I'm Leaving America

Originally posted by Siddharta

Originally posted by centurion1211
IMO, europe, or any other country can have all the nutcases who believe this theory that they can take.

BTW, did you realize that not long after you move to europe, it may become known as the "caliphate of europe"? Hope I'm on the immigration board when you frantically try to move back ...

Do you know, that you sound as if you don't even know, that Europe is not a country?
This does not make you look as an expert and you don't do a favour to your fellow countymen, when you try to present the knowledge about our continent.

"Caliphate of Europe"? Read a little and maybe you can avoid some of your nightmares.

Don't be a fool and try to use semantics as a deflection. Anyone reading that - except you - understood that europe in the context that I used meant all the countries COLLECTIVELY. As in, take your pick of the european countries.

As for the caliphate, again, almost everyone understood that I meant that they might not like what they find when they get there, and a europe under sharia law might not be the most fun place for a guitar player with little else in the way of ambition.

This is just attempt to get attention and is an unusually stupid premise. Even if you go, which I doubt will happen, you'll be back. To have a future you must invest in it not divest it. Running is something I detect you take to easily, good riddance missy.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Don't be a fool and try to use semantics as a deflection. Anyone reading that - except you

- understood that europe in the context that I used meant all the countries COLLECTIVELY. As in, take your pick of the european countries.

As for the caliphate, again, almost everyone

understood that I meant that they might not like what they find when they get there, and a europe under sharia law might not be the most fun place for a guitar player with little else in the way of ambition.

I understood exactly and I am not playing with semantics. As a European, I feel very close to many other European countries, but there is no European identity like that yet, especially if you also include the countries, which don't belong to the EU yet.
The Sharia thing is simply...far away from reality. Having a neighbour from Turkey does not make our country being under the laws of the Sharia.

You know, 1001 nights is far away from here. But the fairy tales are a good piece of culture.

If I should misunderstand you, than be more specific. We here in Europe don't understand, if you put us all in the same pot, stir it up and serve us a Sharia-soup. We distinguish those "little" differnces.

Originally posted by dragonsmusic
reply to post by alyosha1981

 

I don't understand what I'm supposed to ask the vets.
And I was never making any race related point about slavery.
Just that America being founded on it along with several other atrocities was not a very good begining.

yes you did make it about race, talking about how black were enslaved and reds were killed. Whites have been enslaved and killed off just like blacks and reds.

reply to post by dragonsmusic
Once again, I come late to the discussion.
But if you really want to change things, stay here and fight for your beliefs. I, personally, believe different than you. We do agree that we are all in for a world of crap.
I for one would rather stay and fight for the honor of the fight, and the honor of having stood my ground.
I can easily do without people like you that would prefer flight in the the face of a tyrant.
Don't come back.
Most would wish you peace as a sign off, I would wish you the "hope and change" you seek.

reply to post by dragonsmusic


Where else are you going to go that has the amount of freedom America has/had?

If you think your going to find a more free society elsewhere in the world you are gravely mistaken. The only other country that even remotely resembles the old US is Canada. I of course am speaking of the liberties of our constitution which of course has been trampled on over the years.

Europe is over rated in many respects, trust me. My younger sister went over there and really wasn't as impressed as I thought she would be. Many countries are dirty (environmental wise) and there are still many poor people around regardless of the Government benefits, and not to mention not as much freedom in certain aspects (camera's on city streets in Britain, guns are banned)

If you think the atrocities committed by this country were bad think about the British Empire, the Spanish Inquisition and settlement of the New World, The 100 Years war, the 30 Years War, The Crusades and Execution of Heretics and the Knights Templar, The Roman Empire was highly tyrannical in it's later years. The amount of bloodshed committed in America is nothing compared to Europe. Doesn't Europe still back our wars now too? Don't they have troops fighting our wars with us?

Instead of leaving America why don't people try fixing it?

If I were to visit another country in Europe it would only be for historical purposes, most likely Britain, France or Italy.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by asmall89]

Originally posted by Siddharta

Originally posted by centurion1211
Don't be a fool and try to use semantics as a deflection. Anyone reading that - except you

- understood that europe in the context that I used meant all the countries COLLECTIVELY. As in, take your pick of the european countries.

As for the caliphate, again, almost everyone

understood that I meant that they might not like what they find when they get there, and a europe under sharia law might not be the most fun place for a guitar player with little else in the way of ambition.

I understood exactly and I am not playing with semantics. As a European, I feel very close to many other European countries, but there is no European identity like that yet, especially if you also include the countries, which don't belong to the EU yet.
The Sharia thing is simply...far away from reality. Having a neighbour from Turkey does not make our country being under the laws of the Sharia.

You still do not get it. I used the word "europe" so that I didn't have to individually list all the little countries there. Again, all but you seemed to understand that.

You know, 1001 nights is far away from here. But the fairy tales are a good piece of culture.

Not so far away if you look at the population projections I've seen. Muslim majorities in some major european countries within 50 years. And with the european track record of appeasment in the face of dictators, I'd you you maybe don't even have that long.

If I should misunderstand you, than be more specific. We here in Europe don't understand, if you put us all in the same pot, stir it up and serve us a Sharia-soup. We distinguish those "little" differnces.

Do you distinguish the difference between someone living in Arkansas and Nevada? Quite a difference in culture and in speech. Sorry, but the more we hear about the EU, the more will think of you in that way.

Are some of you seriously bashing this guy for wanting to move to Europe? Is the fact that somebody wants to see the world first hand and experience new things honestly a personal affront to you?

Go ahead OP, if you feel you must then by all means go and do it! I was in Europe over the summer - a measly 19 days. Couple of days in Dublin, London, Paris, and Munich. We were supposed to go to Heidelberg before to Munich, but our train reservations got messed up and we got stuck in Paris for several extra days.. too bad it was during the Tour de France and there were no vacancies at any of the hostels. We han to sleep on park benches on the Champs Elysees, right at the finish line. Can't wait to go back! Pretty big drain on the pocketbook though, and the 16 hour layover in the Dublin airport on the way back was a bit of a bummer...

But keep in mind, Europe isn't a utopia. You'll be surprised just how similar it is to here.

This has been several years ago, but my older brother left the US for a summer while in college, to work at a winery in France, since he was interested in learning about the business.

He had his guitar in hand.

What he ended up doing for the summer, was picking grapes, and stomping them with his bare feet! That is as far up that ladder he ever got!

Make sure your feet are healthy, before heading off on your dream!

DragonsMusic strummed on his guitar
He was packin up gonna leave gonna run far
Headin out lookin for a brighter day
He said the suns gonna shine in a different way
Once I get there once I leave here
I know I gotta make a change but its change I fear
See no ones listening its stacking up wrong
I'm gonna pull it all together and move along
To another place in the very same time
Youll all have yours and Ill have mine
In another place with some different vibes
And when the shadows from the past come from behind.
DragonMusic feels what we all kinda do
He made a big mistake sharing what he thought with you
Who the hell is anybody to tell the kid what to do
I say go buddy go what the hell you got to lose
There'll be rain there'll be sun just catch it while you can
Just remember when youre tossing
Be the S@&t and not the fan.


Talks easy brother ....just go...be safe

Originally posted by centurion1211 Hope I'm on the immigration board when you frantically try to move back ...

Sorry to bust your little power trip but I'd never be coming back and you could never control me. Spawn some children if you want to control something.

Originally posted by dragonsmusic
I long for the days when I travel through Europe playing and singing with other musicians.

Sounds fantastic mate! That's a great dream to have!

That said, go see Eurasia (the combined landmass of Europe and Asia, though I'm sure you already knew that). See Africa and South America, see the World! Travel, expand your horizons, share your culture with others, while discovering the culture of others.
I think a young wo/man could do nothing better for themselves than what you have planned.

But...

Don't distance yourself from your background, your national identity and culture. Don't forget, it's who you are. You are able to think as clearly as you obviously do thanks to the benefits of the upbringing America allowed you.

Don't turn your back on the USA. It will always be part of you as you to it. As frustrated as you obviously are with certain situations in America now, remember, you are not going to find utopia or paradise in Europe, you will find societies not completely different to what you came from.

The USA is still a wonderful country! Yes, I moan about you, as most Euro's and Brit's do. We make fun of you but when all is said and done, we still have a lot of respect for America and her achievements, made is such a relatively short period.
There is a reason that Europe has become so Americanised over the last 50 years and that, no matter how much we dislike to admit it, is because the culture of America is actually pretty damned fantastic! So many things the USA is second best at (the UK being first, obviously!) and so many things you should feel proud of your country for. I don't mean rabid, flag waving, USA chanting patriotism but a quiet, dignified respect for the many, many good things American stands for.

You are extremely lucky. You are able to think for yourself, to afford and want to travel and see the World. To express your feelings freely.

All I'm saying is, your dreams are brilliant and I wish you every success with them but the USA will always be your home and you should count yourself very lucky for that!
One day, you will very likely remember all the things you love about your street, home town, city, state and country. You will miss it, return home, maybe only briefly but one day you will fall in love with America again, I'm sure! And maybe then, if you still have the righteous anger at the problems you outlines, you may feel strong enough and experienced enough to want to attack them directly, instead of accepting defeat (not that I'm neccassarily saying you have accepted defeat now, or that you are running away or anything! As I said, there is no healthier plan that to travel, discover other people and cultures and enrich yourself).


All the very best mate and I - as miserable as some of you have no doubt noticed me to me - mean that from the bottom of my heart! I'm extremely jelous I never had your opportunity!


If you ever get to Manchester, Northern England and still fancy a bit of a jam, I'd be well up for it!

Good for you, Dragon. I don't see anything wrong with following your dreams. You have the adventurer bug in you it seems. You wish to experience other cultures, meet new friends, and explore what the rest of the world has to offer. That is cool. I want to do the same, and I will begin saving some cash to do just that myself within a few years or so from now.

I wouldn't put too much thought in to the overly nauseating patriotic posts from closed minded individuals here.

Do what makes you happy. Contrary to what these arrogant individuals believe, there is in fact a world outside the confines of the USA. Many of these countries are far safer, far more educated, and the people are far more happy than most American citizens.

On the flip side, you may find that you do not enjoy where it is you decide to go. Though with your love for music and wine, Europe may just be right up your alley.

Europe seems far more laid back than America, and the people for the most part, are far less obsessed with money than American's seem to be. Money seems to be all many Americans seem to care about. This very website is proof of that.

In any case, have fun. I plan on full filling my own dreams eventually, and you should be very proud of yourself for full filling your own.

Most of the people insulting you here are brainwashed. They foolishly and naively believe themselves to be better than everyone else on Earth, and they are quick to point out all of the freedoms and liberties that the rest of the world has lost, yet they conveniently ignore all of the liberties and freedoms they have lost in their own country (America.)

Little do they know that many other countries throughout the world offer far more than America ever could, and respect the rights of human beings far more than America ever could.

Enjoy yourself, and do not pay any attention to the gag inducing patriots that have attempted to derail your thread with their mindless drivel.

I wish you the best of luck.

The amount of ignorance in this thread is outstanding; for starters can you please just stop talking about Europe. It's a continent with 50 countries, pretty much the majority of those 50 counties are very different from each other. For example if you travelled to England, France and Azerbaijan everything from culture to language is different. Even a small country like England is vastly different in areas; living in Cornwall is significantly different to living in London. Please can you be more specific in what areas you are talking about and where you want to live, labelling it as just "Europe" I just find absurd.

There are plenty of countries I could recommend to live such as Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland, Italy (Tuscany), Croatia, Slovenia, Iceland, Portugal, Netherlands but you need to do some serious research into where you would want to live. Moving country is a huge undertaking and many of these countries won't take you if you don't have a relevant skill because you come from outside the EU. You should take 6 months out and travel to some of the areas you think you might like, see what sort of vibe you get, if you like it then do research of the place and whether or not they will take you. Language is a big+, if you’re serious on moving start working on the language they speak. Many places like the Scandinavian countries the people will speak English but you will still need to learn their local dialect if you go to France trying to speak English you won't get a warm welcome to say the least.

Originally posted by centurion1211
reply to post by snusfanatic

 

And one more key thing to remember:

Most of our ancestors worked very hard and were willing to or actually did sacrifice everything to get away from europe and come to America.

They were going to rebel anyway. They were deported from Europe for crimes and prostitution. The majority of people at first stage that formed the colonies were criminals and prostitutes because Europe deported at that time almost anyone that commited crimes such as murderer, roberies and prostitution. North America was like an Alcatraz but with the permision of moving around free. They had no other way. They could not go back and they had to live how Europe dictated them. Anyone would do the same, it's not about sacrifice.

What do you find heroic about a bunch of criminals rebeling against the Kings if they have no other option. You can't go back, you have to live like they tell you, of course you are going to rebel.

Soon they had children and like father like son behavior they killed all the indians in their way and then went to Africa to get some slaves.

Heroism and sacrifice has nothing to do with it, it's the willd west where people that were deported there did what they could to make it better for their self.



This with home of the brave, pride and honor is just BS so you will stay in line like a pawn. I hate pink clouds, it's just not reallity.



[edit on 9-11-2009 by pepsi78]

The first time I replied to your post, I thought you wanted real opinions, not just confirmation from other like-minded flower children. Your silly replies regarding writing a song about a groovy reply crack me up. And then there is this reply...

Originally posted by dragonsmusic
reply to post by BlesUTP

 

I do hope this reference on my thread to being shot in the back is metaphorical.
Otherwise it would involve lawyers which would open an investigation into the poster making a reference in order to find out whether the statement was in fact metaphorical.
If not then such a comment could lead to say, a lawyer requesting the names and addresses of said persons involved in order to present specific types of papers .
The latter of course is only if that wasn't metaphorical.
Regardless being shot in the back is not something I want even mentioned on this thread no matter who it is directed toward.
Hope you have a nice day

First it is not YOUR thread. ATS did not sell you a box of 1's & 0's after you wrote your dreams.
Secondly, Not only are you delusional with your "frolicking with other minstrels" ideas, but now you show your inability to fend for yourself in this reply. Lawyers are not the answer to any problem, they are part of the problem. What a crybaby! Grow up. Don't take it serious.

After you graduate with your LIBERAL arts degree, tell us what Starbucks you are working at so we can come in for a Latte.

Scratch that! I wouldn't be caught dead in a Starbucks.

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by centurion1211
reply to post by snusfanatic

 

And one more key thing to remember:

Most of our ancestors worked very hard and were willing to or actually did sacrifice everything to get away from europe and come to America.

They were going to rebel anyway. They were deported from Europe for crimes and prostitution. The majority of people at first stage that formed the colonies were criminals and prostitutes because Europe deported at that time almost anyone that commited crimes such as murderer, roberies and prostitution. North America was like an Alcatraz but with the permision of moving around free. They had no other way. They could not go back and they had to live how Europe dictated them. Anyone would do the same, it's not about sacrifice.

What do you find heroic about a bunch of criminals rebeling against the Kings if they have no other option. You can't go back, you have to live like they tell you, of course you are going to rebel.

Soon they had children and like father like son behavior they killed all the indians in their way and then went to Africa to get some slaves.

Heroism and sacrifice has nothing to do with it, it's the willd west where people that were deported there did what they could to make it better for their self.



This with home of the brave, pride and honor is just BS so you will stay in line like a pawn. I hate pink clouds, it's just not reallity.



[edit on 9-11-2009 by pepsi78]

Your post is utter nonsense and you have absolutetly no idea what you are talking about.

This is the most idiotic and ignorant line out of many.

The majority of people at first stage that formed the colonies were criminals and prostitutes because Europe deported at that time almost anyone that commited crimes such as murderer, roberies and prostitution.

Did you get that out of a North Korean history book?

FOOL.

well,,i its good you leave,,,,1 less doorknob...take your friends with you if you can....


do us all a favor...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by dragonsmusic

I don't understand what I'm supposed to ask the vets.
And I was never making any race related point about slavery.
Just that America being founded on it along with several other atrocities was not a very good begining.

EVERY nation was founded the same way, but some people forget this fact very fast.

I lived in Europe for 9 almost 10 years, and I saw discrimination towards non-Europeans, even when half of my family is from Europe, and my great-grandfather on my mother's side is from Ayo De Vidriales, in northern Zamora, meanwhile on my father's side they hail from Tenerife, in the canary island.

Even then i saw discrimination, because i was born in Cuba. Some of the adults are not that closed minded, and although there are, or were good things in Spain, and Portugal, some of which I miss, I will not move back there for any reason.

It makes me sad to say this, as I'm rather fond of Spaniards but they have become (or they always were) a very racist, intolerant country!

I have never known such racist abuse being shouted and chanted by an opposing football/soccer team than when a Spanish team plays us (us being Manchester United). Which, of course the English fans get very angry about and end up beating up the Spanish support.

When England played Spain a couple of years back, there were several black players playing in the English team and every time one of them touched the ball, the Spanish support would be making monkey noises and barking the most obscene abuse.

When there was a Formula One race in Spain, there was again lots of abuse at England's Louis Hamilton who is black (mixed race actually). Some complete pillocks in the crowd actually blacked up their faces and wrote "The Hamilton family" on a board. I mean! What decade are these people living in?!?

Also, as you noticed, the Spanish are extremely prejudiced about people from their old colonial countries, such as your beautiful Cuba and Mexico. I have a single internet friend. Just one friend who I met when I first went on the internet and we have become close friends since then. He is a very intelligent, open minded gentleman but I was shocked one day to hear what he had to say about Mexicans! I couldn't believe this was coming from the same person I had so much respect for!

The only time I have come across blatent racism though, was in Italy. That was really shocking! There are many African's who came over fairly recently and they have been completely segregated from society. They are almost in concentration camps! In England, I don't think I have seen a Swastika since the early 80's (except when it was anti-Nazi graffiti) but in south Italy, they were common! On so many walls in Cosenza I saw graffito Swastikas.

Then, going further East, racism becomes completely natural. In the ex-Soviet and ex-Communist countries of East Europe, they still believe black people are closer related to monkeys than to white men. These are countries where they probably have never ever seen a black person except for a football match, yet they have such dispicable views about them!

As you said, every empire was built on slavery! People often champion the British Empire, as they outlawed slavery reasonably early and they would attack Spanish, Dutch, American etc slave ships and free the slaves but people easily forget that the British Empire became the biggest, most powerful Empire the World has ever known and filthy rich to boot, because of (amongst other things) slavery.

I would like to say though, people have become very fond recently of smugly accusing Britain of many heinous crimes (with all due respect but many American's have recently been behaving in such a way, in the hope of belittling British achievement and I have no idea why they have started trying to be so nasty and anti-Brit), including and especially accusing Britain of inventing the concentration camp. It is true that the UK used such camps during the Boer War but they were set up to try and give prisoners of war a better life style than the imprisonment PoW's generally faced at the time. They got it completely wrong though and many PoW's died from disease and malnutrition but the camps were set up in the hope of treating PoW's better. Anyway, that's not the point, the point is that it is completely incorrect to accuse Britain of inventing concentration camps. I'm sure you, Electric Universe, know well that the Spanish were first to use them against your country people in Cuba! Even America used these camps against the native population before the Boer War.

You can go back in time as far as you like, you can search as many cultures and nations as you can find and you won't find a single group who hasn't taken part in slavery! Slavery of Africans, Slavery of minority religious groups, slavery of their own people. The Ancient Egyptions did it, the Romans, Greeks, Gauls and "Celts", Vikings, Saxons, Jutes, Britons, Mongols, African tribes have constantly sold those from their own tribes or they have taken members of a neighbouring tribe by force to sell to stronger cultures throughout history. I don't think we know for sure but I bet the Summerians used or sold slaves. Native tribes or North and South Americas used and sold tribes. I bet Cro-Magnon man did the same, possibly even using Neanderthal or vice versa. I bet the quiet and dignified Inuit tribes have done the same at some point in their existence!

Anyway, you get what I'm going on about!

Electric Universe. On my list of countries to visit before I die, Cuba is right near the top! What a beautiful country, with the most amazing people and history, culturally and politically! I really hope to see your country one day mate/amigo!

reply to post by dragonsmusic


Sorry friend, but you must be one of naivest youngsters on ATS. I for one am happy to see you go and the sooner the better... but why wait until you finish with your American degree? Is it that you just want to suck the very last bit of what ever you can get from our great nation to help you "look" better before you run away? (rhetorical questions)

IMO you and your like are the very cancer of any great nation because either you already wanted to leave many years ago, to fulfill some naive notion of a romantic fool's fantasy and for some reason needed to find an excuse to execute it, like your "it's all the USAs fault" pathetic excuse, in order to fit your agenda:

Originally posted by dragonsmusic
As a guitar player , singer, songwriter, I long for the days when I travel through Europe playing and singing with other musicians.

Maybe in your twisted reasoning, if you SAY (and post on ATS as if it was proof) that you are leaving because of the faults of America, your family & friends wouldn't once again tell you that you were running away on some childish hippy/gypsy quest or that they (family & friends) wouldn't at least think it?

If you truly love America, you would never runaway. A true American patriot will do what ever it takes to change, stop or fight to his last breath, that which is endangering our great nation or our freedom... and many have, that's why you have everything you enjoy this day.

Countless true Americans have sacrificed all their tomorrows, so you would be able to have today...

Originally posted by dragonsmusic
So America was doomed from the start with such a foundation.
As a citizen of this country I feel it is my duty to leave here with a respect...

How dare you speak of "duty" & "respect" in regards to America but have no clue what they truly mean. Stop blaming my great country (it is no longer yours) and start blaming yourself.