House passes health care reform bill; Vote garners only one Republican, page 7
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reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:03 AM by kozmo
Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by admriker444


Try looking at the top of the constitution the first paragraph. What the government is to be about.

The rest of my RANT as you call it, is facetious. It's to show that there are a lot of Social programs out there that are quite beneficial to the Welfare of the republic.

We accept these costs cause we know that these socialist programs are in fact for the good of the nation. I hope that when you read the constitution you notice that the word Welfare is capitalized which means it's a noun. It also means that the framers of the Constitution put emphasis on this word. The citizens well being is a part of the Constitution. It was so important that the founding fathers decided to put it amongst the first paragraph of the Constitution.

Kinda makes it important.


You are disingenuous in the least and completely naive at worst! If this were truly the case then the government should not stop short of ensuring that every single American owns a home, has a middle-class income, a car etc... After all, that provides for their well-being, right!? Since setting the record straight and educating you on American history seems to have become my role in this thread, I will continue...

Let us first begin with this truly onerous notion that "Welfare" means what you think it does... From a scholarly Constitutional website...

Welfare
welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [
Welfare in today's context also means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance. This is not the meaning of the word as used in the Constitution.

So, what then does the "General Welfare" in the Constitution describe? The founding fathers intended that "General Welfare" be understood as the "Collective good" benefiting equally the states united. This means that the Federal Government would conduct itself in a way, limited by it's authority written into the Constitution, to ensure that those rights of individuals outlined in Article 1, Sections 8 and 9 and Article 3, Section 3 and throughout the Bill of Rights never be infringed or usurped - either by the States OR the Federal Government.

To such end, the founding fathers created the Bill of Rights which specifically enumerate those rights to which the persons of the states united would be entitled to receive from the Federal Government. They are as follows:

1st Amendment: Freedom of (or from) religion. Freedom of speech. Freedom to assemble. Freedom to petition the government.

2nd Amendment: Right to bear arms.

3rd Amendment: Freedom from quartering soldiers.

4th Amendment: Freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. Warrants must only be issued upon probable cause, and shall be specific.

5th Amendment: Criminal indictments must be by grand jury. Freedom from double jeopardy. Freedom from testifying against oneself. Right to face accusers. Right to due process. Right of just compensation for takings.

6th Amendment: Right to speedy trial. Right to impartial jury. Right to be informed of the charges upon which the accused is held. Right to face accusers. Right to produce witnesses for the accused. Right to legal counsel.

7th Amendment: Right to jury trial in civil cases. Facts found by a jury cannot be reexamined by another court.

8th Amendment: Freedom from excessive bail or fines. Freedom from cruel or unusual punishment.

9th Amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The preceeding are the RIGHTS GUARANTEED by the Federal Government to its citizens. Again, I challenge you to provide me with the statement that includes healthcare! The 9th Ammendment, on it's own, signifies that those rights not implied by the first 9 Ammendments to the Constitution, better known as The Bill of Rights, be retained by the people. Um, I believe providing your own damned healthcare would be included!

We can debate, ad nauseum, the benefits of these social programs. But what we cannot debate is the Constituional authority granted the Federal Government to create, implement, manage, mandate or apply by force any law not specifically granted to it by the Constitution. In other words, individuals could not be compelled by the Federal Government to participate in social welfare programs. Those were left specifically to the states, whose own Constitutions usually prohibited such infringement upon personal rights. As a result, churches and local community organizations typically provided social welfare programs for the members of its own community who were in need of such on a VOLUNTARY basis.

"When the power of the people to vote themselves money is realized, it will mark the end of the Republic!"

Honestly, again, your ideology is completely clouding your ability to make an objective analysis of the supreme law of the land. If you feel that you have a moral obligation to work to provide for the welfare of others, then that is your personal choice. You are welcome to volunteer, tithe your church, donate to charitable organizations etc... That being said, under no circumstances do you, or ANY OTHER ENTITY within theses States United, have the authority to demand the same of others.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:30 AM by Angiras
reply to post by AllexxisF1


Actually, the majority of the "regulatory" powers of the Federal Government come from the power granted to the Government by the Constitution to "regulate interstate commerce", which was liberally re-interpreted in the 1930s to allow for all the increased regulatory powers invoked by FDR and subsequent administrations and Congresses.

The clean air act, the water act, the food act, etc. all fall under that jurisdiction, as does the health care reform bill. There is the old saying: "given an inch and they will take a mile"...in this case they have taken millions of miles, and extend their powers far beyond that intended by the framers of the Constitution, who wanted the majority of these things to be governed locally, by the States, and not Federally, by the US Government.

The whole purpose of the Constitution was to severely LIMIT the powers of the Federal Government, which they felt posed the greatest potential future threat to the freedom of the people. Unfortunately, their worst fears have come to pass--and we are rapidly marching down the road to a form of collective totalitarianism, administered by an entrenched buracracy, and governed by a corporate oligarchy.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Angiras]



reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:33 AM by whatukno
reply to post by kozmo


Is it not for the collective good (I.E. The GDP) that every American have the ability and the obligation to work? That is the general Welfare that the framers of the constitution prescribed.

That naturally insists that the workforce of this great nation be healthy enough to work. Thus the entitlement to "life" is achieved.

Sorry to inform you but your tax dollars aren't supposed to only go for the defense of the nation but it's welfare too. Without able bodied citizens to do the work of the nation the nation does not exist. Each of us owe to our nation a debt. We owe this debt because of the freedoms that others fought for. Not everyone can repay that debt with their lives. Therefore their Welfare must be ensured.

The business of government is business and a part of that business is ensuring that the workforce be able to do the job. If they aren't because of oppressive singular corporate policy it is the job of the government to ensure the welfare of these citizens.

Without the citizenry there is no point in defending the republic.

The Public Option is demanded by our Constitution, because it promotes the general Welfare of the Republic. The healthier our citizens are the more they can produce. The more they can produce equates to more profit for the business owner. The more profit the business owner is able to garner equates to success for that individual thus ensuring the Capitalist system of life in the United States with the small demand that everyone have the equal opportunity to be healthy enough to achieve the right of Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.



[edit on 11/9/2009 by whatukno]


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:52 AM by justinsweatt
reply to post by AllexxisF1


Yes, all of that should be provided by your state. That is the beauty of our country and the fact that Adams helped helm what is the genius of State Constitutions.

No to the EPA, No to the US Dept of Education, No to Healthcare, No To Medicaid, No, No, No, No, No.

No.

That is what your state is for, not the federal government. The Fed was never meant to be as big as it is now. Ever.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 12:12 PM by Keyhole
Originally posted by tommy_boy
There's probably a more compelling argument for the American people wanting a big sweeping wave of reform.


Not really, ...

In U.S., 39% Say View on Healthcare “Depends” on Details
"By 58% to 38%, Americans would generally prefer to see Congress deal with healthcare reform 'on a gradual basis over several years' rather than 'try to pass a comprehensive reform plan this year.'"


The finding comes from a USA Today/Gallup poll conducted Oct. 16-19. In addition to the 39% of Americans still on the fence, 25% say they have already decided to support the final bill while a slightly larger number, 33%, say they will oppose it.


[edit on 11/9/2009 by Keyhole]


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 12:18 PM by kozmo
Originally posted by AllexxisF1
Originally posted by kozmo
You are disingenuous in the least and completely naive at worst! Blah, Blah blah...


Than according to your logic the Government has no right to have the E.P.A. ?

That the clean air and water landmark bills are unconstitutional?

They passed those bills for the common good but it sure as heck is not written in the Constitution that catalytic converters be installed on every car. Maybe because they had no cars when it was written, you know like insurance companies taking advantage of customers.

Are you suggesting the laws and protections that are placed on Wall Street for accounting and selling practices are unconstitutional as well?

They passed those for the common good as well.

So how do you come to the conclusion that putting laws and protections for consumers (the common good) on health insurance companies to be unconstitutional?

Because that is what this bill is. It forces the insurance companies to do what best for the common good if they want to run their business in our country.



[edit on 9-11-2009 by AllexxisF1]


Well, apparently you are not paying attention. Rather than repeat what others have already stated, learn about the interstate commerce clauses. Somehow you guys just find creative ways to grant powers to the federal government that simply don't exist. If you that excited about having a dictatorship, I understand that Venezuela is looking for more people. Let me know if you need a one-way ticket.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 12:29 PM by kozmo
Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by kozmo


Is it not for the collective good (I.E. The GDP) that every American have the ability and the obligation to work? That is the general Welfare that the framers of the constitution prescribed.

That naturally insists that the workforce of this great nation be healthy enough to work. Thus the entitlement to "life" is achieved.

Sorry to inform you but your tax dollars aren't supposed to only go for the defense of the nation but it's welfare too. Without able bodied citizens to do the work of the nation the nation does not exist. Each of us owe to our nation a debt. We owe this debt because of the freedoms that others fought for. Not everyone can repay that debt with their lives. Therefore their Welfare must be ensured.

The business of government is business and a part of that business is ensuring that the workforce be able to do the job. If they aren't because of oppressive singular corporate policy it is the job of the government to ensure the welfare of these citizens.

Without the citizenry there is no point in defending the republic.

The Public Option is demanded by our Constitution, because it promotes the general Welfare of the Republic. The healthier our citizens are the more they can produce. The more they can produce equates to more profit for the business owner. The more profit the business owner is able to garner equates to success for that individual thus ensuring the Capitalist system of life in the United States with the small demand that everyone have the equal opportunity to be healthy enough to achieve the right of Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.



[edit on 11/9/2009 by whatukno]


Well, my goodness. Never have I seen such a string of non-suiquiters generated by assumptions.

I have already proven, in exacting detail, the errors of your beliefs. I have already demonstrated the intent of the guarantee of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and the intentions framed by our founding fathers.

Our "tax dollars" are an issue for another thread entirely as "taxation" in and of itslef, directly violates the assumptions granted for liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I would, however, like to congratulate you on ignoring almost entirely the Constitutional obligations laid upon the Federal Government by limiting their power and authority and granting such authorities to either the states or the individuals respectively. I guess it's entirely up to you to grant the Federal Government authorities not explicity granted by the Constitution. There are, however, a rather large majority who still believe in the separation of powers and the spirit of our founding document - however vehemently you might disagree. Your disagreement though does not negate its obligations.



reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 02:37 PM by marg6043
reply to post by AllexxisF1


Sorry to bring this you, but the system of government in our great nation of the free is been corrupted by the same private agenda holders that had make our for the people elected politicians whores to their will.

If you have not noticed how our politics are infringing in the rights of the citizens in this nation, then I guess is no wonder why we the citizens in this nation have lost our people's power.

See the government is supposed to work for the people not the people been mandated to work for the government.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The Preamble explains the purposes of the Constitution, and defines the powers of the new government as originating from the people of the United States.


right now We the people has been substituted by We the lobbyist and corporate America, they are the ones dictating our bills and paying off our for the people politicians.










[edit on 9-11-2009 by marg6043]


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 03:23 PM by AllexxisF1
Originally posted by marg6043
Sorry to bring this you, but the system of government in our great nation of the free is been corrupted by the same private agenda holders that had make our for the people elected politicians whores to their will.


Yes many of our Representatives have fallen into the pockets of big business and their lobbyists.

But our power in voting them out in a free and Democratic election has not eroded one bit. Unless of course you vote on a Diebold machine.

If you do not like how you are being represented than its up to you to get up and elect those who are willing to listen. Plain and simple.

No matter how much people think THEY hold all the power the truth is it's just an illusion. We still have the power.

I am a staunch Progressive Democrat and we voted our guy in on what we believe to be the best way to run this country and we got him elected. Even in die hard red states we got him elected. We proved that.

I have many, many Republican and Libertarian friends and although we disagree they have the power to organize and find those willing to support their ideals.

If you don't like the Presidents roadmap than by all means organize and protest and work constructively to make your options heard.

The problem is with the Republican party of late they have no ideas. They have no solutions and instead have put all their effort in calling the President a terrorist Kenyan Marxist, Communist, Socialist who is out to kill Grand Ma.

At least the Libertarians have put forth some great ideas well grounded in solid fashion. They want the constructive debate, the Republicans (Neo Conservatives actually) don't.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 04:00 PM by Jovi1
Originally posted by AllexxisF1

Yes many of our Representatives have fallen into the pockets of big business and their lobbyists.

But our power in voting them out in a free and Democratic election has not eroded one bit. Unless of course you vote on a Diebold machine.

If you do not like how you are being represented than its up to you to get up and elect those who are willing to listen. Plain and simple.

No matter how much people think THEY hold all the power the truth is it's just an illusion. We still have the power.


Not so plain and simple really when you have two candidates who no matter the outcome owe their seat to the businesses that financed their campaign and their party not the actual people they are supposed to represent.



I am a staunch Progressive Democrat and we voted our guy in on what we believe to be the best way to run this country and we got him elected. Even in die hard red states we got him elected. We proved that.


You proved nothing, the only thing that was proven was that the citizens of this country have the attention span of a 4 year old and will believe whoever uses the word change the most convincingly. People did not vote for "your guy" because of anything you or your sad little party did, he was voted in because of a false belief it had to be better than what the other sad little party was doing.


If you don't like the Presidents roadmap than by all means organize and protest and work constructively to make your options heard.


Has no effect as the corporate interests already own his soul.


The problem is with the Republican party of late they have no ideas.
They have no solutions and instead have put all their effort in calling the President a terrorist Kenyan Marxist, Communist, Socialist who is out to kill Grand Ma.


They have plenty of ideas unfortunately they come from the same tired book of ideas. The really fun one to watch is the we will give you morals while taking away your personal wealth. Even more amusing is watching the same rural people buy into it time and time again.

The other side wants you to give up on your morals while they take your personal wealth.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 04:01 PM by marg6043
reply to post by AllexxisF1


Is a big problem, we don't have choices, we have two elite political parties that are no longer a representation of the people they represent the private interest that pays the highest donations.

We actually don't have choices in this nation anymore, you either vote for dumb or dumber and both are in the same groups.

Elections in America are nothing than a big holiday to make people think that they still have a vote and have a choice from within the established elites.



reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 08:24 PM by HunkaHunka
reply to post by marg6043



So far I'm being represented pretty well , but only on rare occasion.

I'm still one happy Obama supporter.

It's important to keep in mind, when you make arguments like that, that not everyone feels the way you do.


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 09:29 PM by marg6043
reply to post by HunkaHunka


I make arguments like this because I have been a voter since 1978 so I got some elections under my belt, still I support neither of the elite parties in this nations and their puppet chosen political leaders.


reply posted on 10-11-2009 @ 08:30 AM by kozmo
Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by marg6043

I'm still one happy Obama supporter.

It's important to keep in mind, when you make arguments like that, that not everyone feels the way you do.




Well, based on his plunging opinion polls - the fastest falling in the history of the US Presidency - I'd say that the vast and rapidly rising majority feel EXACTLY like we do! I'd also point out that obviously the majority of people of New Jersey and Virginia also feel like we do. By this time next year it will be obvious to even those of you who have your heads buried so deep in the sand. I find the Republican party nearly as repulsive as the Democrat party - yet they are on their way to securing an embarassing defeat of the Democrats in 2010.


reply posted on 10-11-2009 @ 09:28 AM by marg6043
reply to post by kozmo


Yes I have to agree, I voted for Obama because I actually had hopes, I wanted change and he promised that to us sadly he may have been full of hopes and change but the system of government we have had made him nothing more than another puppet to the powers behind our government, the true powers in this nation no longer reside with the people.

Congress will reverse back majority but still the problems will stay the same.


reply posted on 10-11-2009 @ 09:59 AM by whatukno
reply to post by kozmo


Now I can perfectly understand the conservative viewpoint that the government should deliver the mail and stay the hell out of our lives. But after the inception of the FED that ideology was forever lost.

You don't have to bother wasting your time "educating" me on anything. Because it's obvious to me that your idea of education is just a feeble attempt at right wing brainwashing instead of actual critical thinking.

It's also funny to me that you can take one poll and decide that is the be all end all of public opinion. A lot of people know that poll numbers are pretty much useless. Poll companies deliberately poll known areas that they know will give them the desired results.

But to go back onto the topic, Health care Reform in this country is just at the quarter point mark. It still has to pass the Senate, then that bill will have to pass both the House and the Senate together before Obama can sign it and in many here's opinion "Destroy the US and remove everyone's rights and doom us all to enslavement and death."

Of course do people that believe that this is the key piece of legislation that guarantees the complete destruction of the US as a nation bother to point out any actual facts? Nope. Can't be bothered to do that. But they do love the chicken little mentality that anything the government does ensures that the sky will fall and everyone will die.

It's getting pretty old y'all.

[edit on 11/10/2009 by whatukno]
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