It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by Libertygal
reply to post by SantaClaus
But guess what? If you find out you have lukemia a year from now, you are screwed, because there is no Santa Clause for 5 years after it passes the senate, and that is IF it is not ruled unconstitutional.
It is rather odd, you calling yourself a libertarian. I was under the impression libertarians were for less government and more personal responsibility?
Because American libertarians are not the same as other libertarians in the rest of the world
You protect the interests of the wealthy elite
as apposed to the working class as libertarianism was traditionally in support of.
Originally posted by Rockpuck
Working class as in? Poor? Rich? Middle Class? I have seen you over the boards many, many times and time and again you mix political ideologies with this mixed up soup of beliefs in your head.
Also Newt is NOT a Libertarian, he is a Republican .. which are often religious socialist.
Originally posted by Rockpuck
With the whole country seemingly abuzz with the latest news: Congress has officiall approved their version of the Health Care Reform bill; I find it a little concerning that the bill that was passed followed such a strict party line. We were basically given two options, overhauling or no reform at all .. no middle ground.
I my self, am a Libertarian, and as a Libertarian I see several major problems.
1. Anything run by the Government automatically fails.
2. The healthcare system in America is defunct and works against lower income families and individuals.
3. Mandatory health insurance goes against my God given right to not care about my health care (im being dead serious)
Outlaw Insurance. Lasic Eye Surgery is not covered by medical insurance, however it is one of the cheapest major operations you can have done. Why? Doctors compete with one another for customers. If it's to expensive, Dr. Joe down the street might do it $500 less, so Dr. John lowers his price to $100 bellow Dr. Joe's. I know what you're all thinking: But Rockpuck, that sounds like CAPITALISM!?!?
Take Insurance out of Capitalism and it runs smoothly. Doctor visits won't be outragiously expensive, simple things like blood tests and checkups would be Walmart cheap. If no one can afford the medical services, medical service won't exist.. so prices WILL lower.. it's a fact, Captialism proves it, just look at Lasic eye surgery!
Since I know this is impossible (to much money) .. If there HAS to be some form of major overhaul, the only services that should be 100% free is if you develop some serious disease. if someone comes down with cancer, or MS, or is put in a Coma, it's not their fault, and their lives shouldn't be ruined. I'd have no problem seeing the State pay for these individuals health care cost.. I DO have a problem with paying for lower income families simply because they are poor and have a ton of children. Why should we pay for them?
Two things are absolutely certain: One, Government should NEVER be an option .. by making Government the cheap alternative it will force people onto the program, within 10 years only the upper middle class and wealthy families will have decent private health care (like Canada and Britain)
By making insurance MANDATORY you are forcing a huge tax increase on the middle class, then forcing said taxed people to buy insurance.. many middle class families lost their health insurance in this economy, because it's way to expensive. Now they will be taxed (estimated 10% increase) and will have to then turn around and buy private health care. I can see it, a family being taxed into the ground, on the verge of loosing everything, and when they try to get government subsidized insurance they get denied because they make to much money.
The Government should be as little part of our lives as seemingly possible.. the more intrusion the more they will take from us. If we must have the government dictating our health care, it should only be for those who are ill beyond their own cause, the cancer patients, the chronically ill, the children.. but to make it universal, then make it mandatory opens the door for a flood gate of corruption, abuse and taxation.. there is a smart way of doing things, and a dumb way. This bill thus far is the most idiotic Ive seen yet.. I am truly afraid to see what this country will become in the next few years.. to demand such financial burdens on families in the middle of an economic depression is mind bogglingly stupid..
Nothing is free.. just remember that..
THE BETRAYAL OF ADAM SMITH
When Corporations Rule the World
by David C. Korten
WCRWII.gif (222731 bytes)It is ironic that corporate libertarians regularly pay homage to Adam Smith as their intellectual patron saint, since it is obvious to even the most casual reader of his epic work The Wealth of Nations that Smith would have vigorously opposed most of their claims and policy positions. For example, corporate libertarians fervently oppose any restraint on corporate size or power. Smith, on the other hand, opposed any form of economic concentration on the ground that it distorts the market's natural ability to establish a price that provides a fair return on land, labor, and capital; to produce a satisfactory outcome for both buyers and sellers; and to optimally allocate society's resources.
Through trade agreements, corporate libertarians press governments to provide absolute protection for the intellectual property rights of corporations. Smith was strongly opposed to trade secrets as contrary to market principles and would have vigorously opposed governments enforcing a person or corporation's claim to the right to monopolize a lifesaving drug or device and to charge whatever the market would bear.
Corporate libertarians maintain that the market turns unrestrained greed into socially optimal outcomes. Smith would be outraged by those who attribute this idea to him. He was talking about small farmers and artisans trying to get the best price for their products to provide for themselves and their families. That is self-interest, not greed. Greed is a high-paid corporate executive firing 10,000 employees and then rewarding himself with a multimillion-dollar bonus for having saved the company so much money. Greed is what the economic system being constructed by the corporate libertarians encourages and rewards. [See An Economic System Dangerously Out of Control .
Marx pointed out that capitalism was progressive because it represented an improvement in production. Marx hailed capitalism's triumph as a victory over feudalism.
Marx said that industrialization was a good thing and that it should be embraced, that instead of opposing the progress of industrialization the goal should be to end wage-labor, and that the new industrial systems should be converted to communal property, much like the lands had been communal property just some 50 or 100 years prior.
The "state of communism" is described by Marx and Engels as the condition in which "the State" no longer exists and people live and work together in harmony in a society based on equality where the fruits of labor are shared with all members of society and no one is exploited.
Furthermore this whole "working class" meaning nothing more than Marxist ideals whereby the workers own the means production" is the worst kind of intrusive governmental socialism.