Obama pledge to Native Americans , page 5
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reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 03:58 PM by apacheman
reply to post by nixie_nox


It does seem that some small progress is being made, I'll grant you that. But it seems to me that the differences are a matter of degree, not kind. Sort of like turning the heat under the kettle down to merely extremely uncomfortable from boiling.

I'll acknowledge a change in kind when Obama, or any president, or federal official, or member of Congress opens negotiations to restore full and complete independence. The British empire managed to divest itself of its conquered lands after WWII without ceasing to exist as a nation. Why can't the US follow suit? It remains the nearly the last country (Canada springs to mind) on the planet to hold other peoples in subjugation after military conquest. And not just one nation, either. It must hold some sort of record for the number of seperate nations held under one thumb. Only an American can lump as many diverse peoples into one single category and then dismiss their valid cries for freedom with a condescending "get over it".


reply posted on 7-11-2009 @ 11:54 PM by LordBucket
reply to post by apacheman



Where would the Jews be if they had that attitude?
For sure not in Israel.


Perhaps. But wherever they lived, they wouldn't still be angry and bitter after 6000 years.


I choose to work for the freedom and independence of
my people and all First Nations. I will never, ever give up.


There was once a deer herd that liked to sing and dance amongst the trees. One day, a wolf pack arrived and slaughtered half the herd to eat. But these wolves not only hungry, but cruel. After eating half the herd, they then slaughtered half of the remaining deer and left them to rot amongst the trees.

The deer fought back in anger, but the wolves were stronger, and yet another half of those who remained were killed in the fight. The survivors spoke with the wolves and negotiated a truce in which they agreed that the wolves would leave the remaining deer alone to sing and dance amongst the trees they loved.

The following day the wolves changed their mind and moved into the forest themselves, displacing the deer, and killing a few stragglers in the process.

Two centuries later, the descendant of those deer live in new forests. Some of them have learned new songs, new dances. And some have not. Some want the wolves to allow them to return to their original forest so that they may sing their original songs and dance their original dances.

And some of us recognize that we do not need the permission of the wolf to sing and dance as we choose.


reply posted on 8-11-2009 @ 12:09 AM by whaaa
Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by apacheman



Where would the Jews be if they had that attitude?
For sure not in Israel.


Perhaps. But wherever they lived, they wouldn't still be angry and bitter after 6000 years.


Do you think the Jews have forgiven the Nazi's? It's been almost 70 years.
Time to forgive the murder of 6 million? Not now!! Not ever!!



reply posted on 8-11-2009 @ 12:27 AM by apacheman
reply to post by LordBucket


Never heard anyone call my people deer, lol. A lot of other things: wolves, cougars, demons, devils, but never deer.

You forget that the US didn't win simply by superior force of arms. They won by using techniques that are outlawed by every civilized nation today:

www1.american.edu...

images.indymedia.org...

www.buffalofieldcampaign.org...

In the 1870s, more buffalo were killed than in any other decade in history. The three years of 1872, '73, and '74 were the worst. According to one buffalo hunter, who based his calculations on first-hand accounts and shipping records, 4.5 million buffalo were slaughtered in that three year period alone (Mayer, 87). Influenced by forces discussed above, the U.S. government pursued a policy to eradicate the buffalo and thereby extinguish the Indians' very sustenance, forcing them onto reservations.


74.125.113.132...:7hfCaR72eJUJ:www.criticalanimalstudies.org/JCAS/Journal_Articles_download/Issue_5/lewis.doc+strychnine+slaughter+ wolves+great+plains&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=opera

www.pbs.org...

That list only covers a little of the environmental/ecological warfare waged by the US,just in one phase and one area; it doesn't touch on the direct biowarfare or the full scope.

If the US had fought in a civilized manner, they'd still be fighting. But they were, and are, amongst the most ruthless cultures ever spawned on the planet. Add to the ruthlessness an utter disregard for keeping their word...

It seems to me that a lot of Americans think our losses were our own fault for believing the treaties in the first place, for taking the Americans at their word and expecting them to keep it.


reply posted on 8-11-2009 @ 01:50 AM by LordBucket
reply to post by whaaa



Do you think the Jews have forgiven the Nazi's? It's been almost 70 years.
Time to forgive the murder of 6 million? Not now!! Not ever!!


Before the nazis it was the czar. Before the czar it was the pograms. Before the pograms was an entire history of thousands of years of persecution all the way back to Egypt. Thew jews have built an entire history out of persecution and suffering.

I would not choose to emulate them.


Not ever!!


Ask yourself what might be the consequences of holding anger in your heart...forever.


reply posted on 8-11-2009 @ 01:54 AM by LordBucket
reply to post by apacheman



If the US had fought in a civilized manner, they'd still be fighting.


But they didn't. They are, like I suggested, wolves. You cannot reason with a wolf. You cannot expect a wolf to honor its agreements. You cannot expect a wolf to make restitution to its prey for being sneaky and underhanded on the hunt.

Why do you seek to negotiate with them?


It seems to me that a lot of Americans think our losses were our own fault for believing the treaties in the first place


Why do you care what "the americans" think? Why do you seek to make treaties with wolves? You don't need them. You're not dependant on them for your future.

Why don't you simply return to your dance? It is waiting for you.

Leave the hurts of your ancestors behind. You do not permission from the wolf to live the life you choose. You do not need the wolf to "give" you land that cannot be owned. No payment or restitution can possibly make up for what was done.

So why seek it?


reply posted on 8-11-2009 @ 02:47 AM by apacheman
reply to post by LordBucket


You seem to misunderstand what I and others are talking about.

While I may be angry at the history, I'm quite pragmatic and clear about the here and now. I've spent my entire life working for our eventual freedom and fully expect to live to see it. In the here and now, I'm not at all angry, for anger clouds judgment. I study and understand well the cycles of history and the parabolas of the rise and fall of nations. Eventually the US will fall, most probably sometime soon. In the meantime it weakens and at such times in a nation's history, vassal states may throw off the yoke. And historically speaking, that's what the tribes and reservations are: vassal states.

Consider this: a lot of the US is now owned by foreign interests, some far more sympathetic to Native interests than the US is. At some point, Native interests and non-US interest may and will coincide to the point that pressure will be brought to bear to force US compliance with treaty obligations. It wouldn't be the first time in human history that it has happened.

And the major treaty obligation is restoral of stolen lands and freedom. I can certainly envisage a tribe striking a deal to lease half of any recovered lands at a sweet price to whoever helped get it back.


reply posted on 8-11-2009 @ 01:39 PM by apacheman
reply to post by PApro


Amazing the amount of ignorance in America.

Most of the federally held lands in the US are actually Native American property that can be returned without putting anyone off it. You might lose a national park or two, but tough, wasn't yours to begin with. A lot of lands were illegally expropriated in the 1920s through 1960s. We are talking about titled land, not abstract theories. And if some are dispossessed, so what? What goes around comes around; have the feds buy their property at fair market value and they'll be happy.

It doesn't matter what occurred before you guys got here: that's a red herring, irrelevant. We are simply asking for justice based on signed treaties and acknowledged obligations. What's so bloody hard about keeping your word to us?

What you advocate is brute right of conquest and unilateral dissolution of international treaties, since the tribes are legally sovereign nations. With attitudes like this, in another generation it will mean open warfare between us again, and since the US outguns us, international military support for our cause...do you really want to go there? Remember that we aren't as stupid as the Islamic terrorists are and would fight in ways you can't conceive of. If open war began again, I expect the US would last maybe a month: it's far too vulnerable from within, too complacent and arrogant to mount an effective defense in time.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by apacheman]


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 07:59 PM by PApro
reply to post by apacheman



eather way, the gov. has F'd me over since birth. it is what it is. cant change the past. nothing will make up for it anyway. and like i said nobody truly has any right to any land. be it native american or any other people anywhere in the universe.. it only belongs cuz at one time some one simply said " i clam this land". its not ours in any sense and never was.
animals have more right to it than any human.

also, i am srry for rudeness at the end.. poor ppl often grow up to be A*holes

[edit on 9-11-2009 by PApro]

[edit on 9-11-2009 by PApro]


reply posted on 9-11-2009 @ 09:31 PM by apacheman
reply to post by PApro


Apology accepted...trust me, I know how frustrating even thinking about the government can be.

And I understand the concept of not owning land. But unfortunately we deal with people who firmly believe in the concept of individual ownership and must work with them on their own level on this one.

ed. sp.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by apacheman]
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