Christian lifestyle and decisions: debate I had, care to join in?, page 1

privacy

Pages: << 1 2 >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 4 times

Topic started on 7-11-2009 @ 12:59 PM by nixie_nox

I believe that when you belong to a religion, any religion, it is a way of life that affects every decision of every category you make. There are not compartments or areas of life that are immune and seperate. Either you follow the beliefs of your deity or you don't.

So I have a very rich aunt. Who maid millions off a company she and her husband started. They are Christian born agains.

They have been subject to new regulations and the recession just like everyone else and had to of laid off a lot of people. Many including the people they have gone to church with and family members.

So my father is telling me how they just bought a 3500 dollar chandalier. I asked how is it they are buying a 3500 chandilier for their house if they are laying people off? He said for one, they can write part of it off on taxes, and his arguement is that it is their money, they can do what they want.

Mind you, these people also take several vacations a year and write it off as business trips. They work the tax code a little.

They also give 10% of their income to the church in a tithe. This makes me cringe. Again, he said it is their money, they can do what they want.

My arguement is that if you are a Christian, even your business should be ran in a Christian manner, and business isn't seperate. A lot of these decisions are shady in my book.

Income isn't excluded. Business isn't excluded.

This is not a thread to start flame wars or bashing. Just curious as to what you think.

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 01:19 PM by HotSauce

I think what they are doing is fine. Your dad is right, it is their money so it is their choice how to spend it. I dont't think it is immoral to make use of loopholes in the tax code, that is just being wise. Jesus said pay Caeser what is Caesar's, he didn't say pay Caesar extra.

As far as the chandalier goes that is a one time expense (though I might have felt a little guilty about that purchase), but payying someones salary and benefits each month would be way more and recurring. A business owner has a responsibility to make a profit or break even, or they will go out of business and then they and all their employees will be out of work.

I admire them tything.. It is good to share money with others, and they feel as though it is what God calls them to do. Sounds wise to me. Their church probably uses the money to do a lot of outreach.

[edit on 7-11-2009 by HotSauce]

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 01:24 PM by nixie_nox

reply to post by HotSauce

I see what your saying but don't you think it is deceitful to write a trip off as a business expense, when it really isn't? I see it as stealing.

Though I do like the line about Ceasar.

When you employ someone, they are working for you. YOu are essentially taking them under your wing. The way I see it is that you gave them a job they thought was secure, but now you have taken that away, when they could of worked for someone else as more secure. So you have now put them in a desperate position, yet you have retained enough money to buy a chandelier.

Of course a business is to make money. But I am looking at this morally. The arrangement started off morally when you provided friends with jobs, but it is suddenly business when you have to let them go.

[edit on 7-11-2009 by nixie_nox]

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 01:27 PM by HotSauce

reply to post by nixie_nox

Well you have to look at it from the eyes of a tax lawyer. Like it they take a bit of the trip to do something for their busines that is specific to that local, like say meet a vendor for dinner to discuss their relationship then legally it is a tax write off.

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 01:29 PM by nixie_nox

reply to post by HotSauce

Seriously if that was the case I wouldn't have a problem with it. But they are just taking vacations and pretending it is a business trip.

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 01:32 PM by HotSauce

reply to post by nixie_nox

I see your point, but the tax law is relatively open on this. They could even say it was the location for their board meeting or a retreat for the management. There are all kinds of ways to make it a legal write off as long as you plan ahead.

Plus, do you see any difference between theem donating 10% of their income to their church or any other tax deductible non-profit?

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 02:03 PM by chiron613

It's their money. They can do whatever they want. Now, if you ask "What would Jesus do?", I think most of us would say he'd probably use the money to help folks. But not everyone who professes to be a Christian, actually follows the teachings of Jesus.

This is where we get into so many useless arguments, I think. Anyone can claim to be a Christian, but very few people actually follow what Jesus taught. A lot of so-called Christians claim that the Bible is the true Word of God, but haven't even read the whole thing through. Yet they feel qualified to tell others they're going to hell, and so on.

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
(Matthew 6:24)

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 02:14 PM by HotSauce

reply to post by chiron613

Well I do see your point, but remember when Mary Magdeline bought the expensive oil to put on Jesus and the others in the group said she should have used the money for the poor? Jesus defended her by saying that their will always be poor, but that what she was doing was an act of love.

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 02:14 PM by ZombieOctopus

How is this a conspiracy in religion? Does being a Christian require them to commit tax fraud by threat of crucifixion?

This goes here

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 02:32 PM by novacs4me

As born-again Christians, my husband and I are always aware that our actions need to line up with our beliefs. We don't always succeed, and when we don't, we see the consequences because family members are always watching for slip-ups. But in the area of finances, we have toed the line, so to speak. We don't fudge on our taxes, and we don't put illegal copies of software on our computer, etc. This has born fruit.

Once a friend offered my husband a good deal on some possibly hot tires, and he rejected the offer, and my husband explained that it didn't line up with his faith. Years later that friend called to tell us he had just accepted Christ as his savior, and that it had bugged him for years that my husband wouldn't accept the tires. This also helped the friend see that there was merit to this kind of faith.

Another time my husband's sister suggested that he claim he lived in a different province to get a lower income tax rate. Again he refused, and she never forgot that. She recently became a Christian, and this was a factor in her decision.

Does it matter how you conduct every part of your life? Yes! I would say it does!

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 02:40 PM by kyred

Oh, well. Yeah, OP, it does seem strange for a Christian to splurge on himself while laying off other folks in his employ. It seems strange to me, but it is quite common and so what do I know? What would Jesus do? Well, he wouldn't have a paying job in the first place.

He'd live off the goodwill of others. Meanwhile, buying an expensive chandelier has helped other folks keep their jobs, at least for another day.

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 02:45 PM by Silver Shadow

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.........

www.biblegateway.com...

In other words, a Christian should observe Man's laws regarding taxation as well as God's law.

As to being wealthy, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being wealthy, as long as it was gained honestly.

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 02:53 PM by xynephadyn

Christians, especially born again christians- are two faced, selfish, self righteous, mother #ers.

I have two in my family- my mother and my sister.

Where as it doesent take a religion to make you a good person, it does take a religion to completely distort your perception, and their perception is that they are holier than holy cow dung and that whomever doesent believe in their garbage is going to hell.

What a load of crock. Believe what you want, but dont be a dick about it.
my two cents

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 04:29 PM by nixie_nox

reply to post by ZombieOctopus

I was trying to avoid it because I didn't want it viewed as flaming but I often wonder if they use their influence in the religious community to further their business.

I also have always felt that the christian religion's downfall is that it offers redemtion, so it attracts less then stellar types so they can be forgiven over and over again. They go to church and they feel better about what they have done.

The most disturbing thing I found was giving 10% of the tithe right to the church.

I have always felt that it should go right to charity. Yes, churches do good things with it but I would rather see my money go right to the source.

I watched a show once where a single mom working two jobs still gave 10% to her church and I was horrified. And I thought that church should of been shamed.

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 04:36 PM by nixie_nox

reply to post by Silver Shadow

Well here is the other discrpency I had a problem with. The whole family claims that business is business. But yet when one relative needed help, they gave him a place to stay, on the condition he goes to church. They gave him a job. But the control came down to they could only approve a girl from church for him to date.

So they had no problem mixing business with religion then.

Yes they should keep some of their money. And hiring friends and family was great up until that point. But to lay off people yet still spending money on such silly and indulgent things, just doesn't seem right to me.

I actually find that bit about the expensive oil kind of odd and out of line with a lot of teachings. Jesus lived without material possessions. He was very active helping the poor. So to suddenly say that Mary rubbing his feet with expensive oil was ok and a flippant response that there will always be poor seems pretty out of line to me.

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 05:00 PM by Grandma

reply to post by HotSauce

Actually he said something along this line, The poor you will always have with you, but you will have me for just a little while Of course I don't think the disciples understood what he was talking about.

I agree they should run their business with the same love and compassion that Christ told us to have for all our fellow man.

Peace as always,
Grandma

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 06:38 PM by troubleshooter

reply to post by nixie_nox

There are seven churches mentioned symbolically in Revelation.

Christian theologians called Historicists believe these represent seven phases of Christendom...
...the seventh and final phase is represented by the church of Laodicea...
...and this is what Jesus said to John about Laodicea.

"I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked." Revelation 3:15-17

This is a perfect summary of the contradictions you describe...
...Christians in this era think themselves to be one thing but are another.

The symbolic advice that follows indicates that professing Christians must again understand the events that gave birth to Christianity...
...because as foolish as a dying and rising God/man may be it is where their real power resides.

Christianity originally became popular and grew because of its service to other people...
...when disease struck a town in the first century, the healthy fled...
...but Christians in that time stayed to help family and anyone afflicted...
...they seemed to have power to heal and power over the demonic and were not afraid of death.

This final church phase is said to be devoid of this or two faced...
...its founder is seen standing outside it knocking to be admitted...
...while those inside argue about doctrinal fern seeds and who they should admit into there congregations...
...and segment their lives like other post-moderns just as you have described.

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 07:06 PM by mostlyspoons

There are less true christians in the world than any religion. If you go to church and look around, though every seat is filled you might spot a christian or two if you're lucky.

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 07:22 PM by troubleshooter

Originally posted by mostlyspoons
There are less true christians in the world than any religion. If you go to church and look around, though every seat is filled you might spot a christian or two if you're lucky.

Christianity was not originally a 'religion'...
...they were people who took the Spirit of Christ to other people...
...they were Christ-ones...
...quite literally the Spirit of Jesus lived out His life in them...
...when two or more of these Christ-ones were together it was referred to as an 'ekklesia', a Greek work that literally means 'a gathering' or 'assembly' and often used of villages when they met in a public place.

This secular term evolved into 'ecclessiology' and Anglesized 'church'.

Christianity did not begin as an organization and the division of clergy and laity was even condemned...
...first century Chritians would not recognise what we call Christianity today.

reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 07:24 PM by Stormdancer777

reply to post by xynephadyn