This is the United States of America, Not Europe

reply to post by semperfortis


yes the uk millions of refugees are desparate to get in here because the government is trying to dilute the english population and it is working.
the refugees get more help and assistance the the natives. soon there will be no english. even now in some citys the native english will soon become a minority.

Originally posted by Rhetoric
So, wanting to bring our infant mortality, life expectancy, health care effectiveness and health care accessibility more in line with European and other industrialized nations, means we want to "Be Europe", than so be it.

I would rather have the national health care of Europe than Somalia any day.

You’re comparing the United States healthcare system to Somalia? Can you provide a source for your information?

reply to post by boaby_phet

Im glad that the us government has voted and i hope it gets past the next stage as well...

You're glad that we are getting bills crammed down our throats that will, actually, make things worse, than better? Here are just a couple of things of which you're probably not aware.

One Senate bill extends pharmaceutical companies' branded drugs patent protection, on biologic drugs, to 12 years. Meaning the cheaper generics will be delayed. There is no exclusivity for these type drugs, now, but chenical drugs are only protected for 5 years. www.baltimoresun.com...

None of the current bills provide tort reform. Wonder why? Remember the 'Big Tobacco' lawsuits? The lawyers, representing the States, received billions of dollars. Some up to $130,000 per hour!

Yeah, this is gonna help.

reply to post by WTFover


Let's take it one step further my friend.


I challenge members to show proof in black and white a guarantee that this bill will make healthcare more affordable.

A challenge to find where this bill will bring down the costs of healthcare?

Please do not bother providing sentences with the words "might, may, could, should, would, ought to or any other similar words that only exist as a possibility."

Show me words like "Will save or Will reduce."

I also challenge members to find out exactly how many of those 47 million without insurance this bill will cover. After all the original intent of this bill was to get all Americans covered. And if this bill doesn't cover those 47 million Americans within 2 to 4 years, then this bill should have never been passed.

reply to post by jam321


I would say that is an excellent challenge. Unfortunately, few people on this thread (who support the bill) ever provide facts. It's always just emotion, with most.

reply to post by WTFover


Well, the challenge stands for all.

The fact is that there are no guarantees. Everything is based on the belief that savings will materialize and costs will go down, except they forgot to tackle the issue of risings costs.

This whole thing has been a game of hide and seek and mass confusion.

I could have respected the vote more if everything had been done on the up and up.

Originally posted by tom.farnhill
reply to post by semperfortis

 

yes the uk millions of refugees are desparate to get in here because the government is trying to dilute the english population and it is working.
the refugees get more help and assistance the the natives. soon there will be no english. even now in some citys the native english will soon become a minority.

I hear you. The TITLE here should be the United States and EU of the Middle East-----subtitle ---USA and EU of Israel. Do you think the entire ME is working against Christians at large?
In the states, in England, in the EU, in Australia. NZ. S Africa. Any where there are Christians?
Yes and Russia TOO.
Do we all see the media trying to split us apart with hate and a lack of government control of financial stability.? Do we see appointed officials doing the dirty work while the elected officials stand by and sell out their constituents?

like i said before, i wasnt in this to stir and im not going to, sorry .. thats my thoughts and i stand by them ...

i also compared this to the anti gun argument... theirs no point discussing it with most americans, such as yourself, as you have already made up yourmind and will not listen to anything that is the negative to your thoughts.

your allowed your view and im not denying you that, and im allowed mine.

but really - if anyone you should be listening to on this issue its the people who actualy know this as normality! At the end of the day you have your views.. thats your call.

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by WTFover

 

Let's take it one step further my friend.


I challenge members to show proof in black and white a guarantee that this bill will make healthcare more affordable.

A challenge to find where this bill will bring down the costs of healthcare?

Please do not bother providing sentences with the words "might, may, could, should, would, ought to or any other similar words that only exist as a possibility."

Show me words like "Will save or Will reduce."

I also challenge members to find out exactly how many of those 47 million without insurance this bill will cover. After all the original intent of this bill was to get all Americans covered. And if this bill doesn't cover those 47 million Americans within 2 to 4 years, then this bill should have never been passed.

If I tell you---- will you promise to give me truck loads of that green stuff falling out of your Avatar's hat? If you do fhen I would make you my campaign manager. When I get elected I could appoint you to be a Secretary or Minister of some high level. I could get your mothers old bosse's son an appointment to. Shoot, I could get your whole race up here in our cabinet!! Then we can do what ever the F we want. Deal?

If its worked in all other countries, than that should be a good pointer. If this healthcare change DOESNT work, then i guess you americans screwed up.

Obama is probably done then... history... and that should please most of you it seems. So why not let him dig his own grave? Afraid this reform is acctually going to work out for the best?


Honestly.. about every country in the world sees Obama as a good guy etc.. and then some of you come crying "just because"..

Why? Because he's on the "other team"?
He's a democrat and therefore we oppose him? Seems foolish.

How about you give the world's countries SOME credibility when they see that this is a good guy instead of sitting there alone like a stubborn crybaby.

Originally posted by WTFover
reply to post by Kryties

 

Edit: What I meant to say, but got ahead of myelf, is that even one immigrant trying to change the country they immigrate to is too many. Sorry for any confusion.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by WTFover]

Thats pretty funny....How would you feel if one country was trying to change other countries using military force? Hey wait a minute.....I know such a country! THE USA!

So what is worst?

Originally posted by WTFover

...I, simply, asked why are our immigration numbers so high, if our country is so horrible.

Who said your country was horrible? It's very nice. "Persecution complex" much?

Originally posted by WTFover

Okay? So there are twice as many immigrants to 23 countries as there are to the United States of America. Your point would be?

Err...the US is about the same size (geographically) as those 23 countries.


Given that (according to the figures you provided) European immigrants to the US make up just about 10% or so of the total I fail to see what your rationale is for this anti-European nonsense.

Calm down.

When did this become about Europeans trying to change America? Where is this supposed European influence coming from? As far as I can see, the reforms have been pushed through by Obama (you may debate his heritage but no-one has ever claimed he was from Europe!) and the Dems, who are American, yes? The only times I have seen Europeans mention it anywhere but internet message boards (and let's be honest, no-one on the net is changing squat, not you, not me, not anybody) is when they have been "vox-popped" on the street or interviewed on American news networks. Most of us I'm sure like the idea of the US doing something that will help it's citizens for once, but normally we don't give two hoots unless it's to respond to some outright lies about our own healthcare systems.

Do you (and I suspect this of a lot of so-called Amurrican patriots) hate the idea of your tax money helping out another human being? The "I earned it, it's mine, not his!" attitude of many Americans is an affront and also kinda flies in the face of their purported Christian beliefs. I know that you're not all Christian, but an awful lot of the anti-healthcare protestors seemed to be white middle-class Republicans who would more than likely be Christian. Would Jesus quibble over giving a portion of earnings to help his fellow man? I doubt it.

Capitalism = greed.

Greed is not good.

Anyway, it is rather hilarious for an American to spout off about anyone influencing events in their country when that is all America ever does! Politically and commercially, you just can't keep your noses out of other people's business, so don't expect 'bitching rights' when it happens to you.

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by WTFover

 

Well, the challenge stands for all.

The fact is that there are no guarantees. Everything is based on the belief that savings will materialize and costs will go down, except they forgot to tackle the issue of risings costs.

This whole thing has been a game of hide and seek and mass confusion.

I could have respected the vote more if everything had been done on the up and up.

I CANNOT meet your challenge

However, I did the math on the trajertory of the current system. Just math, you take it
how you do

The current HC inflation if projected at this rate for fifty years

Today, the average cost of a family health insurance offered by an employer is $14,975. That's up 131% over the last decade—a period in which inflation rose only 28%. And one estimate says that if costs continue on their current trajectory, premiums will go up another 166% in the decade ahead.
The data was collected by the Kaiser Family Foundation

money.blogs.time.com...


SO according to this DATA -

We see that premiums have risen 131% in the last decade.

So lets do some simple math here -

One decade from now the current rate of $15,000 a year to cover a family of four (rounded up)

Year - 2019

+ 131% increase as is the trend

= $34,650

Two decades

Year - 2029

+131% increase as is the trend

= $80,041

Three decades

Year - 2039

+131% increase as is the trend

= $184,894

Four decades

Year - 2049

+131% increase as is the trend

$427,105

Five decades

Year - 2059

+131% increase as is the trend

$986,612

So if this system runs the way it has been for the next fifty years a family of four will
be paying $989,612 for coverage


That is $247,403 per person per policy in fifty the year 2059.

$247,403 times a population of 350,000,000( provided population grows slowly )

='s

8.659105 × 10 (13)

The fifty year number is shocking -

Even if it were 90% off... Completely insane cost

What ever we do we should start doing it now-


[edit on 9-11-2009 by Janky Red]

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Janky Red]

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Janky Red]

Originally posted by Daniem
If its worked in all other countries, than that should be a good pointer...

Honestly.. about every country in the world sees Obama as a good guy etc.. and then some of you come crying "just because"..

How about you give the world's countries SOME credibility when they see that this is a good guy instead of sitting there alone like a stubborn crybaby.

This is exactly what the thread is all about! Do you consult the "world's countries" before you make your decision at the voting booth? Do you establish your political ideology based on what every other country thinks you should? If so, then all of the NWO conspiracies are completely accurate. All I'm saying is leave us to make our own decisions. Regardless of what many on this thread think, we can think for ourselves. And prefer it that way.

There are some who graciously offer their opinion on the European style health care system. Fine, don't have a problem with that. Thanks. Then there are those, like you, who have the gall to, basically, say 'We are right. You are wrong. Do as we say, because we know what is best for you'.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by WTFover]

reply to post by WTFover


the previous reply was accurate!

How about you give the world's countries SOME credibility when they see that this is a good guy instead of sitting there alone like a stubborn crybaby.

this thread Is basicly about people NOT being stubborn cry babys?

you want people to be stubborn cry babys?

have you ever heard the phrase "dont cut off your own nose to spite your face" it applys a great deal here!..

the facts and figures on your current healthcare costs have been posted here, honest views by people who have lived under the same sort of system all our lives in various different countries has also been posted here, yet you still want to be stubborn and not accept it ? .... its not that anyone here really cares if you accept it, i for sure dont.... if you want to spend £50000 a year on private insurance then thats your option, a public healthcare system DOES NOT TAKE THAT AWAY FROM YOU ... it just stops you NEEDING IT TO GET BASIC MEDICAL ATTENTION.

in the uk , you will never ever ever get turnned away from A+E because of your monetary or insurance status...and thats the way it SHOULD be! which is a great difference to the american system where people have been left to die or had work stopped on them when the hospitals realise they dont have the insurance or money to cover the procedure... that really sickens me.

also, as posted already here ... you seem to have some sort of complex that the world is trying to run america, whilst blissfully ignoring how much meddeling the usa has done in recent times.... just how many innocent people and soldiers have and are still dieing in iraq and afganistan because of AMERICA?? ... really, dont do their telling the world not to have an opinion in american affairs is crazy when we have had them rammed down our throat scince 9/11 !

reply to post by WTFover


People move for many reasons, i would say simply work would be a good reason. Highly educated people within certain fields tend to move around a lot. However the other reason could simply be space. Here in the UK it's rather small, there are no real wildernesses and that would be my sole reason for moving to the states. Although i think i'd probably hit Canada instead because their healthcare system is very like ours

My question to you would be this.

If another country has a system that works far better than the current one you employ then why are you so against using it? The USA spends more per person on healthcare and yet you have slightly less life expectancy.

So the real question is why exactly you are all for supporting a system that costs more and works less well?

reply to post by WTFover



No, you do not. But what you also do not do, especially in a time of financial uncertainty, is set about attempting to reinvent the wheel. The US had plenty of working models to chose from, they ignored every single one of them or have twisted whichever they did choose so that it is unrecognizable.

I used to think the US system was an imitation of the French system, and of course the French have the best health care system in the world. But this does not seem to be the case. Instead it is some bastardized system where private individuals/corporations benefit from health of the public.

The French system has never turned a profit, so in a country where the only thing that is really important is profit, healthcare will never be affordable, it will never be free, and health decisions will always come down to cost.vs.profit.

The idea that a nations healthcare has to be profitable is abhorent to my mind. How you make a profit on someone elses misfortune is beyond me. Is this the sign of a 'civilised' society?

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door


BUT.....
Don't let them bring any of their funny European ways with them. Make sure that they will believe unswervingly in all we TELL them. Of course, as 'aliens' we can mess with their rights. Oh, and no socialists. Geesh!

Originally posted by quackers
reply to post by WTFover

 

No, you do not. But what you also do not do, especially in a time of financial uncertainty, is set about attempting to reinvent the wheel. The US had plenty of working models to chose from, they ignored every single one of them or have twisted whichever they did choose so that it is unrecognizable.

I used to think the US system was an imitation of the French system, and of course the French have the best health care system in the world. But this does not seem to be the case. Instead it is some bastardized system where private individuals/corporations benefit from health of the public.

The French system has never turned a profit, so in a country where the only thing that is really important is profit, healthcare will never be affordable, it will never be free, and health decisions will always come down to cost.vs.profit.

Very good sense here. Corruption in both the health care systems and the insurance industry
coupled with the insanity of the Bar is and are the reasons of the spiraling costs.
GREED is the only culprit here.
Oh yeah I forgot Pharmaceuticals.
Now what about the catch 22 when a government
that has totally screwed up everything American since WW 2.
How the crap can they make anything BETTER?