to do with proving a negative.

This is a response you hear from skeptics and debunkers and they have been taught to say that you can't prove a negative. Their like robots, they can't debate the issue because they want to keep saying you can't prove a negative. I never asked you for proof of anything.

I debate things like parallel universes, quantum loop gravity, simulation theory and more and none of these things have proof. There's evidence for and against the proposition. It has nothing to do with proving a negative.

Again, skeptics and debunkers are like broken records that can't think for themselves. This has nothing to do with proving a negative.

I never asked you for evidence to disprove the existence of extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings.

I asked for evidence against the proposition that extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings exist and against visitation.

Pseudoskeptics and debunkers are programmed to debate against proving a negative and they can't understand a simple debate for and against a proposition. They need to visit a college and listen to a few debates.



You know whats funny is that I AM NOT A DEBUNKER OR A SKEPTIC. I actually do think UFO's are most likely out there and visiting.

I just am point out the flawed nature of the question you posted and how it cannot be answered that way. I and others have asked you 6 times now to come up with an example of evidence for proving something like UFO's or unicorns or fairies don't exist. And you can't. You don't even address it. Why? Because there is no example of something like that. Logically speaking it cannot exist. Evidence can exist to show a specific UFO sighting was not a flying saucer or aliens. But that is not proof of aliens or UFO's not existing in general. How can you not grasp this?

The problem is, without you even being able to intellectually grasp what we are trying to explain about philosophically and logically it not being possible for evidence to exist something doesn't exist, it makes this thread and conversation pointless.

You keep bringing up parallel universes, and time travel, and string theory, etc about examples of things people debate with evidence on both sides. But this shows you do not understand what evidence is or how debate works. The people that debate against any of those things do so based on alternative THEORIES not any evidence. You cannot seem to grasp this. Debate based on evidence is about whether something did or did not happen, or whether it is right or wrong for some policy or law, or if something is helpful or harmful, etc. See the difference? Debates based on evidence are about which side of an argument EXISTS or is true. Debates based on theories are beliefs are about is something exists or is true or not, NOT EVIDENCE.

You have to be one or a combination of the following things: very young, uneducated, stubborn, unintelligent, or have english as a second language. I hope its stubborn or English being a second language and not the others.

Because you cannot grasp or address what myself and others are trying to explain about the fallacy of trying to provide evidence of a negative, you end up having people like me who believe UFO's probably exist arguing against you since what you ask for isn't even possible to provide.

I AM NOT A SKEPTIC. I believe that UFO's probably exist and probably are visiting Earth. Think about this; if you cannot even address what a non-skeptic is trying to point out, how can you possibly change an actual skeptic's opinion?



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 01:32 AM
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Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Proposition - prop⋅o⋅si⋅tion  /ˌprɒpəˈzɪʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [prop-uh-zish-uhn] Show IPA
Use proposition in a Sentence
See web results for proposition
See images of proposition
–noun

1. the act of offering or suggesting something to be considered, accepted, adopted, or done.
2. a plan or scheme proposed.
3. an offer of terms for a transaction, as in business.
4. a thing, matter, or person considered as something to be dealt with or encountered: Keeping diplomatic channels open is a serious proposition.
5. anything stated or affirmed for discussion or illustration.
6. Rhetoric. a statement of the subject of an argument or a discourse, or of the course of action or essential idea to be advocated.
7. Logic. a statement in which something is affirmed or denied, so that it can therefore be significantly characterized as either true or false.

8. Mathematics. a formal statement of either a truth to be demonstrated or an operation to be performed; a theorem or a problem.
9. a proposal of usually illicit sexual relations.

dictionary.reference.com...

Debating a proposition has nothing to do with "proving a negative." This is just something pseudoskeptics and debunkers have been programmed to say.


You are hilarious. Thank you for proving my point for me. You just posted the definition of PROPOSITION to support what you are saying about evidence!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Seriously man, dear lord.

You just highlighted rhetoric and logic to back you up, but don't you see that rhetoric and logic are not evidence? Rhetoric and logic is talking about theories not evidence. You really do not grasp what the word EVIDENCE means do you. You are asking for evidence and then posting things to back up THEORIES existing.

You are hilarious. You just posted something that supports what I am saying about this not being about evidence against. Unbelievable. Wow Matrix. Wow.



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 04:54 AM
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Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Show me where I asked you for proof.




evidence

noun
1. that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.


How do you expect anyone to debate with you if you don't even know the definition of the words you use?

You are asking for evidence for something that isn't evident. That is like asking to see a picture of something that is invisible.

You should be asking for reasonable beliefs.


Originally posted by Matrix Rising
I hear a lot of evidence for things like abduction accounts, pictures, video, radar, trace evidence and more. I never hear any evidence against.


None of that is evidence of anything "extraterrestrial". There is actually no reason to believe any of that is "extraterrestrial".

Abductions; they "happen" on Earth so there is no reason to believe it was caused by something non-Earthly.

Pictures and videos; they don't show the origins of an object. When you take a picture of an Unidentified Flying Object it does NOT show where the object came from. So there is no evidence that it is non-Earthly. Even if a Unidentified Flying Object seems to use technology that isn't widely known, doesn't mean another human doesn't know, and it doesn't mean it is non-Earthly.

Radar; If it is a radar signal from the sky, or from space, it STILL does not show the origins of the object, it could possibly be Earth based object.

Even if someone got "abducted" and the abductors told the abducted that they are from another star system, that still is not evidence that they are "extraterrestrial" because the truth of that statement is not evident. They could be terrestrial (Earthly).

Even if you have a picture of something that looks "alien", that is not evidence of extraterrestrial because it's origins are not evident.

There is ZERO evidence for anything "extraterrestrial" at this moment in time.



Originally posted by Matrix Rising
We have found liquid water on Mars, there's billions of earth like planets, we look at things like extremaphiles,extra dimensions, the multiverse and more.


None of that is evidence for the existence of extraterrestrials. What you have is only "supporting reasonable beliefs".

Just because there might be liquid water on Mars, that doesn't mean life exists there. Just because there might be billions of Earth like planets, that doesn't mean life exists there. Just because scientists have theorised the existence of multiple dimensions, that doesn't mean life exists in those dimensions.

None of that is evidence because it doesn't show anything evident.



Originally posted by Matrix Rising
What's the evidence and argument that supports reducing life in the galaxy to earth? What evidence out there prohibits alien abductions from occuring?


You questions are flawed and they should be worded differently. Replace the word "evidence" with "reasonable beliefs".

My opinion about extraterrestrials;

Although there is no evidence of life outside of Earth yet, the fact that life exists on Earth (in the universe) in such abundance is reason to believe that life can exist in abundance else where in the universe. I do believe there could be extraterrestrial life, however, I believe it is mostly unintelligent life, and intelligent life is very rare.

My opinion about extraterrestrial visitation;

If you look at it scientifically, there are many reasons to doubt extraterrestrial visitation.

First off, there is evidence on Earth that proves that intelligent life capable of space flight is very rare. Just compare the amount of intelligent species capable of space flight with the amount of species not capable. You will find that humans and their abilities are very rare. If you look at it from an evolution point of view, humans are very lucky to even exist and could probably be the only life form in the universe that was able to evolve into something intelligent enough for space flight before dying off and becoming extinct.

So far we have not found any scientific evidence for intelligent or unintelligent life in our own solar system (or so we are told), and that would mean any extraterrestrial visitors would have to have come from light years away. There are many scientific reasons to doubt a life form could travel that distance, or figure a way to teleport that distance.

There are hundreds of reasons to doubt, however you can't prove a negative, especially in a world where almost anything is possible.



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 06:25 AM
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Is it me or hasn't anyone noticed how far off topic this thread has been directed. I was under the assumption that a particular person asked for evidence of hostile aliens.

Before we answer that simple and straight forward question, i would imagine one would need to clarify if he accepts non earth life forms are visiting this planet you all call Earth >.

Once you can accept that then i guess we can move into further hard core evidence. But then again, perhaps its much safer to stay in the safety net of your perceived reality.


You are a product of your environment.



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 06:44 AM
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Originally posted by tristar
Is it me or hasn't anyone noticed how far off topic this thread has been directed. I was under the assumption that a particular person asked for evidence of hostile aliens.

Before we answer that simple and straight forward question, i would imagine one would need to clarify if he accepts non earth life forms are visiting this planet you all call Earth >.

Once you can accept that then i guess we can move into further hard core evidence. But then again, perhaps its much safer to stay in the safety net of your perceived reality.


You are a product of your environment.


Actually the question posed was not about proof or evidence of hostile aliens. The OP was trying to prove a point that aliens and UFO's must visit Earth by asking for evidence that aliens or UFO visitation doesn't exist. Most of us are trying to get him to understand the asking for evidence of something not existing is not possible. He or she doesn't grasp this basic rule or premise.

If he wanted a real debate he should be asking for theories why UFO's and aliens don't exist and/or visit Earth. Asking for evidence that they don't is a fools question and something not possible.



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by unicorn1
reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


With respect, I don't think you can apply the analogy of a debate where you have an argument two ways. I think believers have to prove a case for the existence of something - it can't be the other way round.
But here's my 2 cents. The world is so vast, I think if we were getting visitations, there would be a lot more sightings by now. Regarding the existing sightings/reports, these could be imagination, delusion or fabrication.
And I simply don't buy the argument that 'the universe is so vast, they have to exist'. There is no logic in that reasoning!
I don't say it's not possible and I don't say they exist. It's possible, that's all.





Actually it can be placed the other way around. You see you are thinking one sidedly and using current cultural norms to dictate what can and cannot be done. But do know that people who believe in extraterrestrial are already placed in the deviant perspective of society. To them, they have already proven the existence of extraterrestrials.

What this thread is about is how could you convince them of what you believe?


[EDITED]


Think of the Queer Theory analysis for a moment, just to get a better understanding of what I had said.

Most people question why others are homosexual? And we find that normal, just as you find questioning people to prove extraterrestrial existence to be normal.

However, let's put things in reverse. Wouldn't you find it awkward if you were asked why you were heterosexual? Certainly you would find being heterosexual to be normal, so this would appear to be a ridiculous question.

The point of it all is to show you just how much control one side has over the other.

The same is true about proving the existence of extraterrestrials. I mean there is no way to prove extraterrestrials exist. Just as there is no way to prove gravity. Nothing is proven. It is only convinced in the eyes of the observer. We are convinced of what is true, nothing is ever proven to be true. Nothing can be proven true.

[edit on 10-11-2009 by DrainMaster]



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by johnny2127
 


You don't have a clue as to what your talking about.

I asked what's the evidence against the proposition that extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings exist and the evidence against visitation. Again, I said nothing about proving a negative.

This shows you have no clue how to debate a proposition. Theories can be included as evidence against a proposition. This is why people come to conclusions based evidence presented for and against the proposition.

Parallel universes, simulation theory, the universe as a quantum computer are all theories accepted by Professors from M.I.T. to Harvard yet none of these theories don't have any proof.

This is because these people use reason to come to the conclusion as to what's most likely and what's less likely. We do it in all walks of life. Courts do it everyday. We always weigh the evidence within reason and then we reach a conclusion as to what's most likely and what's less likely.

It has absolutely nothing to do with proving a negative. If you have a theory then that could be considered evidence against and for the proposition.

Example:

We have found liquid water on Mars. As one Nasa scientist said before we found liquid water, where there's lwater there's life. You do the math (if you can). There's billions of earthlike planets and we have found extremaphiles in places that you wouldn't expect to find life.

This can be used as evidence for the proposition.

Alien Abduction cases.

1961 Betty and Barney Hill Abduction
1967 The Betty Andreasson Abduction
1967 Abduction of Herbert Schirmer
1968 The Buff Ledge Camp Abduction
1969 The Antonio da Silva Abduction
1973 The Doraty Abduction, Houston, Texas
1973 Pascagoula, Mississippi Abduction (Parker, Hickson)
1974 Hunter Abducted in Wyoming
1975 The Abduction of Sergeant Charles L. Moody
1975 The Travis Walton Abduction
1976 The Stanford, Kentucky Abductions
1976 The Allagash Abductions
1978 The Cullen Abduction
1978 The Dechmont Woods Abduction
1978 The Abduction of Jan Wolski
1980's Lost Time/Abduction in New York
1980 The Alan Godfrey Abduction
1983 The Copely Woods Encounter
1983 The Abduction of Alfred Burtoo
1985 Abduction of Wladyslaw S.
1985 Abduction of Whitley Strieber
1987 Abduction on North Canol Road, Canada
1987 Hudson Valley Abduction
1987 The Christa Tilton Story
1987 The Ilkley Moor Alien
1987 The Jason Andews Abduction
1988 Abduction of Bonnie Jean Hamilton
1988 DNA Sample From Khoury Abduction
1989 Linda Cortile-Napolitano Abduction
1990 Westchester, N. Y. Abduction
1992 The A-70 Abduction
1994 Abduction in Killeen, Texas
1997 Abduction in Wales
1997 Abduction in Australia, (Rylance-Heller)
1999 Carlyle Lake Abduction
2001 Abduction in Michigan
2003-Abduction in Florida
2004 Francis Family Abduction
2005 Man Abducted in Florida
2005 Clayton & Donna Lee Abduction

www.ufocasebook.com...

More evidence in support of the proposition.

Trace evidence

The following presents a statistical analysis of data found in 3,189 reports involving observations of anomalous phenomena or objects on or near the ground resulting in physical effects generated by the unknown objects observed. These events took place in 91 countries between 1490 and 2006. There are hundreds of additional reports of possible trace sites which do not involve the observation of a UFO. All but the most significant of these events have been removed from the primary files and located in a secondary catalog.The analysis permits certain regularities of these phenomena to be brought out. The data indicates there is a certain type of phenomenon which shows stable statistical properties.

www.ufophysical.com...

Evidence for the proposition.

Have you ever listened or read some of the great debates like between Albert Einstein and Neils Bohr?

You don't have a clue as to what your talking about.

7. Logic. a statement in which something is affirmed or denied, so that it can therefore be significantly characterized as either true or false.

The Proposition is that extraterrestrial/extradimensional beings exist and visitation has occured.

What's the evidence for and against the proposition to make this statement true or false?

We always come to conclusions as to what's most likely and what's less likely by weighing these things within reason. If we were to go by your silly standard then we would still be stuck in caves tring to "prove a negative" LOL.


[edit on 10-11-2009 by Matrix Rising]



posted on Nov, 10 2009 @ 09:22 AM
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reply to post by SirPatrickHenry
 


Let me guess, they used carbon dating?




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