Science Vs.

FAITH-


1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
synonyms see belief
— on faith : without question


Belief-

1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.


Science-


1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like systematized knowledge
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical world and its phenomena : natural science
4 : a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws

Hate to piss on your parade but theoretical physics is faith too... faith in mathematics, at least. Certainly you see this? I mean, come on - black holes (ain't really all that black), quantum physics... am I really supposed to believe that light is not only a wave, but a wave and a particle, or sometimes a wave and sometimes a particle? That takes a LOT of faith! And black holes with their infinite timewarps, and how about nothing travelling faster than light? All of modern theoretical physics MIGHT AS WELL be written in some bible (hey maybe "A Brief History of Time" can be our new bible?) because its about as hard to prove that stuff as it is to prove God.

Originally posted by Sacrosanct
Hate to piss on your parade but theoretical physics is faith too... faith in mathematics, at least. Certainly you see this? I mean, come on - black holes (ain't really all that black), quantum physics... am I really supposed to believe that light is not only a wave, but a wave and a particle, or sometimes a wave and sometimes a particle? That takes a LOT of faith! And black holes with their infinite timewarps, and how about nothing travelling faster than light? All of modern theoretical physics MIGHT AS WELL be written in some bible (hey maybe "A Brief History of Time" can be our new bible?) because its about as hard to prove that stuff as it is to prove God.

All that stuff you listed, well if you can find a alternative! Do it!

Science is easier to prove, than any of the alternative theories which all wind up saying "And than a magical invisible being did it".

Remember X-Rays?

reply to post by Republican08



That doesn't make any sense! How am I supposed to find an alternative to black holes? I can easily just say well #, they don't even exist. How's that for an alternative? Yeah, you and your gravitational lensing devices can suck on it cause that's just scientific hobble gobble and it ain't real! Science takes just as much faith as religion - this is all I'm arguing... just because it seems more credible doesn't make it any more real. Certainly you can see this?

Or do I need to remind you just how many scientists... well known scientists, at that... were against the whole idea of relativity, of quantum mechanics, of black holes... (albeit, these people were still entrenched in the idea of 'ether' but still)

there have been a multitude of experiments trying to prove Einsteins special theory - most of them have indeed succeeded with astonishing results - but Einstein - much like Aristotle - believed that the whole Universe could be figured out by thought alone - experimentation was not needed (and need I remind that Aristotle was most certainly wrong about gravitation... not to be disproved until Galileo!)

That's all I'm saying... Science is about faith as well. Well, not ALL science... but theoretical science is most certainly requiring faith. I would take all this new non sense with a grain of salt... just wait until some other prodigal genius comes along and demolishes all we ever thought to be right until science....

Einstein did it - it's possible it will happen again.

reply to post by Sacrosanct


No, I too believe that a baby is within the sperm, oh and that a big man is throwing thunderbolts down.

As far as plate tectonics, and tornados, I'm still up in the air to, I'm not quite buying into science's explanation.

reply to post by Republican08


You have misconstrued my statement. Read carefully, I said 'theoretical physics'... all those things are explainable phenomena - stop trying to instigate me. I am stating my opinion it's as simple as that. And my opinion is that theoretical physics doesn't hold much water. Einsteinian physics has a long ways to go before I can accept it as the norm. Newtonian physics is easier to gobble up simply for the fact that, I, myself, can conduct experiments and find the results on my own. The new branch of physics is much harder to conduct experiments on my own - you either need more than one observer, or some crazy technologies and materials that someone of my stature and funding could never hope to get.

So in short - stop trying to start # with me because YOU made a topic which stated that science can never be wrong!

reply to post by Sacrosanct


First off, science can be wrong, in a way, it's usually wrong, and it then corrects itself

Theoretical physics doesn't need your acceptance, just boosts and such, or for you to inquire about it.

My topic is that science is above 'faith', or 'belief' a acceptance of something that isn't proved.

I'd guess that you'd fall under the category of scientist.

Idon't know if science is ever wrong or not, but I'm afraid this statement
right here

You will never see a Christian as passionate, or upset, when he/she (for feminist reasons) finds out someone is an atheist, even if they learn they are Muslim or Hindus, they are more 'ok' but an 'Atheist!' No, this is to terrible!

Is bogus crap and you know it.
What's up with you 08? This isn't like you.
At least not that statement.
I don't remember you ever saying anything so weak.


[edit on 6-11-2009 by randyvs]

Originally posted by Republican08
You will never see a Christian as passionate, or upset, when he/she (for feminist reasons) finds out someone is an atheist, even if they learn they are Muslim or Hindus, they are more 'ok' but an 'Atheist!' No, this is to terrible!

maybe they aren't annoyed with the fact that you're an athiest, maybe they're annoyed by the fact that you are using you atheism to start an argument with them.

atheists seem to have some sort of disorder where they need everyone to believe the same things they do, so you get stupid threads called "science vs". vs what?!? christians? the christian religion doesn't oppose science. a priest came up with the big bang theory ffs. there hasn't been any real argument since galileo and if you knew your history you'ld know that argument was about power, not religion.

it's a sickness. it's called full-of-your-importan-itus. want to know what the cure is? move out of your parents house and go get a life.

reply to post by pieman


Aww, that's a bit unnecessary don't ya think.

When did I ever try to personally attack you

Oh I didn't

Which means, Gasp.

reply to post by randyvs


From my experience what he said is usually spot on and the norm. Certainly not for *all* Christians, but the vast majority I have encountered do seem to act that way.

I really don't think it's necessary to choose one or the other. There is no versus in my opinion, both are useful to humanity and both have weaknesses as well.

In the words of Bruce Lee:

"Here is the natural instinct and here is control. You are to combine the two in harmony. If you have one to the extreme, you will be very unscientific. If you have the other to the extreme, you become all of a sudden a mechanical man, no longer a human being. It is a successful combination of both."

I understand your opinion that religious ideas are outdated because of science and I agree, for the most part. However, I don't think that necessarily means faith and/or spiritual beliefs should be done away with. I really do think that religious and scientific communities should be more cooperative. If both sides could get over their knee-jerk reaction to scoff at the other, we might actually get somewhere in both schools of philosophy.

And as for Christians being more accepting of other religions as opposed to those who have no religion, I really wouldn't know. I make it a rule for myself only to discuss the topic with people that I trust.

Originally posted by Sacrosanct
Hate to piss on your parade but theoretical physics is faith too... faith in mathematics, at least. Certainly you see this? I mean, come on - black holes (ain't really all that black), quantum physics... am I really supposed to believe that light is not only a wave, but a wave and a particle, or sometimes a wave and sometimes a particle? That takes a LOT of faith! And black holes with their infinite timewarps, and how about nothing travelling faster than light? All of modern theoretical physics MIGHT AS WELL be written in some bible (hey maybe "A Brief History of Time" can be our new bible?) because its about as hard to prove that stuff as it is to prove God.

Come on you don't really believe that do you? Your belief in the evidence for quantum physics is irrelevant. The experiments are some of the most accurate & replicated in the world because they are just so freaking weird. Regardless of the final explanation, the experiments show us wave particle duality. The experiments are data. Evidence. Repeated. Tens of thousands of times, every physicist in the world wanting to be the first one to break it down for the last hundred years. Yet the experiments hold, the predictions are confirmed.

Compare that to the bible. Saying quantum physics is wrong is different than not accepting the evidence. QED is the only explanation we have that explains what we have seen over the last hundred years, again and again. If you think you can do better, go for it, but that doesn't change the experimental facts.

"Science is about faith as well [Not ALL sciences]".

First of all religion vs science is fake; science has no oppontent in this infamous battle worthy of respect or notice; in the contrary, philosophy is.

The strong forte of science is empiricm in the truth and experientialism in knowledge; for philosophy is the ethicism of morals and the questioning for truths and knowledge.

99.9 percent of science has no faith, does not need faith, nor will it ever request the help of faith.

If you want to make such an absolute claim; making a statement that through out the history of a discipline, faith is interlinked with "facts", you should do your homework better.

This re-verse logic or re-engineering approach; just because a few, extremely selective theories, irreducible possibilities of something/something have "faith" involved, does not mean every single time it is faith + knowing = science.

The sooner you realize that both science and religion(philosophy at the root) are 2 completely separate domains, with 2 completely different purposes, the better off you will be.

Anyone who argues Science vs Religion on either side obviously doesn't have the first real clue about either of them. If they did have a real clue, then they would realize it's about like arguing over if the wheels or the engine on a car is "right".

Both are needed. Both have their purposes, and failure to understand both leads to an extremely unbalanced person. All either side is doing is pointing fingers at the unbalance of the other side, ignoring their own faults.

Science is the realm of the physical, logic and so forth. It works on action and reaction. It is very good in telling us about the world around us. Because of it, we have nice technology and things of that nature.

Philosophy(religion) is the realm of understanding. Understanding of what it means "to be", what it means to be an observer and so forth. In Philosophy you can find the secrets to "being".

Reality has 2 parts. 1st, there is the observer or that which experiences things(consciousness). 2nd, there is that which is observed and experienced(the universe). Science is for that which is observed and experience, religion and philosophy is for that dealing with the observer.

There is no reason to choose 1 or the other, and anyone suggesting that needs to get a clue. You can't have science without the scientist(observer, that which is able to percieve and understand), and there is no "reality" to be experienced without the universe/creation.

As long as you want to fight about the 2, you're only limiting yourself in both. If you can start to understand the relationship with things, then maybe you will start to understand things.

Quantum physics is coming to understand these things about "reality". So what excuse are you going to use when that topic is no longer taboo?





[edit on 11/19/2009 by badmedia]

I will Updt this as soon as possible:

Science and Religion in my head are like this;

You have infront of you water and air;

One is reality checking [water] and the other is mental helping [air].

Science - physical world

Faith - spiritual world.

period. end quote. thanks.

reply to post by Sacrosanct


No, because math is undeniable fact.

Pick up a rock. Now pick up another rock. Then smack them against your head - how many rocks just bonked your noggin?

Two! Two rocks, ah ah ah!

This is a universal constant, and is not a matter of belief. A matter of belief would be saying that sometimes 1 + 1 = 45. It's untrue, but you're free to believe it.

Ah science , thats the one that synthesized over 90,000
synthetic chemicals and gave them to an unsuspecting public ,
that , in 50 years , will sterilize men !

Thanks a lot science

.... and thats the one that reckons one particular species of woodpecker
can evolve a tongue that exits the back of the throat , passes over the head , under the skin , and enters the mouth , at the back of the beak .!?


.... and thats the one that invented nuclear weapons with the ability
to wipe out everything , if enough crazies at the top , deem it necessary.
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

..... and on and on .

Belief in God however, has kept going because of peoples personal
experiences with the miraculous .

.... about a year ago , a woman in America drove into a flooded
river ,windows up , car sank , rescuers unable to smash windows ,
hey presto , woman comes to surface , into arms of rescuers , car
removed from water , windows still up . please explain ?

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Sacrosanct

 

No, because math is undeniable fact.

Pick up a rock. Now pick up another rock. Then smack them against your head - how many rocks just bonked your noggin?

Two! Two rocks, ah ah ah!

This is a universal constant, and is not a matter of belief. A matter of belief would be saying that sometimes 1 + 1 = 45. It's untrue, but you're free to believe it.

It is universal because it is based on understanding. In religion, it is the exact same thing as what you said in math.

Proverbs 9

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

In proverbs 8, wisdom and understanding is what is considered rich in the eyes of god, and that is what he rewards those with who find him.

So, when it comes to religion, you have to look beyond the idols and into the understanding behind it.

When you truly get the philosophy of it, then it works exactly like the 1+1=2 thing you speak of.

Can you prove that 1+1=2 to the man who doesn't understand math or the concept of addition? If that same man accepts what you says and repeats 1+1=2, does that mean that man is smart, even if he doesn't understand?

Same thing in religion/philosophy/knowledge of the holy.

"Any fool can know, the point is to understand." - Albert Einstein.

Jesus is asked - why do you speak in parables, and the basic response is - to give understanding. Identify a pattern in something physical and knowable, and then apply the pattern in bigger things that can't be seen or grasped. Same thing science does. We see gravity in our solar system, and apply it to the galaxy and so forth. Because 1+1=2 and 3,000,000,000 + 3,000,000,000 = 9,000,000,000 is based on the same understanding.