Healthcare reform ( I need a few sounding boards)

First off, Mods if this needs to be moved then please do so. I wasn't quite sure where to post. As the title states I need some of our ATS'ers to serve as a sounding board. I am truly in the middle of the healthcare debate. Now I am well aware of the different news reports and have even read 2 (mostly, with migraines to prove it)of the bills. But recently my situation has caused me to re-evaluate some of my beliefs and stances about this subject and would like an honest "no holds barred" discussionabout this topic. Of course sideline the political and personal attacks please.

Now for a little background: I have about 20 years in the workforce, paid my taxes and only once , during my daughters birth (13 years ago), apply for public assistance ( in the form of WIC). I have worked mostly law enforcement and manual labor jobs , even using day labor during a homeless spell. Now I am at a decent time in my llife however 3 months ago I was injured at work (strained lumbar) and to make a long story short found out after an MRI and bone scan that essentially my lumbar area is in the shape of an 80 year old. In other words I can't stand up and it is almost impossible for me to work as I have to rotate activity every 15 minutes between standing sitting and laying down, along with some wicked pain meds. Worker's comp denied any claim for the "pre-existing conditions" and I am now declined by my work's medical insurance for the same thing as I only recently became eligible. I am not telling you this as a means of garnering sympathy. I am however asking for opinions from those on both sides, as I have had to bite the bullet and do something at my young age that I thought I would never do. File for Social Security Disability. ( I have a daughter to look out for and that was my main drive) .

Now before all this happened I was completely against the healthcare bill or ANY attempt to socialize medicine. Now the only 2 things I want out of the bill is mobility of coverage and kill "pre-existing conditions". Honestly I am not nor have I ever been one to suck on the gov't teet, however I have garnered new respect for the safety net. I used to look down on people in my situation as not attempting to do EVERYTHING they can to avoid taking help. I am just at a crossroads and want to have an honest discussion about this subject. No vitriol, no political pissing matches, just honest opinions.

reply to post by djvexd


Well, for starters, how can you discuss a health care bill when you have little idea what is in the bill that is being voted on???
Pelosi Breaks Pledge to Put Final Health Care Bill Online for 72 Hours Before Vote


I think the way this bill is being forced on the American people without a referendum, without public input, the way the Cap and Trade bill was handled in a similar way is outrageous!

Edit to correct link not working

[edit on 5/11/09 by plumranch]

reply to post by djvexd


Welll I think you should take yourself out of the equation. You have to decide for yourself is this a good financial move for a country that is over $11 trillion in debt and faces short falls in SS and Medicare that make that number pail in comparison.

What kind of healthcare are you and your family going to have once they bankrupt the country? Will it matter when you won't even be able to afford to eat?

I'm sorry you had to learn the hard way. It's different when it's you, isn't it?

Some people are able to put themselves in other people's places even when it's NOT them. It's called empathy. Compassion. Caring.

I'm truely sorry you are having a hard time, and I sincerely wish you my best.

It would be nice if other's could learn from your experiences. Thank you so much for sharing this.

reply to post by HotSauce


Lol. "Take yourself out of the equation". Do you have any idea how completely laughable that is? It is PERSONAL.

Now, come back and tell us all how you have taken yourself out of the equation. Right. It's not at all about you.

All I've heard for the last few months are people whining and crying over every quarter they have ever made, and it's nobody's fault but their own if they don't have insurance and blah blah blah.

But you are soo broad minded and civic minded, and selfless.
Take yourself out of the equation. Please. Gag.

[edit on 11/5/0909 by ladyinwaiting]

Both of you are correct. The entire overhaul needs to wait. A few things, could be put forward as the mobility and killing the PRECON's. And as much as I have had time to think on this subject to take myself out of the picture, unfortunatly the present is a different matter. I don't wish to impose anything on others that could destroy quality of life or to remove hard earned money from families or people that are trying just to make thier way. I am just trying to understand WHY we can't incrementally do this. But that being said, I cannot in good concious, advocate something that will IMO destroy our economy. If Obama and Pelosi would wait 2 years and pitch this again after what we can see for saving our economy I think the public and myself wouldn't have such an aversion to it.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Well why don't you tell me how a bill that is already 300billion over the original 900billion dollar budget and it isn't even signed yet is not going to bankrupt this country. What is your idea to actually pay for this pile of stuff.

I would assume, considering the threads you've authored on this topic, you would have some idea of what has been said.

To be sure I am taking every last one of your guys and ladies posts in. I know none of us ACTUALLY have a say outside of contacting our reps, as this bill won't be put up for referendum. It is more of a fact of trying to square things away in my head about it. I could be helped by it's passage although my daughter and grand kids may or may not be hurt by it. I will always put my daughter's welfare before my own....no question, but at the same time if I can get "fixed through reform" how is that not better than me sucking of the public dole? Ugh.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


I suppose you are talking to me. My answer is that it cannot be paid for. I do understand the want to give healthcare to all, but you can't always get what you want, especially when your country cannot even balance it current budget without this huge government entitlement and tax program.

How are we going to be able to create jobs if companies are assauted with healthcare taxes and cap and trade taxes?

reply to post by HotSauce


So, you are concerned about our country being able to balance the budget. This has nothing to do with your fear of the possibility of your personal taxes, or that you might be taxed more?

Because you have taken yourself out of the equation, right?

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Yes I have taken myself out of the equation. If we weren't already taxed nearly 50percent once you add up state, federal, sales, local, social security, fica, and med taxes and even with that much tax every government (state, fed, local) is on the verge of bankruptcy then maybe I would be for this.

Have you taken yourself out of the equation?

[edit on 5-11-2009 by HotSauce]

reply to post by HotSauce


Sorry, I don't believe you. What you really mean is if YOU weren't already taxed blah blah blah.

Put perfume on a skunk it's still a skunk. You are singing only one song, and you've sung it all over your threads and as far as I am concerned, it can be a solo.

Bonjour.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Well why don't you just tell me how we are going to pay for healthcare, pay for cap and trade, and still be able to pay down the debt and have businesses with any money left to create jobs. Please. If you can make a good case I will glady support healthcare "reform".

With all due respect state and local taxes are not valid points in this equation as they do not get funneled into the federal pot. You have the right to relocate to another state to avoid those taxes, NY NJ and Cal being the worst followed by Was and Or. Don't try and muddy the waters with taxes that are not levied against the entire nation.

reply to post by djvexd


Well you might want to consider it since businesses and the rich (the 5% that pay 50% of the taxes) are leaving the high tax states you listed in droves.

Truth is businesses and rich people have already proven they can take their businessnes, jobs, and money out of this country and do quite fine.

So what are we going to do when the 5% that pays 50% of all taxes take their ball and goes and plays on another team?

reply to post by HotSauce


To be honest they do what Boeing has done...move to a less restrictive state. Yes it will cause an increase in initial costs but they wouldn't have dela with cost increase PLUS a massive tax from the state level. You are right however that alot of businesses do move overseas to negate the cost. I don't agree with taxing the successful for those of us who aren't. I don't subscribe to it and don't agree with it but at the same time whan 35% of my tax money is goin to fund safety net programs I should be able to utilize them without the more successful accusing the latter of riding thier coattails.

reply to post by djvexd


Well I am not accusing you of riding anyones coat tails and I feel for your situation. Like I have said before if we weren't overtaxed and overregulated to the point that we cannot compete in the global market, and if we had a surplus of money then I would be more favorable to government subsidized healthcare.

I believe if you have a deabiltating condition and you cannot work you are eligible for Social Security and Medicare benefits, so maybe you might want to look into that as a a solution to your particular problem.

reply to post by HotSauce


Well HS -

LETS just say your premiums raise 100% in ten years as they have in the last.

For business's the increase is 131% in the last decade-

Will you or *employer* be able to pay for insurance under this current system?

My main problem with the current system is we are paying for the distribution of "our" money to Providers, basically. Insurance companies do not perform anything physical, they fund "healthcare" with their customers money and ARE IN THE BUSINESS of keeping as much of the money as they can.

In thirty years - provided the rates move in the same direction at the same rate -

Over the last decade, employer-sponsored health insurance premiums have increased 131 percent. 4


The average employer-sponsored premium for a family of four costs close to $13,400 a year, and the employee foots about 27 percent of this cost.4 Health insurance costs are the fastest growing expense for employers. Employer health insurance costs overtook profits in 2008, and the gap grows steadily. 5

www.nchc.org...

another source or find your own

www.usatoday.com...

so lets do the math and I will be fair - I think you will be surprised

so 131% increase on 13,400 in ten years = 's $30, 944 in 2019

now lets keep that rate up and jump to 2029-

$71,480 to cover a family of four if things stayed exactly the same -

IN TWENTY YEARS - do the math yourself if you want

I'm not fudging this or spinning this - I don't know ANYBODY who can afford such premiums.

It is a problem that is not going away -









[edit on 5-11-2009 by Janky Red]