At Least 7 Dead, 12 Wounded in Shooting at Ft. Hood in Texas

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Having never been sufficiently moved to commit either suicide or homicide, I can't really comment about that.

However I think in order for either to happen one must be in an extraordinarily bleak and desperate frame of mind.

I cannot imagine being sufficiently moved by a political cause to want to commit murder. Ever.

Since this individual was American born I presume his mental state was, at some point, not too different to mine (sharing a reasonably similar cultural background).

So what changed? What flipped the switch to turn a disgruntled individual into a murderer?

reply to post by mattpryor


could be many things
how about this:
www.naturalnews.com...

I think the guy just snapped
and if what the army says is true, that they knew of odd behavior for a long time and connections to extremists then why didn't these idiots do anything?

sounds too much like 911 to me in so many ways

reply to post by ModernAcademia


He almost certainly did just "snap". He went postal. No different to Michael Ryan, Harris or Klebold. But what needs to be understood is what caused him to snap.

Excessive use of mind altering substances can induce psychosis, paranoia, and make the world seem a much worse place than it really is, so I agree that this could be a very real possibility. Did he have any history of drug use?

Other than that, I can only assume there were outside influences.

reply to post by mattpryor


I mean i can't even come close to understanding why he would go on a mass murdering spree

but muslims to very much tend to call themselves brothers, whether they are from the same country or not. Sure there's sect vs. sect in-wars but that's another issue.

to the average muslim, working as a person who must hear stories of people murdering what he may perceive as his brothers and sisters cannot be an easy thing.
That coupled with mind altering drugs may be the answer.

I was born here too, but I am an east indian.
So despite being born here, i always keep up to date on what's going on in India

He was born here but he was brought up in a muslim family
I was born here but I was brought up in an east indian hindu punjabi family

Asians are VERY cultural and VERY family oriented
If many north americans go to India as a first time visit they'll get culture shock to see how family oriented asians are.
And that goes for India, the middle east, and the orient

My only point is that, it would be very hard for a white caucasian to understand certain things and go in the mind of an asian to try and undertsand them.
And that's no disrespect to anybody, being different isn't wrong, it's just different.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I pretty much agree with what you're saying. A strong feeling of familial ties with strangers who live on the opposite side of the world is something which most Westerners find strange, and to be frank, unsettling in the context of the world we live in.

Unfortunately that fear can be easily exploited by malevolent people and organisations. Just as a Muslim's feeling of brotherhood with strangers can also be exploited by those that wish to control them or coerce them into doing things such as this.

All the more reason for the rational, reasonable majority to remain that way and keep a level head in spite of what's going on.

reply to post by mattpryor


Matt everything everyone does is shaped by external stimuli. Conversely it could be argued that your need and or desire to discuss such subjects on ATS are born of such external stimuli. Trust me though when I say I am not curious about what compels you to post on ATS or on this subject or on this thread.

As far as understanding other people if it is to truly understand in an empathy driven versus agenda driven way I recommend the old American Indian saying “Walk a mile in another man’s moccasins”.

Many posters to this thread could simply not do that under any circumstances as they are in a rush to judge this man’s alleged crimes even before the Court and a jury of his peers do, even in absence of real evidence and real facts. Why? They are agenda driven.

A few posters to the thread are genuinely curious as to what happened. Is there a breakdown somewhere along the line in the Military, in our society, in our Government that breeds such external stimuli needlessly or carelessly that leads to the type of stimuli that might have pushed this man over the edge?

Yesterday a Marine in Tampa attacked an Armenian Orthodox Church Priest who was asking for directions in a parking garage with a tire iron, and claimed to Tampa Police responding to the call that this Christian non-English speaking Clergy Man shouted Allah Akbar as he approached him!

Of course the police understood that this Christian Priest actually hadn’t but the Marine felt certain he could beat assault charges by ignorantly claiming this bearded clergy man who didn’t speak English was a Muslim and a terrorist and kept defending his actions in allegedly assaulting the Christian Priest based on being a Marine and his Rank and that he ‘knows’ who terrorists are and aren’t.

Conversely we could ask what caused this Marine to act in such a violent and bizarre manner. What radicalized him to believing Armenian Christian Clergy Men would shout Allah Akbar when asking for directions?

Here is what we do know. That the United States, the State of Texas and the U.S. Military have not as yet charged the alleged Ft. Hood shooter with any crime.

We know that there were a lot of conflicting reports on the day of the crime. We know many mainstream news media outlets and fringe and alternative news outlets and blogs are rife with speculation from the naturally and honestly curious to the agenda driven on both sides of the aisle.

Much of what’s being reported and then discussed on line by people such as you and I who feel compelled to discuss the subject has been taken out of the context from investigators speaking with anonymity because they haven’t been granted official permission to disclose the information, and then have had elements both withheld and embellished for agenda driven purposes.

Ultimately in the United States of America every person who stands accused of a crime is innocent until proven guilty. Authorities for the Military and the Government as well as defense attorneys will all get their day in court to present actual facts as they have been discovered and a jury of honest men and women selected for having a fair and unbiased mind will decide to its validity.

Ultimately Matt intelligent people can usually spot the difference between the agenda driven and the naturally curious and the naturally empathetic people who actually care about all sides of the problem.

A great and true tragedy occurred in Ft. Hood. A greater tragedy would be rushing to false conclusions that perpetuate the problems and allow them to continue to flourish that lead to it.

America doesn’t need another band aide for what’s ailing it, or agenda driven people advising it and muddying the waters as they seek to deflect from and down play the real root causes that lead to such tragedies America needs real answers.

The rhetorical questions and paraphrasing in your own posts suggest that you have no real ones.

Letting the constitutional process of justice work takes wisdom, time and patience, as the wheels of justice grind slowly but grind exceedingly fine. True Americans, intelligent Americans will always be circumspect of those looking to throw a monkey wrench of any kind into that machine.

On German n-TV they questioned the role of the female officer, who shot the
killer. I will watch out for details.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


You're right, I don't have any answers for you. Nor would I presume to offer them if I did.

I do have questions though, and in spite of your somewhat harsh assessment of my position they are not rhetorical. I genuinely wish to understand what goes through the mind of someone who does something like this. What pushes them to that level of desperation?

Most importantly, can society offer other outlets for people that feel that strongly about an issue to vent their frustration before it blows up in this manner?

I'm a firm believer that giving people opportunities to vent their grievances can diffuse the sense of frustration and injustice and prevent things like this from happening. It wasn't bombs and bullets that stopped the communist movement in my country at the turn of the 20th century, it was involving the working classes in politics and debate.

At present, in my country at least, there is no such outlet for Muslims that feel a sense of personal injustice due to what is happening in the world. Debate is stifled, and anger is suppressed or kept behind closed doors.

Interestingly, since you raise the point, I do think that posting on sites like this can help.

Originally posted by merkava

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by merkava
One thing for sure, hes gona meet the same fate as john allen muhammad.

As you can see even his muslim fellas ditched him.

Sounds like he was just using islam to hide his real nutcase character.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by merkava]

No, what you see is the only group to distance themselves.

The ones who agree do not put out press releases.

Lack of publicity is not the same as lack of existence.

reply to post by mattpryor

At present, in my country at least, there is no such outlet for Muslims that feel a sense of personal injustice due to what is happening in the world. Debate is stifled, and anger is suppressed or kept behind closed doors.

Matt first and foremost the alleged shooter at Ft. Hood is a human being. We all are. Secondly he was an American.
I know you are English and that England and American share many common values but this man is an American like everyone born here is for better or worse. Thirdly he is a soldier and an officer in the United States Military.
These are the most important aspects of who he is.

Like many people the world over Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhists, Wiccans, Occultists and many other more obscure faiths he has a faith.

Your assumption is that being Muslim overrode all other factors but it is just an assumption and nothing that any credible evidence presented and accepted in a Court of Law actually substantiates.

Your assumption is that only Muslims care about injustice in Muslim nations.

I am an agnostic and I care about injustice all over the world and right here in America. Many people do.

Sadly many people have to divide themselves into herds and insist everyone else be placed in a herd when formulating what is essentially unjust to all human beings regardless of religion, nationality, race, creed, sex or sexual orientation.

They often do this to make some injustices less unjust or more unjust and they often do this in an ignorant and biased way.

The truth is all Americans and this man is an American and all citizens of the UK have access to a wide variety of forums for support and help when it comes to dealing with and coming to terms with the injustices of the world.

What you are alluding to is that all Muslims represent some violent potential and that non-Muslims don’t know what that might be because there is no way to monitor the feelings of all Muslims living in the United Kingdom in your case and the United States in my case. That they are somehow more susceptible reaching some violent point in dealing with the injustices of the world simply because they are Muslim.

I don’t believe that’s a valid fear and the reality is that here in the United States Muslims carry out violent crimes at a far lower rate than non-Muslims. Texas’s Death Row isn’t full of Muslims of Middle Eastern, or Asian decent. It’s full of mostly Christian Whites, Latinos and Blacks. Many of whom robbed and murdered and raped because of a perceived injustice in the world.

We all have an obligation as humans to confront all the injustices in the world Matt Pryor. Whether it’s the violence and famine in Africa, the tragic conflicts in the Middle East and Asia, the Balkans, the Bastes in Spain, the violent Narco-Trafficking in South and Central America and Asia or guerilla insurgencies in dozens of poor third world nations or even poverty, homelessness and hunger right here in America and there in the U.K.

The moment when humans recognize injustices for what they are instead of quantifying them as being a African thing or a Muslim thing or an Israeli thing, or a Latino thing, or a National thing or an Internationalist thing but simple a human thing is when we will stop the prevalent attitudes the condone injustices based on self-serving qualifications.

Are you worried about the Muslims for their sake, your sake, England’s sake or Israel’s sake Matt?

Where exists a place, a forum or institution where you can honestly talk about your own frustrations and fears.

For honestly I don’t believe you are fully and completely doing that. No offense but I see a man trying to give life to his fears, not striving to end injustice in the world, but perpetuating them by making his fears real by trying to make them real to others.

A wise man once said “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself”.

The War on Terror is all about making people afraid and frankly the so called ‘good guys’ do a much better job at making that fear palpable and real than the so called terrorists do.

From another eye witness:
"He would make frequent comments that he was a Muslim first and an American or an officer second, and also that, you know, Islamic law, Sharia law took precedence over the Constitution."

carrion.

Charged with premeditated murder.
Hmmmm. Premeditated? Must not have snapped, eh?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Again I get the impression that you are misrepresenting my position. I don't know if you are doing this deliberately for the benefit of those reading your posts (it's a sly debating technique), or if you are simply misjudging me.

In case you have me down as a Muslim hating fear monger, I am not, and I don't think I've ever posted a single thing on these forums which would suggest otherwise. Does that mean I'm not concerned about Islam in the UK? I am concerned, and I think legitimately so. I live in a city that was bombed by radicalised Muslims only a few years ago, and it is not something that is openly discussed, particularly between Muslims and non-Muslims. We're still scratching our heads and wondering why that act of senseless violence took place.

To deny the fact that there are individuals and organisations that seek to sew fear, mistrust and discord in order to gain political power is naive in the extreme. I've seen the rantings of so-called "Preachers of Hate" - who have a clear political agenda and exploit their religion to peddle it - and it is quite disturbing. I have also heard the rantings of far-right politicians, who seek to exploit the public's concerns about Islam in order to stir up hatred, and I think they're two sides of the same coin. I find both aspects unhealthy for Western liberal values (actually the latter more so, because they often appeal to a wider audience).

I don't think it's helpful in any way to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that such agendas do not exist. The challenge for politicians is the best way to neutralise their appeal to susceptible people. In my view open and frank debate is the best option we have.

All too often in history we lose the centre ground and reasonable people end up caught between two equally unpalatable extremes, the results of which are rarely good for anyone.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

....
Again I get the impression that you are misrepresenting my position. I don't know if you are doing this deliberately for the benefit of those reading your posts (it's a sly debating technique),

In case you have me down as a Muslim hating fear monger, I am not, ....

It's a technique used in cyberterrorism to deflect. Very common and shows the infiltration by agents of Islam who frequent forums for this sole purpose.
You have been attacked. How does it feel? Happens all over the net because there are tons of muslim agents who do so.

Best idea is to ignore it and teach people who are open minded and don't have an agenda. Part of the education process that is necessary in the US is to bypass this deflection and carry out the mission that we do without muslims who are there to disrupt.

Hi Matt,
I can only offer assumptions (same as anyone else here). That being said, you asked a question:

Originally posted by mattpryor
I genuinely wish to understand what goes through the mind of someone who does something like this. What pushes them to that level of desperation?

I could be wrong but, maybe it was not desperation. Let us assume for a moment that he most definitely committed the murder (he hasn't been tried yet). Maybe, he didn't go postal. Going postal means he snapped. His mind broke on some level and he almost reflexively went ahead and killed his fellow soldiers.
Maybe, he believed in what he was doing. Maybe, he believed he was doing the right thing. Maybe, he believed that doing what he did was worth whatever the consequences may be.
If that's the case, it is not someone snapping.
We can only guess, though.

reply to post by mattpryor


This is mostly true Matt and I can agree with you on a great deal of this except for this one aspect...

Muslims who are angry do in fact tell us why they are angry.

Very much like wives or girlfriends or lovers who tell us why they are angry we tend to be dismissive of their own heartfelt pleas and tell them in return they are mistaken.

Of course very often they aren't mistaken, very often it's us as individuals not wanting to own up to our actions and take responsibility for the consequences for them.

So instead we turn around and tell them why they shouldn't be angry, why they should view something they see and feel is a bad thing as a good thing.

That is of course what leads to frustration.

Very often we are dismissive of people's real concerns, feelings and valid points because we feel we are in a dictatorial position of strength and can afford to be that way as we center in on our own real concerns and feelings and sometimes valid points to dismiss theirs and in the end accomplish nothing.

If I was a Muslim reading these threads I would be highly offended by some of the people posting to them.

Not only do many people's attitudes prevent dialogue they bespeak people who don't want dialogue.

If you don't really have any idea why some Muslims are upset with United Kingdom and United States foreign policy it's truly because you aren't listening to them.

In part it's because how the most vocal Muslims spread their message that the message is rejected not so much because of it's lack of validity but because of the messenger and how they are broadcasting the message.

The hippies had a valid message of peace and love during the counter culture revolution of the late sixties and early seventies but the message itself was often rejected because the messengers frightened people in the way they dressed, the way they wore their hair, the language that they used and their recreational activities.

Ultimately a lot of people who could agree with the basic message worried if I do agree with the message does it mean I have to dress like that too, wear my hair like that, talk like that and do those things for recreation?

The sad truth is had more people listened to the message the Military Industrial Complex that exploits everyone around the world might have had it's growth limited and held in check.

In case you really haven't heard the more radical Muslims are protesting the intervention into their own nations by the Military Industrial Complex and how it kills and maims and makes life in general worse for the people of those nations and not better. They are protesting lopsided foreign policy that will reward one nation for the same human rights violations that it punishes another nation for.

The Saudis can do almost anything with impunity including its own citizens allegedly funding and carrying out the September 11th attacks in the United States. The Iraqis can't. The Iranians can't. The Israelis can do almost anything with impunity, the Lebanese can't the Palestinians can't.

The radical Muslims are upset about Western Foreign policy, its hypocrisies and it's selective punishments and rewards.

Are you really unaware of that Matt?

The Western Governments and their propagandas arms try to make that about Islam versus Christianity and Judaism but it's not.

The United States, the U.K., Russia, China and France are the biggest Arms Dealers on the planet and the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council.

What a convenient relationship for the Military Industrial Complex and the sad truth is you don't have to be a Radical Muslim to see the hypocrisy and fallacy in this.

The sadder truth is thanks to the War on Terror speaking against the hypocrisy, fallacy and injustice with this gets up lumped in with Radical Muslims and so called Terrorists, just ask JJay if you don't believe me!

Originally posted by really
Hi Matt,
I can only offer assumptions (same as anyone else here). That being said, you asked a question:

Originally posted by mattpryor
I genuinely wish to understand what goes through the mind of someone who does something like this. What pushes them to that level of desperation?

I could be wrong but, maybe it was not desperation. Let us assume for a moment that he most definitely committed the murder (he hasn't been tried yet). Maybe, he didn't go postal. Going postal means he snapped. His mind broke on some level and he almost reflexively went ahead and killed his fellow soldiers.
Maybe, he believed in what he was doing. Maybe, he believed he was doing the right thing. Maybe, he believed that doing what he did was worth whatever the consequences may be.
If that's the case, it is not someone snapping.
We can only guess, though.

Exactly, this is not someone snapping. He has been charged with premeditated murder so those in LE know why he did it. Now if the American public would quit apologizing and allowing muslims to be a victom because we don't understand them we would make some progress.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


As I said earlier Proto, there are a lot of angry people in the UK (and in the US I'm sure) who are extremely upset about our countries' foreign policies.

Most of them don't go around blowing up trains or shooting their colleagues.

Violence and murder, or incitement to violence and murder, is categorically not an acceptable form of expressing one's political opinions - which, no matter how emotionally affected by them people become, are just that.

And preachers that tell their congregation that UK and US troops are rampaging around Iraq and Afghanistan murdering and raping babies do so for political purposes and as a means of control.

I think we'll both agree that sedition is a very powerful tool.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

As I said earlier Proto, there are a lot of angry people in the UK (and in the US I'm sure) who are extremely upset about our countries' foreign policies.

Most of them don't go around blowing up trains or shooting their colleagues.

Violence and murder, or incitement to violence and murder, is categorically not an acceptable form of expressing one's political opinions - which, no matter how emotionally affected by them people become, are just that.

And preachers that tell their congregation that UK and US troops are rampaging around Iraq and Afghanistan murdering and raping babies do so for political purposes and as a means of control.

I think we'll both agree that sedition is a very powerful tool.

And in Islam it is accepted in Sharia Law to use violence and destruction. And since we now know since Ft Hood that Sharia Law comes before US Law or any other country's law you can see how this will turn out.

reply to post by JJay55


Well in response to that I'd firstly like to say that I don't want Sharia Law to be introduced in my country because it is incompatible with our (perfectly good) legal system. Every British Muslim I have spoken to on the subject agrees with me.

However: Sharia Law itself (as I understand it) does not advocate violence per se (although I realise that some of the punishments metered out are violent). More a form of settling disputes by religious ruling.