I beg of you read this. Stop the drama...

Originally posted by NibiruWarrior
I think if the people of the united states overthrows their government, the rest of the world will stand up to their own and we are on to a winner, yes.

That is the way I feel too. We are going to be a catalyst to major changes. It can be crap or the dark ages? What will we choose? Responsibility? I hope so.

[edit on 11/8/2009 by Draves]

Unfortunately we will not ever make a real change in America. As was stated earlier in the post, as long as you have something, you wont risk losing it for a cause. Only when you have nothing left to lose will you fight, rebel,organize, commit civil disobedience.

We are a country divided by race, religion, regions, morals, and parties. We collectively as a group will not unite in a common effort to take back our country from the political machine that is running it. People will argue that we are not divided, but the fact is we are, and as a whole we have been manipulated to be this way.

Take the race issue. This country stays divided on the issue of minority status. The minority representatives fan the flames to make sure this group feels threatened and mistreated by the Caucasian group. They propagate that they have been held back because of some secret hatred movement throughout the country's history. It is acknowledged that there were some terrible things done in the past American history, but since the mid 1960's great milestones have been reached to level, and even tilt the playing field in the opposite direction. Whether you agree or disagree with this, it is a major point of division in the country, and one that keeps us from uniting for a common goal to change the way our country is going.

The next division is religion. The fact is that most of the founders and most of this country is in some shape or form related to Christianity. We have seen an assault on this religion for the past 20 years here in America. We cant say a Christian based prayer in schools, yet other religions can have prayer time, we cant say Christmas, yet others can express their holidays, we cant even acknowledge God, yet others can acknowledge their Lord. This is a wedge that divides us, and I believe it is orchestrated to serve that purpose. Most Americans do not care whom someone worships, but they do care when you force one religion out of the mainstream, while allowing all the others to flourish.

Moral beliefs also divide us. One very dividing topic is abortion. Some say it is murder while others say it is simply a woman's choice. Regardless of where you stand on this issue, more than likely it is on one side or the other. The fact that we stand on opposite sides on this issue, will not allow us in good conscience to join together, at least not until we have all lost so much we no longer have anything to lose, and to not unite would be suicide.

Last is regions and parties. Even today you see a North/South division. You see it in football game crowds, and in the business world. Our cultural regions we are from cast a prejudice upon us by others, whether it is deserved or not. As for political parties we treat these as team sports, we stick with our team not because they are so much better, but because we relate to them. We want our team to win at all costs.

We could solve our problems in 4 election cycles by voting every one of the incumbent politicians out, by the end of 4 years we should have seen congressional elections as well as presidential elections. We could get rid of lifetime politicians and keep a fresh diverse group in congress and the white house making current decisions that reflect the people.

Alas Drakes, we will sit and waller in our misery for quite a while longer before enough of us are ready to do something to take our country back,

Originally posted by The Transhumanist
reply to post by johnny2127

 

I understand why you think peaceful resistance is futile in America. But so far all I have heard from you is condemnations of methods of achieving change. So what are your ideas? It's easy to put down the ideas of others let's here some from you.

And to the OP, as I stated before, it is pointless for everyone to go and quit their jobs and refuse to pay taxes until we find some real solidarity. If we find solidarity, we will be a monolithic force. If not, we are a bunch of argumentative people without jobs. I don't know about you, but until the majority can agree on the solution to at least one issue, I am going to keep my job. This really isn't the economy to risk that sort of thing.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by The Transhumanist]

Damn so sad. I wish we all had the willpower to quit jobs and rebel, but that isn't realistic. So what then? Stop paying taxes is a great idea. If everyone stopped paying UNCONSTITUTIONAL income taxes that would definitely shake things up. It would also give us more money.

Emotion is definitely being used to drive people away from solutions and into just expressing their feeling and venting their frustrations. No question the media steers the population into emotional responses and away from seeking answers. Thinking in other words is being replaced by feeling. Focus on feelings, find out what it takes emotionally to feel okay about something then move on without regard to what caused it, what needs to be done, etc.. It is part of the control mechanism.

People are too caught up in their own selfishness to align with a side. Men are being feminized. Perhaps the society is being steered towards a matriarchal society.

How do you save a world that doesn't want to be saved? It's not as simple as getting a large group together. The tea parties failed miserably and barely attracted the interest of anyone outside of FOX news. Ghandi couldn't save us, hunger strikes are old news.

Do you really believe you are in the majority? For every person I meet that has views similar to mine and yours, there are those who think everything is fine, and there are also those who want to rewind the decade and hope things play out differently.

You're right that bloodshed isn't going to make things better. You're going to become the creator of your own nightmares if you decide to think with your gun. But neither is sending thousands of angry letters or standing outside the capitol. What really has to be done is to force the governments into a situation that's going to tick them off. Something that can't be ignored. An organized group of tax resistors, or tax redirection (giving your taxes to the programs you believe they should rightfully go to) would bring a country to it's knees.

Originally posted by doped00
Agreed. How shall we start?

We'll start with a small group. Then we will make a large group. Then we will change things. It doesn't take more than two to start a revolution. From there it goes exponential.

Why two?

No exponential function will go anywhere with only one. If the function only produces one variable then it is pointless. Once you get an exponential function you will see exponential change. Math is a representative of life. We need two to start this(that can work together). I found a second. I hope I can continue this.

Originally posted by LiveForever8
reply to post by Draves

 

I truly believe the only way a real change will come is through bloodshed.



I "feel" what youre saying but would like to add to that if I may,

I truly believe the only way a real change will come is through bloodshed.
So much blood shed that its everywhere and killing is just being done for killings sake millions and billions killing or being killed, so much killing that KILLING is actually ,killed.
The few left will not kill, or teach killing for quite awhile.
And its probable that we may see this.
But I'm going to say , yes, I see what youre saying.

Originally posted by ohsnaptruth
research Ghandi, he was assassinated for being a peace-maker.

He freed a country of over a billion....it is such a sad truth. Someone needs to be a martyr.

Originally posted by NibiruWarrior
reply to post by Draves

 

We need to creat a website that is on an independant server or ISP, and get it out there to the people so that they know about it and then, only then, we can organise how we are going to do this... A lot of people will walk away because of the type of site this is, simply due to its name and type of site. We need it to be something like "takingbacktheworld.com" or "restorepowertothepeople.com" or "nomoreTPTB.com" or something like that, something with bite and credulity, something people will actually log-on, pledge their participancy, and plan to make their stand with the rest of us on, then do it, all together.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by NibiruWarrior]

[edit on 8-11-2009 by NibiruWarrior]

Working on it as we speak... If I can we can band together and make a site that rivals everything. It could be the thing we needed. There is no reason that we can' use this site in the meantime.

I respect the ideas you're presenting here, but I think that which stands in the way of change and progress is simply philosophical and ideological. Taking action now, in some political or economic way, would be a bit shortsighted I think.

Like you, I feel that rushed urge to "act", but I think that's premature. The majority still believes far too much in this system and the structure of our society. They don't even acknowledge the underlying issues causing problems for the human race.

I mean, for instance, you've mentioned a "popular vote" and I think that's better than an "electorate"... but pushing for a popular vote today would be a horrible idea. The mainstream media has so much control over the majority and people are so divided by these silly labels we're fed all the time.

When people exercise free and critical thinking skills, then a popular vote would be a good idea.

One of the big problems to overcome is that people trust "educators" and "experts" to tell us what we need to know. We have a hierarchy of knowledge in which you must be initiated into the various levels to obtain information and be granted the "credibility" to share that information.

In order to improve human life on this planet, we need to first change the prevailing philosophy on which our society is structured. This can only be done gradually, over generations.

That may not be the "action" you're looking for. There is no instant gratification for you. I recommend spending a lot of time talking to the children in your life openly... they are the future, and the future is theirs.

You're absolutely right about drama. It's difficult to get people to broaden their vision from their personal situation and environment, to get them to realize how the state of the world affects them personally.

Originally posted by HappilyEverAfter

Originally posted by LiveForever8
reply to post by Draves

 

I truly believe the only way a real change will come is through bloodshed.



I "feel" what youre saying but would like to add to that if I may,

I truly believe the only way a real change will come is through bloodshed.
So much blood shed that its everywhere and killing is just being done for killings sake millions and billions killing or being killed, so much killing that KILLING is actually ,killed.
The few left will not kill, or teach killing for quite awhile.
And its probable that we may see this.
But I'm going to say , yes, I see what youre saying.

We tried that in WWI and WWII. Are there sacrifices forgotten? Are the hopes forgotten? Would they do it over again? We need a new solution....

Hmmm... very interesting discussion and opinions on all sides. I'll keep reading and following along (though so far I'm leaning toward some of the opposing views)...

...BUT I will NOT flag only because I think it is rather presumptuous and distasteful to ask readers to "please flag" - in the title of your post no less!

It's like a politician coming around asking for votes and endorsements and money before he/she even explains his/her position on anything.

Why should I vote for you? because you "asked" me to, or because you earned, and deserved my trust (and thus, my vote)?

Good luck...

reply to post by Draves


Would they do it again?

Need i list all of the pointless wars we have been involved in since WW2?

I think you are being naive. There would be bloodshed, no doubt, if a major change was to happen. Its inevitable.

Here is how i see it:

Awareness

"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free."

Make the masses aware.

Exposure

Once awareness has been achieved, we must expose. Media. Banking. Politics. Etc etc......

They are corrupt, lets prove it.

That is just the beginning.

You are getting way ahead of yourself at the moment.

Peace.

We tried that in WWI and WWII. Are there sacrifices forgotten? Are the hopes forgotten? Would they do it over again? We need a new solution....

Sadly Draves, amplify that by a factor of 10 and compress the time span into under a years length. WW1 WW2 will pale in compare.

reply to post by LiveForever8

Wrong. Gandhi was killed because he was disliked by a lot of people in India at the time. He neglected certain minorities within his policies and these minorities eventually sought revenge. Gandhi was no god. He was FAR from perfect, and achieved independence with the help of MANY others who receive no recognition. Its pointless even mentioning his name in this context. His methods will NOT achieve anything in America. Satyagraha is outdated im afraid. Peace.

So what's your solution?

And to the OP, you still haven't stated what changes you feel are necessary.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by The Transhumanist]

Originally posted by eMachine
I respect the ideas you're presenting here, but I think that which stands in the way of change and progress is simply philosophical and ideological. Taking action now, in some political or economic way, would be a bit shortsighted I think.

Like you, I feel that rushed urge to "act", but I think that's premature. The majority still believes far too much in this system and the structure of our society. They don't even acknowledge the underlying issues causing problems for the human race.

I mean, for instance, you've mentioned a "popular vote" and I think that's better than an "electorate"... but pushing for a popular vote today would be a horrible idea. The mainstream media has so much control over the majority and people are so divided by these silly labels we're fed all the time.

When people exercise free and critical thinking skills, then a popular vote would be a good idea.

One of the big problems to overcome is that people trust "educators" and "experts" to tell us what we need to know. We have a hierarchy of knowledge in which you must be initiated into the various levels to obtain information and be granted the "credibility" to share that information.

In order to improve human life on this planet, we need to first change the prevailing philosophy on which our society is structured. This can only be done gradually, over generations.

That may not be the "action" you're looking for. There is no instant gratification for you. I recommend spending a lot of time talking to the children in your life openly... they are the future, and the future is theirs.

You're absolutely right about drama. It's difficult to get people to broaden their vision from their personal situation and environment, to get them to realize how the state of the world affects them personally.

Oh yeah...the media comes up. That is what theses sites and the internet is for. The media doesn't control anything. The government does! Dig into the rabbit hole. I swear it will f* you up worse than any drug.

It has to start somewhere. Why not an ATS? Why not you? Why not them? Why not me? We all need a scapegoat. I am more than willing to be the goat as long as something happens. I would gladly give my life to make this world great. Give me the opportunity and I will make your dreams come true. I am a manipulative bastard. I am sick of the dark side. It goes nowhere. I am ready to make this world the way it should be. No one will understand this....but truly I love everyone and I wish you the best of luck. I just want to make it so you no longer need luck. Lets all live the same.

Bah. Socialist? Communist? No. I am a humanist. We are human and we can do great things. We will never discover this universe unless we realize ourselves.

If I was an alien I wouldn't set foot on this planet. We are too strung up. You wonder why there isn't disclosure? It probably isn't us...it is probably the aliens saying if you tell them I will kill you and every generation of you until your genes are eradicated from the universe.

That would motivate me a little.


But truly. If I could give everything I am, everything I was, Everything I could be, I would easily give everything if it meant the world could grow up the way I want. I wish, I hope, I dream. We'll see.

reply to post by The Transhumanist


My solution is stated above...sort of.

But once again........

Seriously now Draves......what are you going to do tomorrow?

Where is this going?

What is your plan?

Talk is cheap...

Peace.

reply to post by LiveForever8



You were just as vague as the OP. I'm still waiting for specifics from both of you. It's easy to shoot down other ideas. It takes courage and reason to come up with your own solutions.

Let's start with this; what specifically are the main problems we are facing?

I think if we can find a consensus on the problems we can start to find common ground within a solution.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by The Transhumanist]

Originally posted by mrsdudara
reply to post by Draves

 

Growing up and joining the adult world means a lot more than going to and from work everyday earning a paycheck. You have to fight, and make sacrifices. Violence is not something people want. Fighting, is a sacrifice we make to ensure a good life not only for ourselves, but for those who are too young, old, or disabled to do fight for themselves.

Nobody is going to give me anything for free. Everything comes at a price.

When you make the sacrifice, and fight, it is usually not for yourself. I fight for my children. There are people out there who want what I have. There are people out there who feel that my children and I should not be alowed to live. When they take from me, they take from my children. It is my job to protect them. It is not just burglers or terrorists who threaten the security of my childrens future. Sometimes it can be the government. I am sure that all the above would love it if I would just sit there and do nothing. I do not have that luxury. If I do nothing, it puts their lives at risk. It is my responsibility to protect them.

It is your responsibility to protect them. That is why we should step up and make this world the way we want it so our children don't have to.

It is better to take the burden now than place it on our children