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Health Care- Now(Passed)

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posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 02:56 AM
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Originally posted by Copernicus
reply to post by Philalethes
 


Im posting like crazy in this thread, but I need answers....

How is a country supposed to provide health care for everybody without using taxes? It doesnt seem possible. People without money will not have health care unless the government takes care of it. Unless Im missing something?


That is actually one of the fundamental problems with the HC bill is that the Gov't isn't suppost to be providing HC. It's not in the constitution anywhere. If anything the States maybe (refer to Mass. and their failed HC)




And how does this limit your freedom? I mean, Ive seen hundreds of laws passed in the name of fighting terrorism that totally rips your freedoms to shreds. There is nothing left. This law doesnt seem to make a big difference to me?


Do you smoke, drink, own a gun, over weight, ect...I'm sure they'll allow you to destroy your gov't owned body.

Phil




posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 02:57 AM
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No room for all of the prisoners huh? How about you just sit right where you are prisoner.
You don't have to be physically removed from your property and put into a facility to be a prisoner.
As I see it, were already half way there so protesting by not paying or not working to overfill the jails does no good.

The camps being set up all over the country will probably be for the compliant people because there will be less of them. You do as your told and we will let you in. lol
The not so funny thing is, it's a win win for them because everyone will be controlled one way or another.

On the subject of this bill breaking the constitutional laws, so tell me, when has that ever stopped them in the past? Our constitutional rights have been trampled on for many years now.

Our representatives are not representing us. We do not have a say anymore in our future. Our only hope, short of our military doing what needs to be done, is our individual states growing a pair and standing up against this.

We need to start by sending a loud and clear message to our representatives that they should start getting that resume' updated because they will need it next year.
Whoever we decide to vote in needs to understand the same and start voting for us, not against us or they will be next to find a new job.
We need to not permit voting on legislation that has not been fully read and understood 100% by both sides and if a last minute addition of 800 pages shows up, that they must start the process all over again.....from scratch and not get paid.

Most of us commoners have to be accountable for our actions in our jobs and so should our representatives. A town hall style meeting should be held after every session for our representative to explain why they voted the way they did on bills and a vote, by the people, to keep them or just hit the reset button to put someone in who will vote in our interests takes place.

Sounds pretty simple to me, but I know it will never happen....



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:00 AM
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This is my first post. I am so irate over the health care vote, that I had to join and leave my opinion.

Why why why is it that each party almost unanimously voted with their side? That means that one of the groups is wrong on the way they voted. Regardless of which way they voted (even though this health care bill is a crock) Over 200 congressmen(women) are in the wrong overall! Star this post if you believe we should get rid of the two party system.(because it obviously does not work). Congress people should vote on what they believe, not what their party they are associated wants.



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by KarlG
.................
No I'm not Karl Marx, I'm really Fidel Castro pretending to be Asian-American. And as for you, young lady, better watch those daughters of yours. You never know if hockey's the only sport they love.


Wow, lots of assumptions in your part.

First of all, I am a man, and I have a lot more experience than Palin on Socialized healthcare among othe things, but I am not rich.

Second of all my sons and daughters will probably do better in life than yours with the fairy tales you obviously believe in, which you will try to pass along to your children.


Third of all, it has been obvious for some time that you haven't informed yourself as to what the Obama administration has been passing as law, and the things they still want to pass, and among those the Obama healthcare reform, which is NOT going to be good for Americans....

Fourth of all, I still think you must be Karl Marx.



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:02 AM
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reply to post by KarlG
 


Yea, needs more detail. I am a contractor. I employ nobody. Since my agency does not offer any decent heal plan, I bear the entire cost myself. I am sure many other contractors are in the same boat. Perhaps, after studying the new rules , the agency may have to provide alot more than it does now.



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:12 AM
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Trust me, you make me sick too.

Your so-called freedom is to be selfish, to be full of ill-will, to be violently stuck to your ways of "everyone live for himself, and care not for others".

To me, I see no statement. I see the passing of a law that allows me NOT to be selfish anymore. To watch as people around the country who have problems HAVE their problems ALLEVIATED.

The government is not telling you WHAT to buy, it's just telling you to buy insurance. And if you can't, you get federal subsidies to help you get it.

Insurance is NOT a bad thing, especially when I can pay for it at long last.

Why? Because healthcare is a merit good. Economically, healthcare is a social good that works for the benefit of the general society.

You want to buy insurance from Company A, B, C or the government? Take your pick.

You want to have meatloaf, burgers, General Tso's chicken, or pad thai for dinner? Take your pick.

When it comes to issues like healthcare, I'd rather HAVE it, and be able to PAY for it, than not have it, and flounder like a fish when I've got a massive injury or illness, and be mad at my government for letting me be "free".

Like I said before, wait until one day, something massively devastating hits you or your family. I'm not cursing you, please don't be mistaken, but you won't know how important this law is until you experience the consequences of not having it.

Right now you're not seeing the TANGIBLE good it can do, but only the damage to your values and detriments to your beliefs, blah blah...

[edit on 8-11-2009 by KarlG]


yeah, i am selfish. 9 years serving the country, 26 months deployed away from my family and friends. i agree that if people genuinely need help because they are physically incapable of providing for themselves, then we help them.

but if you are satisfied with working a mundane job with no insurance and minimum pay, while you save no money, then you deserve to reap what you sow. why the hell should i go to school and work long hours making hard earned cash just to put it back into the system so that you can afford health care?

you dont make enough? go make more. you cant find a job? go to school, there are already tons of government programs available to get you into school. get a better job. work harder. play less.

these are the basic principals of life.

and dont set around and cry poor me because someone makes millions of dollars. just because they make more does not mean they should pay a higher percentage to the government. it is thier money they earned it the same way you did. just because you make have a physical labor job and they dont does not mean that you deserve a break. if you dont like it, go do what they do and then you can be a millionaire.

we need health care reform to get all these lazy low life blood suckers off the teat of the american "good will". they pop out babies to get more benifits but the benifits dont go to thier babies.

i have a job that has insurance. at no cost. yet i am going to have to pay more to the government, and i recieve no more benifits. you get my money.

stop charging credit cards that you cant afford to pay back. stop buying houses that you cant afford to pay off. stop taking vacations and buying cars and buying boats if you cant afford them, just because you want to have some fun. live within your means and save up your money. invest. work 2 jobs if you have to.

i should NOT be taxed just so that you dont have to work to live.

you are a leach on society.
you are not worthy of help if you dont want to help yourself.
and if you do have a disability that warants help, then i will stand next to you all the way.

our children and thier children will be paying for this massive mistake. you call ME selfish? YOU are selfish for forcing your children to have tro afford YOUR mistakes and shortcomings in life. Be a man/woman and take responsibilities for your actions or inactions



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:13 AM
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Originally posted by wisconsincitizen
This is my first post. I am so irate over the health care vote, that I had to join and leave my opinion.

Why why why is it that each party almost unanimously voted with their side? That means that one of the groups is wrong on the way they voted. Regardless of which way they voted (even though this health care bill is a crock) Over 200 congressmen(women) are in the wrong overall! Star this post if you believe we should get rid of the two party system.(because it obviously does not work). Congress people should vote on what they believe, not what their party they are associated wants.



It's just a game.

It's just people talking back and forth...


I agree.....



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:16 AM
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"Healthcare" my unhealthy white @$$. This is going to turn into be United American Deathcare. I don't care if you call it socialist, if you call it democratic or if you call it plain evil. Either way you look at it, it's going to change American for the WORSE and we all damn well know it.

I say Americans march to washington, no violence and NO weapons. We kick the down the door of every single politician, zap strap all of them and put them in holding cells. Do a background check on all of them, research all financial dealings, throw the crooked fear mongering psychopathic corporate JERKS into dark solitary confiment cells with tarantulas as room mates. They can eat bread and smoke cheap cigarettes. While they're away at the "Politician Resort" we'll rebuild society the way it's supposed to be. Once it's rebuilt, we'll let them out. We'll give them "freedom". We'll let them live in a village outside of our peaceful, beautiful, self sustaining type 1 civilization. This village will be a miniature police state filled with cameras, poor health care, poverty, forced vaccinations, fluoride filled water, high taxes, nothing but customer service and convenience store clerks as work and to top it all off.. mean cops. They will have to live there, as we once lived. For, I'd say, 3-5 years. Once that is over, we will offer them true freedom, we will let them live in our society. We will tell them that if we EVER find out that they are up to no good they will be exiled from civilization permanently, and spend the rest of their days in a loin cloth, hunting for insects and pooping on trees. I guarantee they'd behave.

This doesn't seem that hard does it? i mean really, even if only 2-3 million people march through Washington, we're good as gold! And I DARE the secret service/military/whatever to shoot at a horde of angry (but peaceful) American citizens. I DARE them.

We cannot be AFRAID. There is no point in being afraid. It gets you NOWHERE. You have to be willing to possibly give up your life so your children and your grandchildren and their children and their children will live unsuppressed and free. No more 60 hour work weeks, no more corporate giants stuffing advertising down our neck at every corner, no more dirty politicians getting rich off of the poor, no more war, no more chemicals in things where their shouldn't be, No more technological suppression from oil and hydro companies, free energy, self sustainable cities and above all, world EFFING peace!#!%$@%^@#$%

[edit on 8-11-2009 by jar11]

[edit on 8-11-2009 by jar11]



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by Copernicus

Originally posted by KarlG
Okay, I'm American, so let's not bash my own country too much.


Im not against America in any way, but you have things like Statue of Liberty and speak about freedoms and such, which is awesome, but when it comes down to showing whats behind the surface, the country doesnt take care of all its people. Im not bashing the country, but the governments so far has not done much for its people so im bashing them.


Its a country where they say everybody can succeed, but only 1% of the people really does. Succeeding is equal to getting rich. Its the very definition. While in other countries, succeeding may be more about living a good life with your family without being super rich. I think money is more worshiped in America than anywhere else.


[edit on 8-11-2009 by Copernicus]


yeah i have seen europe.

success is not getting rich. freedom is not providing for the lazy and unaccomplished. we have basic rights, but we also have basic responsibilities.

success is providing for your OWN family and living a PRODUCTIVE life. not making millions. it is being good and honest and fruitful.

freedom is being able to say and think without oppression. it is having the choice of your life path and life decisions. yes in the name of war on terror we have lost many freedoms. but now our government is telling us we HAVE to be vaccinated. we HAVE to have health insurance. we HAVE to this, we HAVE to that. this is not now america is supposed to be. we the people are supposed to tell our government what THEY have to do!

for gods sakes these idiots just made a life changing vote on a bill that most of them have not read! 2000 pages and even obama hisself dont know what is in the damn thing!!! that is not responsible government! that is NOT taking care of the people!



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:26 AM
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Originally posted by Copernicus
reply to post by Philalethes
 


Im posting like crazy in this thread, but I need answers....

How is a country supposed to provide health care for everybody without using taxes? It doesnt seem possible. People without money will not have health care unless the government takes care of it. Unless Im missing something?

And how does this limit your freedom? I mean, Ive seen hundreds of laws passed in the name of fighting terrorism that totally rips your freedoms to shreds. There is nothing left. This law doesnt seem to make a big difference to me?


It limits our freedom because they are FORCING us to buy insurance. In your country, you just get taxed. We will be both taxed AND have to buy an insurance plan. If we fail to buy the insurance plan, we get fined. If we fail to pay the fine, we go to PRISON. Do you go to prison over healthcare there?

The thing is, people here without money are usually "entitlement" people. They want everything handed to them so they do not have to fend for themselves. They pay 0 taxes. They do nothing to help the collective "each other", but keep spouting it because it's what they have heard.

These are not people that want to work, these are people who think they do not HAVE to work. You work, you pay taxes, it all works out coolio.

Then we have illegal immigrants who steal jobs away from the people who do want them, because employers can pay them under the table. They pay 0 taxes, the company gets 2 or 3 times the employees at half the cost, and the people who live here legally and WANT the work can't find it. The companies make more money because they do not have to pay unemployment insurance on the illegal employees, and so their profit margins is even higher!

Then, when the illegals get hurt or sick, they go to the Emergency Rooms and lie about their names, and the huge bills again get foisted back to the tax payers. This leaves us a huge section of the population that we pay and pay and pay for the contributes NOTHING to society, while at the same time, robbing the citizens of their place in this country, further driving the unemployment rates higher, and further driving the debt of this country higher while destroying peoples' morale.

Then! The illegals, in some cities now, if they get pulled over and do not have a drivers license? The municipalities do not even give them a ticket, because they lie about their names, and they are impossible to track down to arrest or to make them pay the fines.

If an illegal causes an accident, chances are, he will walk. Some cities are now even refusing to impound their vehicles because they feel it takes an already poor person and places them in deeper jeopardy, so now they have a free ride to kill people in drunken driven accidents and not have to have auto insurance. Who exactly, are the victims here?

I can tell you that we will be taxed to death, to pay for all of these entitlement people, for what? It isn't about selfishness, it is about what is right and wrong. The more things like this continue to get passed, the more people will give up and say "Well, Bob doesn't have to work. He has 4 kids and one on the way, and he has a free house, free food, and now free healthcare. I think I will now become like Bob, because this feels futile to me. Wonder if that place up the street will pay me under the table too? I need some beer."

That's what is so wrong about this.



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:26 AM
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Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
I hope the "Liberals/Progressives/Democrats" enjoy their "Socialized Medicine" which they claimed will never be Socialized, and we would never be forced to do anything...

The goal of Socialism has ALWAYS been about taking the free will, and free choice of people, and turning EVERYONE into mindless robot slaves.




You show your ignorance of simple matters...



Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended.


Hardly mindless robot slaves... efficient? A good idea? What we should do? All subjective questions... but mindless robot slaves? Objectively no.



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:29 AM
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Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
I hope the "Liberals/Progressives/Democrats" enjoy their "Socialized Medicine" which they claimed will never be Socialized, and we would never be forced to do anything...

The goal of Socialism has ALWAYS been about taking the free will, and free choice of people, and turning EVERYONE into mindless robot slaves.




You show your ignorance of simple matters...



Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended.


Hardly mindless robot slaves... efficient? A good idea? What we should do? All subjective questions... but mindless robot slaves? Objectively no.


So there you have it ladies and gentleman. The beginning of "So? What's wrong with socialism?"

Mark this day on your calendars.

edit for spelling

[edit on 8-11-2009 by Libertygal]



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:31 AM
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America should use the system we use here in The Netherlands. Free health care if you cant pay it. Its totally wierd if you dont have a insurance, you get no help.



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:32 AM
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Originally posted by wx4caster
yeah, i am selfish. 9 years serving the country, 26 months deployed away from my family and friends. i agree that if people genuinely need help because they are physically incapable of providing for themselves, then we help them.

but if you are satisfied with working a mundane job with no insurance and minimum pay, while you save no money, then you deserve to reap what you sow. why the hell should i go to school and work long hours making hard earned cash just to put it back into the system so that you can afford health care?

you dont make enough? go make more. you cant find a job? go to school, there are already tons of government programs available to get you into school. get a better job. work harder. play less.

these are the basic principals of life.


No, those are the basic principals of American society today. Not life. Life is something completely different.

Where I live, the minimum wage is something you can live on. You dont need to take several jobs just so you can pay your bills. Everybody are free to study at any university if they get good enough grades, and if they dont, there are schools where they can redo the classes they failed and get better grades. All this is free of charge (except paying for the books).

So you see that is a society where everyone CAN make it in reality, and not just theory like in the USA. If you get born into poverty in the USA, its almost impossible to make it (but a few do, I know, and you use those as examples despite them being more like lotto winners).

The downside is that almost nobody is extremely rich over here since people who make a lot of money do pay more taxes. But you dont have anyone being really poor either. So you see, people are pretty much equals here. We dont have gated communities with guards to distance ourselves from the poor people like you do.

So, being inside this system, I like it. Its a better moral system that includes all people. Your government are crooks because they live in the system you enjoy. They step on people and get rich and powerful. How come this is wrong in a country where the system encourages it? You cant blame them for "succeeding".


[edit on 8-11-2009 by Copernicus]



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:32 AM
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reply to post by HunkaHunka
 



Wow the Democrats/Progressive/Socialist/Communists have been working really hard to hide the truth..


S: (n) socialism (a political theory advocating state ownership of industry)
S: (n) socialism, socialist economy (an economic system based on state ownership of capital)

wordnetweb.princeton.edu...

BTW, you shouldn't be the one to talk about being "ignorant of simple matters"....



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:34 AM
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Originally posted by Libertygal
So there you have it ladies and gentleman. The beginning of "So? What's wrong with socialism?"

Mark this day on your calendars.

edit for spelling

[edit on 8-11-2009 by Libertygal]


And they were claiming at first they didn't want Socialism...

Day by day they flip flop and we find what they trully are after....



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:36 AM
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Originally posted by Copernicus


No, those are the basic principals of American society today. Not life. Life is something completely different.

Where I live, the minimum wage is something you can live on. You dont need to take several jobs just so you can pay your bills. Everybody are free to study at any university if they get good enough grades, and if they dont, there are schools where they can redo the classes they failed and get better grades. All this is free of charge (except paying for the books).

So you see that is a society where everyone CAN make it in reality, and not just theory like in the USA. If you get born into poverty in the USA, its almost impossible to make it (but a few do, I know, and you use those as examples despite them being more like lotto winners).

The downside is that almost nobody is extremely rich over here since people who make a lot of money do pay more taxes. But you dont have anyone being really poor either. So you see, people are pretty much equals here. We dont have gated communities with guards to distance ourselves from the poor people like you do.

So, being inside this system, I like it. Its a better moral system that includes all people.


i like democracy, i am not a fan of socialism. if europe is so great then why dont you have millions flocking to your country? what happened to the euro? the EU? you have your own problems. we have ours.



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:36 AM
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Originally posted by KarlG


Once you're in another country, you'll realize what an amazing place America is. Right now you're debating over whether or not you SHOULD have government-run healthcare when the government in question is noticeably one of the best in the world and one of the least corrupt?


[edit on 8-11-2009 by KarlG]


LOL!!! Are you serious? This government and it's appendages/bureaucracy are THE MOST CORRUPT ON EARTH along with every single other government out there. Don't run your pap and drivel to this crowd, we can see right through it.



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by wx4caster

Originally posted by Copernicus


No, those are the basic principals of American society today. Not life. Life is something completely different.

Where I live, the minimum wage is something you can live on. You dont need to take several jobs just so you can pay your bills. Everybody are free to study at any university if they get good enough grades, and if they dont, there are schools where they can redo the classes they failed and get better grades. All this is free of charge (except paying for the books).

So you see that is a society where everyone CAN make it in reality, and not just theory like in the USA. If you get born into poverty in the USA, its almost impossible to make it (but a few do, I know, and you use those as examples despite them being more like lotto winners).

The downside is that almost nobody is extremely rich over here since people who make a lot of money do pay more taxes. But you dont have anyone being really poor either. So you see, people are pretty much equals here. We dont have gated communities with guards to distance ourselves from the poor people like you do.

So, being inside this system, I like it. Its a better moral system that includes all people.


i like democracy, i am not a fan of socialism. if europe is so great then why dont you have millions flocking to your country? what happened to the euro? the EU? you have your own problems. we have ours.


Don't be a fan of democracy. Be a fan of a representative republic. That is what we need to go back to. Right now we are not....we are far from it.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by PenandSword]



posted on Nov, 8 2009 @ 03:40 AM
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Originally posted by wx4caster
for gods sakes these idiots just made a life changing vote on a bill that most of them have not read! 2000 pages and even obama hisself dont know what is in the damn thing!!! that is not responsible government! that is NOT taking care of the people!


No but its taking care of themselves which is what the American system is all about. You just said it yourself. Why should these guys care about the people when they get nothing from them but careers and money from the corporations?



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