At Least 7 Dead, 12 Wounded in Shooting at Ft. Hood in Texas, page 55

reply to post by Hemisphere

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I am not sure the point you are trying to make or what you are advocating for my friend.

Personally I am of the opinion that all three faiths were invented at relatively the same point in time and meant to go hand in hand with one another to set the pretext for divide and conquer warfare where the people would basically conquer one another over these differences until one was left standing.

I have long felt the Dark Ages were imposed just to eradicated evidence to the contrary and get all three of these religions to take hold.

They probably all sprung up with in a hundred or so years of one another but were all written before any of them sprung up.

Most people are afraid to investigate that possibility in earnest and to deal with it for fear of loosing their deeply instilled illusions and the consequences of that.

I believe the principals on top of all these religions callude with one another towards this end.

That is all simply a show put on for our benefit as the masses and to manipulate us in the name of something we can't rebel directly against.

Personally I think it's all Caesars doing, and the luck of the draw as to where you were born and when deterimined which team you would be on.

I find it hard to hold that against the masses friend. Regardless of which Mass they belong too.

I do very much look forward to having a word with Caesar though.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

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You're purely speculating in this post. What a wonderful way to trash the New Testament!
The truth is that most of the people who accepted Jesus Christ as son of God and accepted him to be greater than Abraham (which in fact he was) were continuously prosecuted by both the Romans as well as the ancient hebrews. But no matter how many times they were prosecuted and killed more and more people took to christianity as it sounded more in attune to the truth. Finally it became so strong that rome had no other choice but to instate it as a state rule however they were a few details that were flawed in their version.
I did'nt want to go off topic but that post was an abomination.

reply to post by Protoplasmic Traveler

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Protoplasmic Traveler,

You make some very good points in your posts right up until you use the methods and rationale I quote here in my post.

Though Christians today who were born into what is a widely accepted religion tend to downplay the incredible violence and death that was needed to get people to adopt Christianity the reality is it took incredible violence and death to get people to adopt Christianity and these altered Old Testament teachings and additions.

Many Christians are incredibly ignorant of History and even Biblical History..a sad state of affairs but nonetheless true.
What is known but seldom taught in public schools or even by preachers today...is that no Christian has any such instruction to carry out such conduct from Bible sources. Any Preacher/Priest who carries out such doctrine is doing so from Sources outside the Bible. Christianity is not to be promoted by the Sword as is the case with many historical religions.
To do so means that this church is no longer Christian and disobedient..they have lost the candlestick. You will however...find this practice among pagan nations....the religion carried on and promoted by the sword. Many times a nation conquered were allowed to keep their religions and gods but must recognize the conquers and their gods as supreme.

You use Rome as the textbook pattern to represent all Christianity by default. It is not and never was so. There were in existence ...always...peoples and believers who never adhered to the practices of Rome. They are still here today. They did not accept Roman bibles nor translations.Septuagint, Codex B, or Codex Sinaiticus...all translations of the Old Testament from Classical Greek sources. Scholars know the Old Testament was in Hebrew. And this too changed depending on the centuries the books were written. Even the Hebrew language changed somewhat from the time of Job unto today.

New Testament was written in Koine Greek...the common Greek of the streets...not Classical Greek.

Nonetheless..there is no instruction from Jesus or his Disciples to carry the Religion forth by the sword. Converts are never to be made in this manner. You do however find this in Pagan histories and conquerings.

This is why I make immediate notice when someone tries to use or misuse Rome as a textbook default to represent all of Christianity...to play through unquestioned and unchallenged. Rome is a continuation of Pagan principles of conquerings and conversions by the sword or burning stake.
Totally contrary to what is taught as the proper conduct of a church in the New Testament. Very much the doublespeak of another dominant religion/dogma practiced today....Politics.

I will remind you also that Islam founded in some 600 AD was by the 700s AD...conquering and subjecting into Europe and by 732AD was stopped at Tours, France by Charles Martel...some 300 years before any Crusade. This can be found on the web...the Battle of Tours.

Amazing to me how much bad onus is put on Christianity by using a counterfeit default setting called Rome...and then totally ignoring that the Muslims were on the move less than 100 years after their beginning and Conquering by the Sword into Europe before being stopped at Tours, France in 732AD.
It was Centuries later when they decided to try it again and go the other way into Europe by way of Constantinople and upward before they were stopped by Vlad Dracula in Eastern Europe..with lots of politics and intrigues surrounding these events.

Amazing what is missing from much of history and I don't think it is accidental...but deliberate.

Nonetheless there is no such instruction in Christianity to carry out an inquisition or a crusade. Any such church is disobedient and now operating as a counterfeit..if they ever were Christian at all.

Islam on the other hand ...just like Rome has in it the tools to spread the religion by the sword.

In Islam they use the Old and new testaments..but often go by a second set of books and like papal bulls..the fatwas of the religious leaders. Books like the Hadith.

Among Jews they pay lip service to the Old Testament but many switch for actual practices to the Talmud. The Talmud like the Hadith is a commentary ..allowing much conduct which is not allowed in the Old Testament. They are rules and commentaries for breaking the rules...you must follow the rules for breaking the rules.
Most outsiders do not understand such concepts.
Among Catholics Mentalist Reservatus is a way of getting around such rules..but you must follow the rules for doing so.

This is also what was done by a recent president.''I did not have sex with that girl." Mentalist Reservatus..mental reservation.
Most peoples have never heard of such a thing..and have no reason to think this way. ...but there are people out here for whom this is an important tool in their religious dogma. The question is what is the nature of this religion.

en.wikipedia.org...

Mormons are Talmudic...you can quote the bible but it is possible like Hebrews to treat a Saint differently from a non Saint... the non saint is not to catch on to what is happening. They begin in the bible but switch to their Talmud...the Book of Mormon.

Is this also not what Islam allows under certain conditions...the tax on non Muslims for being allowed practicing their non Muslim religion and other such dogmas. In similar vein to the RC church and their treatment of heretics.

Christians have no such instruction to carry out such conduct. Their instruction concerning this is to separate from them..come out from amongst them and be ye separate.

Yet you use Rome as a Christian default setting to represent all of Christianity when it is obviously and historically not so.
I dont think you even notice this pattern of your conduct ..it is so ingrained by logic and reason. It is just not what is in the history when one knows the difference.

The reality is though still to this day the Jews themselves reject all of the New Testament because they don't believe Jesus was the Son of G-d but a heretic and that the disciples who later wrote these additional passages and modifications to the Old Testament were heretics too.

Murdered by who and at the instruction of whom?? Christians have no such instruction to do this. Read the history again. Also check this history against John Fox and his Blood of Martyrs and what is recorded there.

Once again when you know the instruction for a Christian Church and contrast this with the historical records of men you see a huge gulf. Check again your source for this wide gulf in conduct.

Basically the New Testament was forced onto people who worshiped different G-d’s the other existing pagan G-d’s but could not be forced upon the Jews who would not and could not accept that G-d legitimately dictated it.

No such instruction to do this conduct. Not there in the New Testament.

While the Jews have for the most part remained passive in this protest it is a testament to their own conviction that many willingly and stoically accepted death rather than adopt the principals of Christianity.

Check this out carefully today..There are a growing number of Messianic Jews in what is today called Israel. It is begining to pose a problem for the Israeli government and its religious leaders.
They have some real problems in what is today called Israel..and much of this is carefully hidden and concealed from Westerners. One of them is that the average Israeli today is more socialist and atheist than devout Hebrew under the Old Testament. They are also more Talmudic than Old Testament. Most Americans haven't a clue about this.
True ..they don't particularly like Christians but find them useful for their purposes. They also don't like or trust the Muslims. Strange position for them to be in. Strange.

The alliance that exists between Jews the original source of the Religion and Christians one stepped removed from that source is one of politics and in reality fairly recent politics.

I agree with you in this above quote ..just as is our relationship to the Muslims...from the religion and dogma of Politics...not from Christianity per se. Lots of false manipulation going on here all around. Most of the public hasn't a clue.
You will often here me referring to politics as a religion...and not the religion advertised. Politics is very Talmudic. A system for the insiders verses a system for the outsiders. A dual standard of conduct...just like Rome.

And Islam is nothing more than a Talmudic version..a Muslim Talmudic version..no separation of church and state here. Just like Rome.

I agree with a lot of what you post...but make a historical distinction here.
Things are not quite as advertised in history. Particularly as pertains to religions.



Thanks,
Orangetom










[edit on 8-11-2009 by orangetom1999]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

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Thanks for the condensation, interesting take. I on the other hand am of the opinion that the PTB are more using what has been presented to them but I can see your line of thinking. That would explain why the Exodus is not recorded in Egypt. Wow, I thought my take was conspiratorial enough!

From the days of Flavius Josephus (c.70 CE) until the present, historians have tried to find some trace of this event in the ancient records of Egypt. They have had little luck.

According to biblical chronology, the Exodus took place in the 890th year before the destruction of the Temple by the Babylonians in 421 BCE (g.a.d. 587 BCE) [1]. This was 1310 BCE (g.a.d. 1476 BCE). In this year, the greatest warlord Egypt ever knew, Thutmose III, deposed his aunt Hatshepsut and embarked on a series of conquests, extending the Egyptian sphere of influence and tribute over Israel and Syria and crossing the Euphrates into Mesopotamia itself. While it is interesting that this date actually saw the death of an Egyptian ruler - and there have been those who tried to identify Queen Hatshepsut as the Pharaoh of the Exodus - the power and prosperity of Egypt at this time is hard to square with the biblical account of the Exodus.

Some historians have been attracted by the name of the store-city Raamses built by the Israelites before the Exodus. They have drawn connections to the best known Pharaoh of that name, Ramses II, or Ramses the Great, and set the Exodus around his time, roughly 1134 BCE (g.a.d. 1300 BCE [2]). In order to do this, they had to reduce the time between the Exodus and the destruction of the Temple by 180 years, which they did by reinterpreting the 480 years between the Exodus and the building of the Temple (I Kings 6:1) as twelve generations of forty years. By "correcting" the Bible and setting a generation equal to twenty five years, these imaginary twelve generations become 300 years.

Aside from the fact that such "adjustments" of the biblical text imply that the Bible cannot be trusted, in which case there is no reason to accept that there ever was an Exodus, Ramses II was a conqueror second only to Thutmose III. And as in the case of Thutmose III, the Egyptian records make it clear that nothing even remotely resembling the Exodus happened anywhere near his time of history. - excerpted from an article published in the Spring 1995 issue of Jewish Action

The entire piece posted here:

The Exodus and Ancient Egyptian Records

We both agree that these faiths are being used against the faithful by the powerful. Occupied with each other and ignorant of the mechanism. Are there Islamic principals capable of the collusion you describe? The Saudis? I think it's just too splintered.

And so the faithful are once again embroiled over the actions and reasoning of this one man and those in power will use this. Is it any wonder Reid and Pelosi's wishes came true in the midst of this? Health bill, swine flu, Afghanistan decisions, extension of unemployment, march on the capital, off year elections and so much more. Has there been a more distracting time news wise since 9/11?

Originally posted by CuteAngel
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

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You're purely speculating in this post. What a wonderful way to trash the New Testament!
The truth is that most of the people who accepted Jesus Christ as son of God and accepted him to be greater than Abraham (which in fact he was) were continuously prosecuted by both the Romans as well as the ancient hebrews. But no matter how many times they were prosecuted and killed more and more people took to christianity as it sounded more in attune to the truth. Finally it became so strong that rome had no other choice but to instate it as a state rule however they were a few details that were flawed in their version.
I did'nt want to go off topic but that post was an abomination.

What a wonderful story for all ages my friend! I bet you actually believe it too! Rome was forced to institute Christianity? The Romans thought it sheer madness. It was a slave’s cult seized upon by a bankrupt empire to forego the cost of bread and circuses.

Yes it's true according to legend many Christians were targeted and made to be scapegoats by Nero for a fire that destroyed nearly 3/5ths of the city.

He chose the Christians for this role because Romans saw no virtue in a cult that espoused turning the other cheek, being pious and charitable and morally virtuous. These things were the antitheist of every thing Rome and Romans stood for.

Christians meeting their death stoically did impress the Romans that many espoused stoicism as a philosophy. It didn’t impress them enough to give up their orgies, luxuries and desire for bread and circuses courtesy of the state though.

Justinian in a legendary epiphany dreamt the night before a crucial battle with the Western Emperor and his half of the Empire’s troops was alleged to have been told by G-d if he converted and painted the sign of the cross on his Eastern Empire’s troops they would be victorious in the battle.

Having won the Battle either through gratitude or to further a newly discovered form of propaganda he began to expand the concept of Christianity and to begin tailoring it to his Eastern Empire’s specific political needs. Emperor Constantine with the aid of St. Augustus a converted Gnostic began to develop the concept of the City of G-d and then eventually called together an Ecumenical Council of several hundred participants to write a formal religion out of amongst other things John, Paul and Ringo’s letters written in Greek who were in Greece writing the Sgt. Peppers Lonely Heart’s Club Band album at the same time. The three hundred some odd participants of the Ecumenical Council that wrote the New Testament where not the Beetles but onto something almost as popular called Christianity, which because many of the people being asked to contribute were Gnostics, Hindus, followers of Sun Cults and Egyptian Deities and other Middle Eastern Deities, Grecian and Roman deities all collaborated together to come up with something almost as popular as the White Album.

Trust me the Roman’s were not thrilled that there was to be no more gladiatorial sport, no circuses, no free bread, and no orgies and frankly I don’t blame them! Ultimately it took the city of Rome being sacked by the Goths and a few generations of deteriorating economic conditions and continued violence between the Western and the Eastern Empire for Romans to accept it as a State religion which heralded in the Dark Ages and not an era of light and prosperity.

I am not here sharing this to insult you or your faith, but the reality is Biblical History and actual recorded History differs drastically on what really transpired.

I must thank you for in part you have demonstrated that unlike contemporary historians with differing theories on events don’t become insulted and condemn one another, when you throw in that religious equation to where it challenges a religious person’s view on History contrary to what they have been taught to take on faith in the Bible it tends to yield a very nasty and also very Roman thumbs down!

That’s what the closed universe of faith based religion often yields, even when archeological evidence, subsequently discovered writings from the period and a huge body of actual real physical evidence contradict what’s in a religious text, it becomes all about blasphemy! How dare anyone challenge what’s in the Bible that has been revised 113 times after the printing press was invented alone and before that copied and written in hand! One must have absolute faith in their religious texts and nothing should ever be allowed to controvert it or disagree with it.

What’s more as a non-religious person I absolutely believe you are entitled to your opinion no matter how erroneous it might be. As a devout believer you can’t tolerate that, you can’t speak to the real issue here of how religion might have factored into a crucial current event, instead what you have done is show how for the devoutly religious the only thing that matters is your religion and it must never be questioned.

This is the problem that’s causing all this violence.

People who are so willing to take what was written a long, long time ago on sheer faith alone, for the reality is that actual History does not support your biblical version no matter how nice a story it is, it’s just a story.

Kind of like Cinderella except with some floods and famines and plaques and a little battle called Armageddon that people with closed minds are rapidly heading for.

Deep down though you are a good Roman and the thumbs down displays that! Caesar appreciates your loyalty.

reply to post by mmiichael

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mmiichael,

I am going to tell you a secret which is actually out in the open such that most peoples..even so called Believers or Christians dont seem to grasp it.

Christians or Believers...have always been a minority ..surrounded by the Wildlife of this world. Those who dont like them.

It was so with the Hebrews in the Olde Testament days as well. They were surrounded by nations which did not like them and plotted their demise.
Todays Believers are no different and even coming under more and more open attack...even by our leaders. Seperation of Church and State?? Or is politics in fact the new religion. The religion of "reasonable " men.

Fiscal Responsibility is in fact Biblical. This should tell even the Unbelievers much about the nature of the religion of politics.

I am going to greatly disagree with you in this quote of your last statement.

Few can or with to carry their entire ancestral history with them every waking moment. People learn new things, develop, change. They are most often the sum of their personal experiences, not the writings of others in the dim past. We have to be thankful for that.

I am not thankful for this of what you state here. I know so many people who know more about the next piece of junk to come down the non evolutionary pipeline of sales and merchandizing than the people from whom they decended. Or even the history of thier nation..much less the history of any other nation.

I know so many people who cannot describe a concept or moral precept outside of some movie or television program they have watched. Thier thoughts and emotions are someone elses emotions/thoughts. Their values someone elses. They define themselves by the products they consume and believe themselves entitled to this. Many of them their personal experiences are second hand experiences...and they dont even know it. That is what is amazing to me. They are living television/movie/gadget lives.
The younger they are the more they seem to be on this treadmill. And today many of them are becoming our leaders...with just such transient values and thinking...entitlement beliefs.

I would suspect that this person ..Hasan at Fort Hood...knew more about his family lineage than most Americans today. Also more about his spiritual lineage than do most of us. I also suspect that the conflict between the two caused him great stress...when dealing with so many living in the fast food lane of life...combined with what the Army was requiring of him.
As a result the Army seems to have a problem with thier screening process. It is going to be interesting to see how they PC this one into neutralizing it.

As I stated here on page 50 of this thread

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is the altar at which many many Americans get their views and thinking. Their sense of reality. And I am not thankful for it.

Orangetom

reply to post by Hemisphere

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Thanks for the condensation, interesting take. I on the other hand am of the opinion that the PTB are more using what has been presented to them but I can see your line of thinking. That would explain why the Exodus is not recorded in Egypt. Wow, I thought my take was conspiratorial enough!

The Powers that Be are all members of Roman Institutions, Knights of Rome or nobles of Rome and act on Rome’s behalf. I don’t believe the Roman Empire ever went out of business friend. I believe it went underground to protect its principals and ensure it’s survival as well as success. They simply developed a covert form of divide and conquer warfare where people nationalities and religious differences could be exploited to have them slowly but surely eliminate one another and to create a permanent state of warfare where eventually a one world government would be seen by the war weary people as the only real way to end war.

While the individual nations are contractually bound through Treaties to Rome the people themselves aren’t aware of it and rather than fight against Rome fight against one another out of national pride, and easily exploited religious differences.

Yes the powers that be do try to make events mimic biblical philosophy but in my humble opinion that is not an opportunistic idea that they seized upon randomly but that the various religious texts were written especially for conditioning the people to events that were prophesized through them so that once again instead of fighting against Rome they would accept this as the inevitable decision by a G-d that they can’t fight against either.

They can’t fight back against Rome because Rome (not the Vatican) itself is hidden in the shadows orchestrating the events through the Powers that Be that of course are quite wealthy as a result of their lofty position and responsibility towards the empire.

The trilogy of religious branches based off the same G-d all written to go hand in hand with the other create the classic both sides against the middle form of divide and conquer warfare and that is exactly what you have.

The Israelis exploit the similarities between Judaism and Christianity while downplaying the differences to manipulate the Christians into protecting them against the Muslims who they constantly agitate through their collective and deliberate actions, all the while illustrating constantly for the Christians the differences between Christianity and Islam and highlighting them in over exaggerated ways. They constantly bait the Muslims in ways that Islamic reactions to in fact highlight the differences further. The Muslims of course more or less have to go through the Christians in order to actually get to the Israelis that bait them. This ends up tending to place great emphasis on the differences between Christianity and Islam in even more demonstrable ways. The Powers that Be
and the Israelis simply work to create the perception that it is simply the differences in the Religions alone that is
causing the Muslims to react to how they are bated and then persecuted as a result.

One side manipulates the Christians into a confrontational stance; the other side overtly attacks the Christians for taking that confrontational stance.

Once these three religions basically eliminate one another through all the divisiveness and violence then a one world government without divisiveness can be introduced along Communist/Capitalist lines like we have seen the Powers that Be rapidly grow in China. One world government will be the mix of an authoritarian totalitarian police state with capitalist incentives and additional freedoms for being productive and greater freedoms and luxuries for the managers and security with a dictatorial leadership at top.

My friend mmichael chides me for reverse engineering history to create a conspiracy based on paranoia and imagination for imagination sakes. He believes that all events are just random by people out for as much power and control as they can individually acquire. Many other people favor a Powers that Be conspiracy like your self where they are just being opportunistic by mimicking biblical philosophy. Of course the truly religious see it all as part of G-d’s grand plan with humans just inevitably succumbing to their pre-ordained weaknesses.

I though think it’s Rome all along that designed everything to go down just the way it is by devising a covert strategy to ensure it’s eventual success that would never expose it directly to the masses before it was too late.

The bad news I fear is we will be finding out who is right or wrong in relatively short order.

Events like have happened at Fort Hood certainly don’t slow things down friend.

reply to post by orangetom1999

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I appreciate you taking the time to share with me the things you did. First let me say I respect that people have a need for faith and a need to believe something greater than humans alone is involved in shaping life and human kind’s destiny.

To me though the reality is no matter how much of a purist one is going through these texts and writings that comprise the various gospels and laws that people in the religions founded by Abraham follow that there is always an element of political exploitation involved.

For the sake of our discussion let’s call that Rome.

For instance nothing in the Bible told or suggested to Conquistadors when they discovered indigenous Central Americans committing mass ritualized human sacrifice to put an end to that practice. It was their individual and collective Christian based morality though that caused them to conclude that they should put an end to that practice even if it meant exterminating the people as they tried to convert them to the Christian faith.

Ultimately the Pope did weigh in on the matter as the Spaniards were Roman Catholics and a member state of the Holy Roman Empire at the time, and the Pope did tell them it was their Christian duty to convert these people and to end their non-Christian practices.

Did the Bible tell them to do this? No you are right it absolutely did not. Did their morality formed through Christian doctrine cause them to feel as individual and collective human beings to do this? Yes it did.

Often what’s in the book is not as important as the fact that people’s belief in the book binds them together in a common and shared belief and purpose and this often allows for them to be exploited in their G-d’s name even through it wasn’t written in the Bible and no near by burning bush told them to do this.

It’s usually a man or woman that tells them it’s their duty as good Christians to do this or that holding out that bit of added validation or absolution to motivate them as Christians to sometimes do some terribly un-Christian things.

One of the powers of people operating in a closed mindset/universe based on spirituality or morality put forth to them and instilled in them through religion is it’s very possible to anticipate how such like minded and affiliated people are likely to respond to certain circumstances.

It becomes much easier then to manipulate events that are bound to provoke an emotional reaction based on a shared spirituality or morality. When an additional or outside authority then extols people either through the priestly class or the ruling political class ‘it’s the Christian thing to do’ that bit of manipulation that is both flattering and challenging often does become compelling to them. Whether it was countering the G-dless communist horde, or bring the ‘true word’ to some pagan isolated culture on some tropical island G-d’s incredible desire in every sporting team’s locker room around the world to want them to win, pre-cast and predictable religious mindsets are exploitable by people who can make some very un-Christian things to do seem very Christian simply by using their own vested authority to evoke the G-d like George Bush claiming “G-d told me when I was walking in the Rose Garden to free Iraq”…After all it’s the Christian thing to do.

It’s often what is not in the book that leads to this exploitation of a people who in large part can be read like a book because they all read the same book!

My point being is what’s in the books and isn’t in the books often as little to do with it. What does have a lot to do with it is when the political ruling class or the priestly ruling class decides to exploit people of religion by extorting them to do things that they ‘should’ want to do and recognize a ‘responsibility’ to do based on the religion.

The religious themselves often like taking advantage of the validation and absolution they feel that some acts carried out through this type of exploitation is then afforded them by the political or priestly class to then look at their books and parse words. It says here, it doesn’t say there, theirs says or doesn’t say, is all neither rather here nor there in my humble opinion.

What is important in my humble opinion that people already indoctrinated on the concept of accepting G-d and their religion on sheer faith alone become much more susceptible to political and priestly exploitation based on taking their edicts, suppositions and conclusions on sheer faith alone as well.

As far as Christians go, I truly admire the Amish, those people know how to read a book and follow it to the letter.
No arguing about what it means, and they don’t let other people exploit them as far as the fact that they believe in the book to convince them it’s the Christian thing to do something that the Book forbids. They simply follow what the book says, in other words I won’t judge whether the indigenous Central Americans are wrong for sacrificing their brothers and sisters in blood ritual, it’s G-d’s place to do that and his place to decide what to do about it.

The parsing word crowd though will judge and act and then later seek forgiveness and absolution based on parsing words or the fact that the Priestly Class or the Political Class said it was OK.

Personally I believe the real Christians hailed from England and it was a Celtic/Druid sect that Rome took great care to stamp out.

Yes Islam overtly spread through violence initially they were quite committed to it. You are quite correct about that.

However I do feel I am quite correct in my assertion that all religions are easily manipulated by politics in large part because the main concept and reward of religion is validation and absolution by G-d and eternal punishment or reward for achieving that validation and absolution through doing some things on sheer faith alone and accepting some things on sheer faith alone and that is exactly what good and bad governments alike prefer their citizens to do in following the laws they make and the policies they formulate on sheer faith alone in exchange for absolution for not challenging the state.

When governments get bad and corrupt often they are still followed and not challenged by the religious who simply say “it’s a sign of the times, prophecies are coming true”!

In other words they often seek absolution through abdication based on faith alone in ways that judging by the state of today’s world isn’t necessarily wise.

Often when someone like me speaks to religion the automatic assumption is that I am for someone else’s religion or favor it and I am not. I am not and will not try to judge who is guiltier or less guilty of religious manipulation.

Often people see this as me being anti-religious, I am not, I favor people’s right to worship what ever they want but to keep it separated from politics. Organize religion loves to corrupt the political process for the sake of religious morality and favor, and politics love to corrupt organize religion for the sake of power and influence.

I would like to see the world solve its social and economic problems but religion despite the many charitable works religion and the religious do often complicate and confound that because of the need that validation and absolution create in the religiously minded. No Christian could ever think the path to redemption and heaven lies through anything but Christianity just as no Muslim imagines that same path lies through Judaism. The need to validate one’s religion by convincing every other religion as well as the non religious is overwhelming and intrusive to the point of prevalent violence in that regard. To that self defeating extent all religions tend to be part of the problem and while they imagine they are all singularly part of the solution the reality is it’s that singular desire for their individual religion to be likewise the singular path towards a solution that exasperates and complicates solving the social economic and political problems.

This of course just invites believers to start saying what’s in their book, and what’s not in their book, and what’s in someone else’s books.

Honestly I really don’t care! War, poverty, violence and intolerance of others really annoys and perturbs me and it just serves to aggravate me further when no one wants to be responsible and passes the buck on to the other guy because they have a different book.

I hope you can at least basically understand where I am coming from even if it’s not altogether appreciated that I come from there.

Yes there are some Jews who believe Jesus really was the Son of G-d. Yes it makes sense they wouldn’t full prescribe to Christianity either since they are Hebrews with a twist. No offense but I am hearing more Hebrews who believe in Christ pop up online as of late and it tends to just make me feel from a political standpoint as the stage draws near when Hebrews are going to need to truly count on the alliance and support of Christians in the conflict that both Islam and the Jews keep pushing see more similarities between Hebrew and Christian sects and never focus on the differences especially those that do exist in Talmudic Law.

That’s all politics in my humble opinion and where I am coming from is all politics, I don’t want to see any one side win, I want to see every side win. I don’t want to see any one side loose, I don’t want anyone to loose.

I don’t want to look for excuses for war and death and destruction and why it might be a good thing.

I want to look for ways for people to truly learn to tolerate and accept each other and their differing views in a lasting and meaningful peace in something that just couldn’t be a bad thing.

Yeah I am a dreamer! Life is after all a dream and I sure wish people would stop trying so hard

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

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ProtoplasmicTraveler,

To me though the reality is no matter how much of a purist one is going through these texts and writings that comprise the various gospels and laws that people in the religions founded by Abraham follow that there is always an element of political exploitation involved.

This is today sometimes expressed as Hegelian Dialectic..or sometimes under the religion of politics..."The State is God."

Another version of this in times past is called "Divine Right of Kings."
In the Western World this was put to death with the Beheading of King Charles 1st by the Puritans and Oliver Cromwell in 1649. The English Civil War etc.

For the sake of our discussion let’s call that Rome.

My limited understanding of this is that Rome has competition in this field.
What this group...or groups do not do is hang out their laundry for the profane public to see. Rome has groups who don't like them and this has been going on for over a thousand years. There has even been problems in Rome itself with different factions disagreeing with their hierarchy...The Society of Jesus for example and their Black Popes in bed with the Sandinistas in Central America. Liberation Theology. Very interesting relationship. How many Jesuit Colleges do we have here in America. Loyola University, Georgetown, Loyola Marymount??

There is no other factor outside of religion which will determine the economic status or prosperity of a nation. None. The religion of a nation will be almost the sole determining factor of how a nations economic prosperity does.

Often what’s in the book is not as important as the fact that people’s belief in the book binds them together in a common and shared belief and purpose and this often allows for them to be exploited in their G-d’s name even through it wasn’t written in the Bible and no near by burning bush told them to do this.

You have a problem here in this quote above. That problem is that in the RCC...knowing the bible and what was in there was not big on the agenda for Roman Catholics. Church and obedience to the Mother Church was the dogma taught. Most people could not read and were read to or quoted to by the priesthood without any mechanism to check up on if the priesthood was telling them the truth or not. This is true today among many believers who do not check up on their pastors or priests. I call them Rice Christians. They tend to go where the rice bowel is the fullest. As long as it is full and pretty ..they are happy no matter how dumb it is. Christianity is not the only religion afflicted with this kind of nonsense.

It’s usually a man or woman that tells them it’s their duty as good Christians to do this or that holding out that bit of added validation or absolution to motivate them as Christians to sometimes do some terribly un-Christian things.

A knowledgeable Christian knows better than this. They read their Bible and check up on what is said and taught. No priest or pastor can save you...or me. We do not also save ourselves. Hence added validation or absolution is nonsense in this. Preachers get tired of trying this on me when they sense that I am what is called Sovereign Grace...not free will. They quickly leave me alone in this because most preachers are free will.
More Christians need to be Salty ..not sugary and sweet...we are the salt of the Earth not the sugar.

One of the powers of people operating in a closed mindset/universe based on spirituality or morality put forth to them and instilled in them through religion is it’s very possible to anticipate how such like minded and affiliated people are likely to respond to certain circumstances.

You are also describing politics here. And politics pays for and finances public education. What religion is the body politic instilling in our people in order to get an anticipatory response in people..especially people with mostly a television/movie education....in emotions.

With an education of this type could you guarantee how an emotionally educated drama queen or train wreck is going to vote in the voting booth??
How about with drama queens or train wrecks educated in entitlement belief systems??

You have another problem here in this quote...

It becomes much easier then to manipulate events that are bound to provoke an emotional reaction based on a shared spirituality or morality.

Indeed it does. There is a problem here. This is not a dictum of Christianity. We are not to become emotional train wrecks or drama queens under Christian disciplines. We are not to give into our baser passions.
You will find this practice and dogma in Occult/Pagan religions. This is a very significant difference to those who know the pattern. I am very wary of overly emotional peoples. Undisciplined peoples.
What you are also describing in your post or quote above is the baser nature of politics..and once again..the body politic pays for and finances public education...which is rapidly becoming a television/movie education..in emotional grooming. This is Paganism..not Christian.
However..also sadly ..not many believers are schooled in this knowledge.

It’s often what is not in the book that leads to this exploitation of a people who in large part can be read like a book because they all read the same book!

One needs be careful here as this is often a fingerprint of counterfeit doctrines or paganism infiltrating and overtaking Christian teachings in substitution. This is also Occult..in that this substitution is in secret and without the knowledge of most peoples. Talmud is just such a substitution.
This substitution/counterfeit can be found in the Bible if one knows where to look. Talmud is not part of the Olde Testament instructions to Hebrews nor instructions to Christians in the New Testament.

However I do feel I am quite correct in my assertion that all religions are easily manipulated by politics in large part because the main concept and reward of religion is validation and absolution by G-d and eternal punishment or reward for achieving that validation and absolution through doing some things on sheer faith alone and accepting some things on sheer faith alone and that is exactly what good and bad governments alike prefer their citizens to do in following the laws they make and the policies they formulate on sheer faith alone in exchange for absolution for not challenging the state.

Good grief ProtoplasmicTraveler!!! You are describing GFW Hegel's dictum..."the state is god." Do you realize this?? This is not separation of church and state..but the state becoming a church ..and you are back to Rome again?? Or Islam. They simply use the state and the power of the state to hide their religion...politics/power.

Is this not one of the problems with Islamic natons..no separation.

Oh..by the way...I don't agree with conditions here in the USA where people can deduct their tithing and giving to the church on their taxes. This is not separation. It is a tax subsidy..a price support on the part of the state with the silent agreement of the Churches. This is not separation of church and state. It is a mockery of Separation of Church and state and going on right under our noses. Church and state are in bed together.
Churches should never have a tax number or another word for it is a state corporation number. They should be independent of the state.
This is a farce going on here.. a counterfeit...Occult...hidden from the view..concealed from most peoples...and no matter what the religion...they should be separate.

You have a problem ProtoplasmicTraveler..in that Humanism..also a religion ..does not seem to be able to solve these problems as well. It too falls way short. All our education..higher learning..etc ..does not seem to be able to solve these problems or history.

I for one do not believe in the Humanism concept of peace. I think it is a counterfeit...world peace. It is Occult in its teachings and beliefs.

Islam itself teaches this Peace be unto you. Yet history shows another example under Islam unto this day.
Obviously there was a huge gulf between the peaceful religion and what the Army was requiring of this individual at Fort Hood.

Well..good luck in this ProtoplasmicTraveler. Oh ..by the way..I too admire the Amish as well..for their independence and backbone in separating from the world and its high speed fast food lane ways.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Fort Hood gunman had told US military colleagues that infidels should have their throats cut
Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the gunman who killed 13 at America's Fort Hood military base, once gave a lecture to other doctors in which he said non-believers should be beheaded and have boiling oil poured down their throats.


www.telegraph.co.uk... roats-cut.html

He also told colleagues at America's top military hospital that non-Muslims were infidels condemned to hell who should be set on fire. The outburst came during an hour-long talk Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, gave on the Koran in front of dozens of other doctors at Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in Washington DC, where he worked for six years before arriving at Fort Hood in July.
One Army doctor who knew him said a fear of appearing discriminatory against a Muslim soldier had stopped fellow officers from filing formal complaints.

Another, Dr Val Finnell, who took a course with him in 2007 at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Maryland, did complain about Hasan's "anti-American rants." He said: "The system is not doing what it's supposed to do. He at least should have been confronted about these beliefs, told to cease and desist, and to shape up or ship out. I really questioned his loyalty."

Selena Coppa, an activist for Iraq Veterans Against the War, said: "This man was a psychiatrist and was working with other psychiatrists every day and they failed to notice how deeply disturbed someone right in their midst was."

reply to post by JJay55

---

So you work in the "crisis management."field I can't help but notice what a windfall this shooting is for people in your line of work with the general public beginning to ask just how necessary it is to use taxpayer money to fund and to increase the power of counter terrorism agencies you guys were looking to take a major financial hit and out of the blue a fanatic Muslim attacks some random soldiers.Funny how these things seem to happen...

[edit on 023030p://3726 by mike dangerously]

reply to post by earlywatcher

---

yeah i think youre all over this one the media has kind of left a few holes in their coverage they do make it sound like he was in the infantry and upon landing he would have to break out his aka and start shooting all of his muslim buddies may be after his 8 yr psych degree he thought he was going to have to go over there and listen to pavlovs dogs barking at him again i didnt know that some of pavlovs dogs were muslim

reply to post by mmiichael

---

I sure hope you guys are joking!

You in particular, mm, I have reason to suspect you ought to be in a position to realize she ain't ever been within 10 miles of anything "anti-terrorist"!

JJ might have some sort of "emergency management" claim, as in FEMA or the like, but certainly not in any sort of operational or planning capacity. The mindset to effectively deal with that sort of work just hasn't been displayed. Secretarial, maybe.

Near as I can tell, her sole purpose in coming in here was to start an anti-islamic tirade, not very well informed, either, as I've pointed out SEVERAL times now, and use these soldier's deaths together with a boatload of false "information" as a means to promote her agenda, then deflect and derail into a religious philosophical discussion when she got called on it to put up or shut up.

Meanwhile, soldiers lay dead in Texas, and opportunists are climbing the bodies like soapboxes in order to promote even MORE violence against innocents.

Anyone that knows me knows I've got no problem x-ing out folks that need it, but this wholesale targetting of entire populations just because one is too fearful to educate ones self in the issues... that truly sickens me. That's not what I dodged bullets to protect.

I gotta ask myself if those dead soldiers would have been proud of the way their deaths were invalidated, and all but ignored (except as tools) by some, in the headlong rush to promote an agenda condemning people, individuals, who had nothing to do with the deaths.

I don't know. I didn't know them, don't know what they'd think. All I know is that most of the soldiers I've known were men of honor, and would have been just as appalled as I was at those unwarranted actions.

Anyhow, I'm done with it. All of my suggestions, questions, and challenges have been ignored, as would be necessary if one had nothing to back themselves up with, and were merely spouting out inaccuracies knowingly. Anyone doing so UNKNOWINGLY would have at least TRIED to back up the errors, or been honest enough to verify their information.

Seriously, you guys were just jerking chains now, right?


[edit on 2009/11/9 by nenothtu]

[edit on 2009/11/9 by nenothtu]

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic

---

Maybe he just went nuts? It happens.

I worry about the fear, loathing and paranoia on all sides that this event will cause. And I extend my sympathies to the victims and their families.

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