World’s third largest ice store vanishing!, page 8

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reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:03 AM by ViewFromTheStars

reply to post by Pathos

I understand what is happening Pathos, I'm just not going to get on the 'doom and gloom' or 'let's beat up and hate the humans' band wagon.

Furthermore, I'm not going to pander to pathetic morons who want to make money off of people who truly have no control nor truly effect the premise that's being used to attempt to siphon the money. We need to maintain judicious checks and balances to promote good behavior but to penalize humans for being human on such a scale? that's just retarded and if people want to rot their very soul by doing that? they can knock themselves out.. I'm not going to join them.

We may no be able to stop a 'supernova' like you say but in the meantime we can sure do our best to work around the problems in the RIGHT way.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by ViewFromTheStars]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:15 AM by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by loam
.................
Whatever you believe about how we got to this point, the situation does not look good for the near term. Is there any question humanity is in for some very difficult times?

Humanity has been on similar situations hundreds of times.... This is neither the warmest, nor the worse, and as we know winter has been setting earlier in many parts of the world, and lasting longer...

Perhaps some people also are forgetting that China has been seeing some very bad, and snowy winters, and the one in 2006 was the worse in 50-100 years...

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:20 AM by liveandletlive

Originally posted by ZombieOctopus
Haven't you heard? The Americans have decided global warming is a hoax and the Earth is actually cooling. If the American public has something to say about science, surely it must be true!

If all the ice on the planet disappeared over night, global warming would still be viewed as a leftist conspiracy in the only country that can lead the rest of the developed world by example.

Take a good look at those glaciers, or what's left of them, we're the last generation to lay eyes on them.

Sigh

Damn Americans! I heard ice caps are melting on other planets as well. When will we stop the bloody Americans from ruining everything including our solar system????? Something must be done to stop them! Thank god I live in TEXAS.

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:20 AM by loam

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Humanity has been on similar situations hundreds of times.... This is neither the warmest, nor the worse, and as we know winter has been setting earlier in many parts of the world, and lasting longer...

Can you point to any previous example where the water supply on one billion people was in peril? I'd like to review that information with more specificity.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Perhaps some people also are forgetting that China has been seeing some very bad, and snowy winters, and the one in 2006 was the worse in 50-100 years...

So significant snowfall in one place solves its absence in another place?

Are you people for real?

[edit on 9-11-2009 by loam]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:24 AM by Alferd Packer

Probably took this photo in the Summer. Ever hear of winter? Science proof? Good luck hiding the truth about global "warming"...science is not so easily persuaded like you humans.

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:27 AM by ViewFromTheStars

Originally posted by loam
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Humanity has been on similar situations hundreds of times.... This is neither the warmest, nor the worse, and as we know winter has been setting earlier in many parts of the world, and lasting longer...

Can you point to any previous example where the water supply on one billion people was in peril? I'd like to review that information with more specificity.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Perhaps some people also are forgetting that China has been seeing some very bad, and snowy winters, and the one in 2006 was the worse in 50-100 years...

So significant snowfall in one place solves its absence in another place?

Are you people for real?

[edit on 9-11-2009 by loam]

Good point Loam but the million dollar question is what can we do to help these billion people and what can these billion people do to work around this problem, the cause of which humans really have no control over?

Are we going to sit around and bicker, penalize, greedily capitalize/feed off each other, etc.. ad nauseum..???

I guess everyone has 'their' priorities.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by ViewFromTheStars]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:27 AM by liveandletlive

Originally posted by loam
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Humanity has been on similar situations hundreds of times.... This is neither the warmest, nor the worse, and as we know winter has been setting earlier in many parts of the world, and lasting longer...

Can you point to any previous example where the water supply on one billion people was in peril? I'd like to review that information with more specificity.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Perhaps some people also are forgetting that China has been seeing some very bad, and snowy winters, and the one in 2006 was the worse in 50-100 years...

So significant snowfall in one place solves its absence in another place?

Are you people for real?

[edit on 9-11-2009 by loam]

How many people live in China anyway? Wow thats a lot of people. Good thing they are heading up the enviromental movement and leaders in pollution reduction!

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:43 AM by loam

reply to post by ViewFromTheStars

Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars
Good point Loam but the million dollar question is what can we do to help these billion people and what can these billion people do to work around this problem, the cause of which humans really have no control over?

Are we going to sit around and bicker, penalize, greedily capitalize/feed off each other, etc.. ad nauseum..???

I guess everyone has 'their' priorities.

Indeed.

Why is that the only million dollar question?

Pull yourselves out of your soft and dull stupor...

How about the question that asks what happens when a billion people go looking for water?

[edit on 9-11-2009 by loam]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:49 AM by ViewFromTheStars

Soft dull stupor huh? Even in such a 'dull stupor', even I realize that these billion people are not "looking for water" as you say.. yet.

So whats that million dollar question again? It's what can these billion people do to work around a problem, albeit one that might be coming down the bend.

Another very expensive question is who really is in a soft dull stupor? I think you need to examine your own, very large log in your very own eye before you even attempt to lambaste me.

Better luck next time.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by ViewFromTheStars]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:56 AM by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by loam

Can you point to any previous example where the water supply on one billion people was in peril? I'd like to review that information with more specificity.

For crying out loud Loam...this is not the first time you have asked similar questions, and some other members or I have shown you that this has happened many times....

How do people like you like to forget that, for example, the Nile USED to be a lush region for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and for the most part it has become almost a barren desert.

Originally posted by loam

So significant snowfall in one place solves its absence in another place?

Are you people for real?

Wow...so tell us Loam, exactly what are you proposing. Do tell us please.... What can we do to please you?....

Because it is apparent to people like you that the Climate Change which is affecting ALL PLANETS and moons with an atmosphere in the Solar System has nothing to do with Climate Change on Earth..

It is very clear, apparently, to some people that the fact that the Earth's magnetic field being weaker, and having large fluctuations now than it has been for tens of thousands of years has NOTHING to do with the Climate Change we are experiencing...

Not to mention that we know for a fact that the Sun's activity is now weaker than it has been for at least 100 years, and instead the entire Solar System is receiving more high charged particles from outside the Solar System, and the energy levels of cosmic rays is at an all time high, or at least since we started observing space weather for at least 50 years... But that also has nothing to do with Climate Change...right?...

[edit on 9-11-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:56 AM by network dude

reply to post by loam

Loam,

I feel bad that your thread was hijacked so badly. I was interested in the discussion about where the water went to. If the glaciers melted, then the water would have flooded the rivers. It would have been noticed. People would have said something like "hey, I wonder where all this water came from?" then the melting of the glaciers would not have been such a surprise to everyone. None of that changes the fact that the region you are discussing is going to have some very big bad problems very soon. Just saying that they should move to a better area sounds fine until you count how many people are there. I think India has a rather large population. That is something that needs to be looked at very quickly. I think even before we find out who is to blame.

I reposted this as it seems to have been missed, or ignored.

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:57 AM by afterschoolfun

Do you have air temp graph of the area? The air temp could be below freezing but the ice can still melt. In the case of Mt. Kilimanjaro the air temp was below freezing but the radiation from the sun caused the ice to melt. Theres a bunch of articles but heres one

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 10:58 AM by j2000

The Govt's idea of global warming, oops, I guess not it's global climate change, is complete BS.

CO2, that is the biggest case of horse S..t I have ever heard. I guess everyone forgot about the BS deal they pulled on the OZONE layer and jacked up freon prices. Then when it comes out that did have anything to do with it, did freon come down?? Hell no.

If you want to talk about pollution, that is another subject. China, India and the likes puke out all kinds of nasty stuff. The mountains around the L.A. base had little or no snow when you could not breath the air out there 30 years also.

China does more polluting then the USA ever even thought about. Heck, look at the crap they ship over here for sale. That is why it's so cheap, is that it has no regulation.

You want to fix problems, here is a solution.
Mandate that any item imported into the USA has to be made with the same restrictions that we have here from the EPA. This will make them clean up thier act, raise the prices to a level where we can bring the jobs back here and compete.

This give all sides of the problem a plus.
But don't slap the US people up with this crap without making everyone follow the same. That is why we have no jobs that make anything anymore.

The problem with you lefties, is that you only want to cure your problems, instead of looking at the big picture.

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:00 AM by ElectricUniverse

reply to post by network dude

Loam is saying more than that.

If it was just to discuss real solutions of what these people can do, I would be agreeing and would try to think of REAL solutions.

But, I have have many discussions with Loam regarding this issue.

He, like some others, like to blame mankind and agrees with the fearmongering that the IPCC and others partake in.

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:04 AM by j2000

Here is another one for you Libs.

You call yourself Treehuggers. That is complete BS.

If you gave a hoot about trees, the Stimulus would have had billions in it for planting trees. Shelter tree belts save 25% on Energy costs and it's been a fact for a long time. Just ask a conservative farmer or anyone with some common sence.

Those in cities, keep building houses farther out. Go look at new houses, no trees. You put in two hundred houses, with no tree line shelter around it. Man, the arbor foundation gives them for FREE. How hard is that.

Why don't you go get your local laws changed to make it manditory for new housing to have a tree line. Do you know how many jobs that could be? Millions, that are "shovel ready". And I do mean shovel, not a big machine to cost more.

One last thing. What uses CO2 in mass quanties?

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:14 AM by jdub297

Originally posted by loamThis thread's initial post provides three primary 'facts' deserving of most of the discussion:

1) Tibetan Glaciers are disappearing,
2) More than 1 billion people will likely be affected,
3) The global ramifications could be significant.

Dispute, please, the fact of the ice's disappearance and it's significance to anyone in terms of scale and consequence.

OK.

1. The ice IS disappearing.

2. Its significance is that
a. China and India are poisoning themselves, while;
b. everyone wants to blame the West and CO2 emissions.

3. That has direct impact on the US and its citizens as we are being asked to pay for South Asian ignorance and indifference.

Why do I say this, you may ask?

What you fail to consider, is that while men are able to poison their environment locally, MAN cannot change the global climate by himself. (Our entire biomass is less than that of the annual Antarctic krill spawn, or the world-wide population of insects)

Nor is the West responsible for Eastern and Asian self-destruction.

You also seem to think that developed countries are responsible for the problems long observed in the Tibetan Plateau.

Politically correct? Of course. Popular? Obviously.

True? Absolutely not.

The Chinese and Indians have been dumping their excrement into the environment in huge and increasing volumes, and not only at their own expense, but (because of the “global implications”) at everyone else’s as well; including those countries (such as the US) that have taken measures to minimize their “carbon footprint!”

In a new research, scientists in India and China have determined that glaciers in the Himalayas and the Tibetan plateau that feed the river systems of almost half the world's people are melting faster because of the effects of clouds of soot from diesel fumes and wood fires.

According to a report in the Guardian, the results of the research, to be announced this month in Kashmir, show for the first time that clouds of soot - made up of tiny particles of "black carbon " emitted from old diesel engines and from cooking with wood, crop waste or cow dung - are "unequivocally having an impact on glacial melting" in the Himalayas.

Once the black carbon lands on glaciers, it absorbs sunlight that would otherwise be reflected by the snow, leading to melting. "This is a huge problem which we are ignoring," said Professor Syed Hasnain of the Energy and Resources Institute (Teri) in Delhi. "We are finding concentrations of black carbon in the Himalayas in what are supposed to be pristine, untouched environments," he added. The institute has set up two sensors in the Himalayas, one on the Kholai glacier that sits on the mountain range's western flank in Kashmir and the other flowing through the eastern reaches in Sikkim.

Glaciers in this region feed most of the major rivers in Asia. The short-term result of substantial melting is severe flooding downstream. Hasnain said that India and China produce about a third of the world's black carbon, and both countries have been slow to act. "India is the worst. At least in China, the state has moved to measure the problem. In Delhi. no government agency has put any sensors on the ground. Teri is doing it by ourselves," he said.

Decreasing black carbon emissions should be a relatively cheap way to significantly curb global warming. Black carbon falls from the atmosphere after just a couple of weeks, and replacing primitive cooking stoves with modern versions that emit far less soot could quickly end the problem. Controlling traffic in the Himalayan region should help ease the harm done by emissions from diesel engines.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com... 46.cms

Scientists who are not concerned with profiting from “AGW” have been saying this for YEARS!

Since this puts the onus on the real culprits, and diverts attention from the cash generating focus on industrialized countries’ CO2 emissions, no one wants to discuss it.

Black carbon, a form of particulate air pollution most often produced from biomass burning, cooking with solid fuels and diesel exhaust, has a warming effect in the atmosphere three to four times greater than prevailing estimates, according to scientists in an upcoming review article in the journal Nature Geoscience.
Scripps Institution of Oceanography at UC San Diego atmospheric scientist V. Ramanathan and University of Iowa chemical engineer Greg Carmichael, said that soot and other forms of black carbon could have as much as 60 percent of the current global warming effect of carbon dioxide, more than that of any greenhouse gas besides CO2. The researchers also noted, however, that mitigation would have immediate societal benefits in addition to the long term effect of reducing greenhouse gas emissions.
"Observationally based studies such as ours are converging on the same large magnitude of black carbon heating as modeling studies from Stanford, Caltech and NASA," said Ramanathan. "We now have to examine if black carbon is also having a large role in the retreat of arctic sea ice and Himalayan glaciers as suggested by recent studies."

www.sciencedaily.com...

Well, now we know that it does, don’t we?

In fact, the studies proving the LOCAL effect have existed almost for as long as the IPCC, which prefers to concentrate its studies on the greatest sources of its funding, the EU and US.

New research based on NASA satellite data and a multinational field experiment shows that black carbon aerosol pollution produced by humans can impact global climate as well as seasonal cycles of rainfall. Because aerosols that contain black carbon both absorb and reflect incoming sunlight, these particles can exert a regional cooling influence on Earth's surface that is about 3 times greater than the warming effect of greenhouse gases. But even as these aerosols reduce by as much as 10 percent the amount of sunlight reaching the surface, they increase the solar energy absorbed in the atmosphere by 50 percent -- thus making it possible to both cool the surface and warm the atmosphere.

Scientists are concerned that this heating may perturb atmospheric circulation and rainfall patterns. Averaged over the entire northern Indian Ocean, the man-made pollutants reflected more solar radiation back to space (than pristine skies), but they absorbed up to twice as much radiation in the atmosphere. Data for their investigation were collected during the Indian Ocean Experiment (INDOEX) -- an international multi-agency measurement campaign conducted from January through March in the years 1997, 1998 and 1999. As a result of human industry -- automobiles, factories and burning vegetation -- particles build up in the atmosphere where they are blown southward over most of the tropical Indian Ocean. The Indo-Asian haze covered an area larger than that of the United States.

www.unisci.com...

Thus, you see that China and India are destroying their local environs.

They are responsible for altering the lives and welfare of their own populations.

The US,and the West generally, are being asked to pay for it.

Oh, and the Chinese and India are united (along with the other BRIC nations) to fight against global CO2 remediation and reduction:

World's Largest Polluters Unite Against "Carbon Schemes."
www.abovetopsecret.com...

So give credit where credit is due: China and India are destroying their own people and landscapes ( at OUR expense).

Deny ignorance.

jw

[edit on 9-11-2009 by jdub297]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:15 AM by loam

reply to post by ViewFromTheStars

Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars
Soft dull stupor huh?

My apologies... That really wasn't intended at you specifically, but to many participants in this thread, generally. Thus my use of the word 'yourselves'.

It is eminently frustrating that it has become nearly impossible to discuss on this board *any* evidence of climate change (however local) and its likely impact without the knee jerk reaction of those who are far more interested in changing such thread topics to accommodate their efforts to mindlessly spew a political position.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
How do people like you like to forget that, for example, the Nile USED to be a lush region for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and for the most part it has become almost a barren desert.

Hmmmm food for thought. What happened to the ancient Egyptians?

Incidentally, were a billion of them involved? How fast did it all happen? I'd like to see those links.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Wow...so tell us Loam, exactly what are you proposing. Do tell us please.... What can we do to please you?....

Stay on-topic.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Because it is apparent to people like you that the Climate Change which is affecting ALL PLANETS and moons with an atmosphere in the Solar System has nothing to do with Climate Change on Earth..

It is very clear, apparently, to some people that the fact that the Earth's magnetic field being weaker, and having large fluctuations now than it has been for tens of thousands of years has NOTHING to do with the Climate Change we are experiencin...

Not to mention that we know for a fact that the Sun's activity is now weaker than it has been for at least 100 years, and instead the entire Solar System is receiving more high charged particles, and the energy levels of cosmic rays is at an all time high, or at least since we started observing space weather for at least 50 years... But that also has nothing to do with Climate Change...right?...

This isn't a global warming causation thread.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Loam is saying more than that.

Demonstrate your outstanding reading comprehension skills and do tell us what loam is saying.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
But, I have have many discussions with Loam regarding this issue.

He, like some others, like to blame mankind and agrees with the fearmongering that the IPCC and others partake in.

Post a single example demonstrating this specious statement.

You can't.

reply to post by j2000

Originally posted by j2000
Here is another one for you Libs.

I love it when I get called a Lib.

reply to post by jdub297

Originally posted by jdub297
1. The ice IS disappearing.

2. Its significance is that
a. China and India are poisoning themselves, while;
b. everyone wants to blame the West and CO2 emissions.

3. That has direct impact on the US and its citizens as we are being asked to pay for South Asian ignorance and indifference.

...

Thus, you see that China and India are destroying their local environs.

They are responsible for altering the lives and welfare of their own populations.

The US,and the West generally, are being asked to pay for it.

...

So give credit where credit is due: China and India are destroying their own people and landscapes ( at OUR expense).

Deny ignorance.

Nicely done.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by loam]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:16 AM by ViewFromTheStars

Personally, although I do find the question as to where the water went curious it's not really high on the list considering other, more pressing issues. If it caused flooding and damage I'd be more concerned about it but....

J2000, you make some very good suggestions but I'd be careful though: There are a few powerful people in high places that are parroting this but they also want one world government and think that's the only way to achieve such goals.

Again, what can be done to head this problem off at the pass? I have a TON of suggestions I'd like to throw out there but I'm out of time for now.

One thing I'd like to say though, I HATE the spirit that's behind anything 'anti human' and 'anti human process'. I.E. Population reduction, eugenics, inordinate taxing, etc etc etc. I try to separate this spirit from the people who pander to it but it's very hard for me to do.. especially recently. (I'm doing my best not to hate these looser anti-human/"serf" haters) I love my fellow humans (Even the ignorant ones) with the Love of Christ and hating on our brothers and sisters is not the answer to our problems.. it never has been, and never will be. We ALL are ignorant starting out and at one point or another. You get the point.

I definitely didn't mean to derail the thread but for the Love of God, WHAT ARE IDEAS FOR SOLUTIONS? isn't that the purpose of this thread.. Really?

?????

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:26 AM by j2000

reply to post by j2000

A little more for your CO2.

If every American family planted just one tree, the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere would be reduced by one billion lbs annually. This is almost 5% of the amount that human activity pumps into the atmosphere each year.

www.coloradotrees.org...

Can you imagine if everyone on the planet did this.

It is Ironic that the All of North America has 5% of the world population.
Asia has 60.4%.

en.wikipedia.org...

In other words, if everyone on the planet would plant one tree a year, within 5 to 7 years, we would not make enough CO2 to feed them.

But I guess that would be an "Inconvienent Truth" that would give nobody any power and money.
Really sucks when the solution is so simple.

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:27 AM by jsmappy

If you think Americans can do ANYTHING that will affect weather patterns around the world, then you are primed to be taken for everything you have.
Do you think Al Gore gives a crap about the fact that he uses more energy than a small country alone, or that he has made millions upon millions of dollars pushing this crap.
They cannot even decide if the Earth is warming or cooling (This year was the coldest in recent history) let alone what causes it. Man can no more change the weather nor destroy the Earth EVEN IF THEY SET OUT TO DO SO!
There is a concept called greed. It will use any means to seperate you from your cash.... in the name of Healthcare, Bailouts,Terrorism, and even environmentalism.
In 1976, they thought they could use Global Cooling to accomplish this- it failed. We are not that significant. Don't fall for it.