Health Care- Now(Passed), page 21

Pages: << 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 32 times

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 05:10 AM by nenothtu

Wow! looks like your socialist government is forcing it's way into a growth industry! Maybe they can manage to make enough off of us to cover Obama's debts that are being racked up!

I mean, your figures are right there, so we KNOW for fact that amount of money is gonna change hands, right?

Originally posted by Janky Red
Now I have you to answer it, and don't cop out with a series of remarks.
You tell ME EXACTLY when Health Care Premiums will level out? Please do

Probably when inflation and/or government spending do.

...

Five decades

Year - 2059

+131% increase as is the trend

$986,612

So if this system runs the way it has been for the next fifty years a family of four will
be paying $989,612 for coverage

That is $247,403 per person per policy in fifty the year 2059.

$247,403 times a population of 350,000,000( provided population grows slowly )

='s

8.659105 × 10 (13)

This number is so high that the answer above was as good as google could do...

So I want you to show me where my math is wrong?

Give me some propaganda busting on my MATHEMATICS

OK, if I must, and you are incapable of finding the errors.

Specifically, your math is wrong in deducing firm figures as "factual" from estimated input. It's nothing more than a scare tactic, and not a very effective one.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that those figures are bogus. If no one can afford it, as is your suggestion, then no one will pay it, That being the case, the market won't bear it.

Those companies won't price themselves right out of a job.

Thanks for playing.

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 05:31 AM by Janky Red

Originally posted by nenothtu
Wow! looks like your socialist government is forcing it's way into a growth industry! Maybe they can manage to make enough off of us to cover Obama's debts that are being racked up!

I mean, your figures are right there, so we KNOW for fact that amount of money is gonna change hands, right?

Originally posted by Janky Red
Now I have you to answer it, and don't cop out with a series of remarks.
You tell ME EXACTLY when Health Care Premiums will level out? Please do

Probably when inflation and/or government spending do.

...

Five decades

Year - 2059

+131% increase as is the trend

$986,612

So if this system runs the way it has been for the next fifty years a family of four will
be paying $989,612 for coverage

That is $247,403 per person per policy in fifty the year 2059.

$247,403 times a population of 350,000,000( provided population grows slowly )

='s

(13)

This number is so high that the answer above was as good as google could do...

So I want you to show me where my math is wrong?

Give me some propaganda busting on my MATHEMATICS

OK, if I must, and you are incapable of finding the errors.

Specifically, your math is wrong in deducing firm figures as "factual" from estimated input. It's nothing more than a scare tactic, and not a very effective one.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that those figures are bogus. If no one can afford it, as is your suggestion, then no one will pay it, That being the case, the market won't bear it.

Those companies won't price themselves right out of a job.

Thanks for playing.

I simply did math and projected it into the future and you are ATTACKING mathematics?

Its sad day when you attack people for trying to illuminate something, using the basic components of logic, I showed you numbers and you treat them like magic tricks. Even if the projection is only ten percent accurate, or TRILLIONS OFF, the cost is incredible and outrageous.

If you were not intoxicated by the ideological opiate, you would not lash out like a
spoilt ape.

" number don't count if they are ugly "

... like it or not we are screwed anyway you slice it, keep your head in the sand.

Your ignorance towards the gravity of the situation compounds the problem we face

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Janky Red]

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Janky Red]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 06:00 AM by Ahabstar

I recognize that posturing on the increasing cost. It was one of the speakers in support of the bill that said by 2080 the amount spent on Health Care (given the current trend in rising costs) would equal the GDP of the US.

Scare tactics and statistical manipulation. Here is another to chew on, a person working minimum wage today at 30 hours per week takes home after taxes more than what the US GDP was in 1774.

That is an absolute fact, since there was no US in 1774.

I would ask that "representative" (in quotes because he definitely does not represent the American people) just how he figures that any company or organisation can survive if it prices its product out of what the market will accept. Unless of course the company runs to the government to subsidize its product.

And that is the basis of the bill. Not a solution to the problem for the public but a subsidy for the industry and a power grab for the government wrapped up in enough scare tactics that most any "activist" will be baffled by the BS enough to swallow it hook, line and sinker.

I wish I could show you the impact of all this in fifty years. But the reality is that the US, as we know it now, will not be here in fifty years. Right now, we are going to be lucky to make it another 15-17 months before a huge change will occur.

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 06:50 AM by Tyr Sog

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
reply to post by Janky Red

This country will be enslaved 100% by healthcare costs in less then a century

And Crickets...

"It's not me"

"That is total destruction of the US."

"It's not me"

you and many others should deal that into to your thinking pile.

Continue bashing so you do not have to hear what you actually think.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by Janky Red]

No it won't, it will correct itself through CHOICE. People can dump their providers completely or have the ability to shop around for new ones. If it just gets too expensive and people have to cancel their providers, that in itself will make it correct itself.

Create choice and opportunity with competition. Not mandatory government HC that is doomed to fail on so many levels. All the while stripping me of my individual rights.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Tyr Sog]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 07:07 AM by Angiras

Regardless of the cost, the Health Care Reform is destructive of freedom.

It effectively mandates vaccinations if you want to receive any health care, whatsoever. For example, you will have to have up to date vaccinations if you want to be treated by a doctor for a broken ankle.

See Article
"The Federal Government’s proposed mandatory health insurance will mean mandatory vaccinations/immunizations. The Center for Disease Control (CDC) says that for anyone who refuses to keep up-to-date vaccinations, under the new health reform, you will not be able to obtain any health care you may need until immunizations are current."

"It was also reported that the new health care reform bill was submitted with a provision that those doctors and hospitals who are not “meaningful users” of the new reform system will also be faced with fines and penalties. As well as the Secretary of Health and Human Services will be “permitted to impose more stringent measures of meaningful use over time.”

So those of you who are happy the health care reform bill passed, should start rolling up your sleeves....the needle is coming for you, whether you want it or not. Hope you are still happy.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Angiras]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 08:40 AM by conspiracyrus

This whole forced medicine thing is going to end up costing 10 times more than what insurance companies are charging. I don't care if every penny in the united states will be spent on healthcare in 71 years... because i can choose not to pay it. But with this bill, seeing as the income brackets for this healthcare bill wont be adjusted for inflation, every year you will have to pay more and more.

And when you are without job and home and food, thats when you can finally have truly free healthcare... Jank doesnt understand that givin the choice people wont pay those premiums... and insurance companies will have to lower their costs.. the way the free system checks itself... but when the government runs it ... You pay what they say no matter what.

and Janky, Your not using logic your using what someone told you to use... to scare people with... You didn't take into account that if healthcare costs took up the entire gdp that no money would be spent on anything else but healthcare.... so yeah you tell me how that is feasible were no one buys food or pays for utilities or buys houses or cars no businesses have money to pay employees.... Your living in an Ultra Liberal Fantasy land... It sounds alot to me like people would just not pay the insurance companies...

Incoming message from a parrot

"Yes Janky?"

[edit on 9-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:17 AM by novacs4me

reply to post by Angiras

I followed your link but did not see the text you inserted. When providing a link, use the 'globe' icon and insert the link as it suggests. I did go to the text of the House bill, and don't see anything about forced vaccinations. I'm not trying to be difficult here; I won't take 'required' vaccinations, and had to see for myself.

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:20 AM by illuminatislave

Originally posted by Angiras
Regardless of the cost, the Health Care Reform is destructive of freedom.

It effectively mandates vaccinations if you want to receive any health care, whatsoever. For example, you will have to have up to date vaccinations if you want to be treated by a doctor for a broken ankle.

www.youronlineinsurance.com...

"The Federal Government’s proposed mandatory health insurance will mean mandatory vaccinations/immunizations. The Center for Disease Control (CDC) says that for anyone who refuses to keep up-to-date vaccinations, under the new health reform, you will not be able to obtain any health care you may need until immunizations are current."

"It was also reported that the new health care reform bill was submitted with a provision that those doctors and hospitals who are not “meaningful users” of the new reform system will also be faced with fines and penalties. As well as the Secretary of Health and Human Services will be “permitted to impose more stringent measures of meaningful use over time.”

So those of you who are happy the health care reform bill passed, should start rolling up your sleeves....the needle is coming for you, whether you want it or not. Hope you are still happy.

This is disturbing, but I would like to see a link to verify this.

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:23 AM by diakrite

reply to post by wx4caster

i like democracy, i am not a fan of socialism. if europe is so great then why dont you have millions flocking to your country? what happened to the euro? the EU? you have your own problems. we have ours.

Ehrmm..as a matter of fact, I can answer all of those questions:
(1) Actually, we have "millions flocking". We can hardly stem the influx of legal&illegal immigrants from, mostly ,northern Africa and from the former eastern block. So, fortune-seekers aplenty.

(2)It's about 1,5 times more worth than a USDollar,and rising.

(3) The EU is about to become a rather powerfull entity, with most European banks already having a shockingly large stake in the American economy.(ING ,anyone?)

It almost cost their necks, but because of the inherent frugality of European banks, the crisis wasn't as devastating in the EU as it was for America.(And no, there was no "Scadenfreude" when TSHTF in America.

Far from it, Europeans in general felt really bad for the Americans when the giant-ponzi-scheme called "Sub-Prime mortgages" had a reality-check and imploded, taking The American people, the house owners, car-industry etc. with them. We "socio-commie" and whatnot Europeans have this strange, frightening affliction called "empathy" I hope it is really contagious though, so fairness and understanding will reign at last.

Yes, we are idealists ,Socialism commie-liberal-marxist(I am running out of adjectives for us deplorable Europeans here) scary FreeThinkers.

Oh, and by the by: EUROPE IS NOT A COUNTRY!!!!!!! When will You Americans even TRY to understand the federation-like , connected economies of Europe? We're still individual countries, waay more individual than your "states" could even dream of.

To boot:great Britain is not Europe. They did their utter best to keep " Europe" out of their country, with the sad result that the once "hard" Pound Sterling was reduced to a shadow of it's former self.

I see too much referring to GB if socialized healthcare comes in the discussion. Their NHS is not like the systems on our side of the channel. We DO have single-payer ,however, everyone is free to choose the insurer he/she likes for additional "perks".
It is a bit too complex too go at it indepth, but be asured that it works bloody well in providing fair&affordable healthcare for everyone(even dentistry is included, a luxury that even Canada does not have) without huge waiting lists(those legendary "waiting lists" being the biggest bucket 'o'crap the anti-healthcare lobby has tried to force feed the populace), especially for life-threatening afflictions..

We have our problems, but they pale in comparison to the ones America faces at the moment, being morally bankrupt in the highest echelons of finance and governance.

Take a look at the sudden resurgance of bonuses on Wallstreet and in banks. And take a good, hard look at the smug faces of the bank bosses, when they defend said bonuses!

People that try to "divide&conquer" over the heads of ordinary, hard-working Joes. Mis-information being the tool of choice.. (Oh, and why is the spending of a couple of billion on overly-complex planes to kill people in a far-away country possible ,but 1 or 2 billion for affordable healthcare a total impossibility?...

)

edited for clarity

[edit on 11/9/2009 by diakrite]

[edit on 11/9/2009 by diakrite]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:38 AM by illuminatislave

www.tikkun.org...

Kucinich: Why I Voted NO

Washington, Nov 7 -
After voting against H.R. 3962 - Affordable Health Care for America Act, Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) today made the following statement:

“We have been led to believe that we must make our health care choices only within the current structure of a predatory, for-profit insurance system which makes money not providing health care. We cannot fault the insurance companies for being what they are. But we can fault legislation in which the government incentivizes the perpetuation, indeed the strengthening, of the for-profit health insurance industry, the very source of the problem. When health insurance companies deny care or raise premiums, co-pays and deductibles they are simply trying to make a profit. That is our system.

“Clearly, the insurance companies are the problem, not the solution. They are driving up the cost of health care. Because their massive bureaucracy avoids paying bills so effectively, they force hospitals and doctors to hire their own bureaucracy to fight the insurance companies to avoid getting stuck with an unfair share of the bills. The result is that since 1970, the number of physicians has increased by less than 200% while the number of administrators has increased by 3000%. It is no wonder that 31 cents of every health care dollar goes to administrative costs, not toward providing care. Even those with insurance are at risk. The single biggest cause of bankruptcies in the U.S. is health insurance policies that do not cover you when you get sick.

“But instead of working toward the elimination of for-profit insurance, H.R. 3962 would put the government in the role of accelerating the privatization of health care. In H.R. 3962, the government is requiring at least 21 million Americans to buy private health insurance from the very industry that causes costs to be so high, which will result in at least $70 billion in new annual revenue, much of which is coming from taxpayers. This inevitably will lead to even more costs, more subsidies, and higher profits for insurance companies — a bailout under a blue cross.

The rest is at the link. It's a shame now that I am actually hoping for the republicans and lieberman to stall everything on this bill

I refuse to be forced by the government to allow my pockets to be drained by the parasites of the insurance industries. This is an absolute disgrace

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 11:50 AM by Angiras

reply to post by illuminatislave

The Link to the article in my original post has been repaired.

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 02:17 PM by Janky Red

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
and Janky, Your not using logic your using what someone told you to use... to scare people with... You didn't take into account that if healthcare costs took up the entire gdp that no money would be spent on anything else but healthcare.... so yeah you tell me how that is feasible were no one buys food or pays for utilities or buys houses or cars no businesses have money to pay employees.... Your living in an Ultra Liberal Fantasy land... It sounds alot to me like people would just not pay the insurance companies...

Incoming message from a parrot

"Yes Janky?"

[edit on 9-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]

Someone told me to use???

Come on now - I REPEAT - I did math that is all... I also repeat I AM NOT 100% SOLD ON THIS BILL!!!

You guys are bombing on me for doing WHAT AN ACCOUNTANT DOES.

I am fairly sure you guys are somewhat right, these numbers are to high to be real.

Well let us say they are 90% inflated on my behalf because I do not see into the future.

heres what the equation says

8.659105 × 10 (13)

Now any of you take 90% off of it -

DO the MATH if you don't believe it, the number is still INSANE

The point is WHEN is this going to reverse? NOT one of you knows do you?
So in fact you guys are so offended by this you deny its existence because it is so offensive.

Today, the average cost of a family health insurance offered by an employer.....
That's up 131% over the last decade—a period in which inflation rose only 28%. And one estimate says that if costs continue on their current trajectory, premiums will go up another 166% in the decade ahead.
The data was collected by the Kaiser Family Foundation

Read more: money.blogs.time.com...

SO according to this DATA - Brought to us by the Kaiser Foundation none the less,
We see that premiums have risen 131% in the last decade.

So lets do some simple math here -

One decade from now the current rate of $15,000 a year to cover a family of four

Year - 2019

+ 131% increase as is the trend

= $34,650

Two decades

Year - 2029

+131% increase as is the trend

= $80,041

Three decades

Year - 2039

+131% increase as is the trend

= $184,894

Four decades

Year - 2049

+131% increase as is the trend

$427,105

Five decades

Year - 2059

+131% increase as is the trend

$986,612

So if this system runs the way it has been for the next fifty years a family of four will
be paying $989,612 for coverage

That is $247,403 per person per policy in fifty the year 2059.

$247,403 times a population of 350,000,000( provided population grows slowly )

='s

8.659105 × 10 (13)

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 02:24 PM by conspiracyrus

reply to post by Janky Red

and as we said before the more it costs the less people will use it meaning less profit for insurance companies which also means they will have to lower prices to stay in business meaning the trend wont continue ... JankyRed Hero of Selective reading

[edit on 9-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 02:30 PM by Janky Red

Originally posted by Tyr Sog

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
reply to post by Janky Red

.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by Janky Red]

If it just gets too expensive and people have to cancel their providers, that in itself will make it correct itself.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Tyr Sog]

Fair enough - so WHEN does it correct it self???

in ten years??? 2019

$34,650

in twenty years??? 2029

$80,041

In thirty years???

$184,894

Fifty years?

8.659105 × 10 (13)

you guys all assume it is going to level out, so how long?

The trend is 131% in the last ten years, slated to increase 160%+ shortly...

Its in complete overdrive, the irony is the numbers are so outrageous you guys
are attacking me for posting them.

even though I am NOT the numbers
and I did not invent MATHEMATICS.

You think about it, if inflation stops, when and who will stop it.

Ten years means a lot in this case

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 02:35 PM by conspiracyrus

reply to post by Janky Red

You do also realize that they didnt include inflation in that number ... they said the cost grew greater than inflation but make no mention of the statistics being put against each other....

Number 2 It could happen tomorrow... when people stop being able to afford it then they dont buy it ... so as the price gets more rediculous the amount of members of a policy decreases... meaning every dollar that it increases you will always see a decrease in policy holders. and as policy holders decrease the more they charge, see a cycle there? you should

not to mention with the decreased earnings potential of people during a time of recession... as well as those who are unemployed... were talking quite a bit of decrease

simple as that

[edit on 9-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]

[edit on 9-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 02:42 PM by Janky Red

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
reply to post by Janky Red

and as we said before the more it costs the less people will use it meaning less profit for insurance companies which also means they will have to lower prices to stay in business meaning the trend wont continue ... JankyRed Hero of Selective reading

[edit on 9-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]

Projection is fun - you are selecting to stick your head in the sand.

How do you know people will not be accustom to paying 50% of their income in 20 years? I remind you the cost of cigarettes have gone up 200%+ in ten years and people still smoke, which is not beneficial to health.

So if people continued to pay an increased rate of 131% in the last ten years PER KAISERS INFO.

What makes you think they will not do the same in this coming decade?

And at what POINT will you guys say "these prices are usery"!?

Haven't said anything yet, clock is ticking

When???

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 02:43 PM by conspiracyrus

reply to post by Janky Red

i refer you to my above post? and you say im projecting on you....

[edit on 9-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 02:59 PM by Janky Red

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
reply to post by Janky Red

You do also realize that they didnt include inflation in that number ... they said the cost grew greater than inflation but make no mention of the statistics being put against each other....

Yes no inflation does that not make the numbers worse.
The statistics being put against each other? IT'S NOT MAGIC
I continued on the same COURSE inflation is happening NOW.
131% increase in ten years - 131% increase in twenty years

THE SAME equation I used-

If you make ten dollars and hour and can expect an 8% raise each year

first year $10.80

second year $11.88

third year $12.83

NOT MAGIC

Number 2 It could happen tomorrow... when people stop being able to afford it then they dont buy it ... so as the price gets more rediculous the amount of members of a policy decreases... meaning every dollar that it increases you will always see a decrease in policy holders. and as policy holders decrease the more they charge, see a cycle there? you should

I can't read that and it is not my fault, try re writing

not to mention with the decreased earnings potential of people during a time of recession... as well as those who are unemployed... were talking quite a bit of decrease

YOU would think, who is guaranteeing decrease?
If you read the article You would see number are set to INCREASE to 160+%

Which is the opposite RESULT of what you predict above

so...

[edit on 9-11-2009 by Janky Red]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 03:11 PM by conspiracyrus

reply to post by Janky Red

I hope you realize what you just said if they didnt account for inflation in there 131 pct increase , that didnt mean that inflation didnt occur it simply means they didnt count it in their figure... secondly are you saying that as prices get higher people who cant afford the rates will still purchase that insurance? and thirdly who says that the trend will continue ... you are ... your source made no mention of the trend continuing on in the future... the only person saying that is you... and without proof might I add.

It just goes to show you ... some people however many times they do the "math" end up leaving things out like diminishing power of the dollar... or in your case Jank you try and continue a 10 year trend and predict the future...

Tell Ms. Cleo i said whatsup

[edit on 9-11-2009 by conspiracyrus]

reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 03:30 PM by Eurisko2012

Originally posted by littlebunny
reply to post by Detailed Perfection

How funny... As soon as I saw that picture of your posted youtube... "Its only a Bill" started playing in my head... very funny indeed! Great addition to this thread no doubt... And yes those old commercials really need to come back!

--Charles Marcello

Why can't we just pay attention in Civics class?
Jay Leno used to interview people walking down Melrose Street
in LA. Totally clueless about our government.