reply to post by apacheman
I think you and I have gone round and round about this before, We lost are lands and we are not going to get them back. We should move forward and
stop living off the governments tit, we don’t need them we need to stand on our own.
If I recall correctly I think it was you who said I wasn’t an Indian just one with Indian blood... Well we did lose the war because we are a
backward peoples and we STILL OUR, No wonder no one respects us, we stayed the same way since our ancestors walked across that land bridge from
Alaska, WE HAVE STAYED THE SAME, No advancements no nothing. ( exception is the South American Indians who managed to build LARGE cities) We north
Americans build Tee Pees and Wigwams, of course we were going to get our Ass kicked. Now its time for us to wake the hell up and move forward.
Obama pledge to Native Americans , page 3
privacy
reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 02:25 PM by Ophiuchus 13
Originally posted by bigspud
Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
Originally posted by bigspud
reply to post by on_yur_6
there are no Native Americans.
the first migrants came from n\e asia.
TRUTHFULLY, the first were from CENTRAL AMERICA VIA SOUTH AMERICA.
hmmm, 53 miles from russia to alaska, vs thousands of miles from polynesia to south america.
i believe the mongloids were first.
Your direction was cold frigid and deadly the south to north provided temp. great for hunter gathering along the long hike not to mention the OCEANS ON BOTH SIDE OF THE WALK for boating, BUT FEEL FREE TO THINK WHAT YOU WISH NATIVE AMERICANS ARE INFLUENCED W/ FEATHERS AND WRITTINGS SIMULAR TO THE ANCIENT S. AMERICANS friend.
[edit on 11/5/09 by Ophiuchus 13]
reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 02:31 PM by Zosynspiracy
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet
And how the hell do you expect Native Americans to get ahead? It's easy to say it's time for Indians to move forward. But you can't exactly do that without access to education. Education takes money.
The biggest travesty of the whole Native American saga is that you guys were banished to some of the most barren, unfertile, crappy land in the United States. I mean you guys were treated worse than blacks and still are to this day. Yet you see nothing wrong with that. The US government and the American people owe a lot to the US. And when I say the American people I mean those rich, powerful families that go back to the 1700s that made their money from Indian land and the resources in that land. Rockefellers, Carnegies, etc. Most of the Robber barons can be traced back.
And how the hell do you expect Native Americans to get ahead? It's easy to say it's time for Indians to move forward. But you can't exactly do that without access to education. Education takes money.
The biggest travesty of the whole Native American saga is that you guys were banished to some of the most barren, unfertile, crappy land in the United States. I mean you guys were treated worse than blacks and still are to this day. Yet you see nothing wrong with that. The US government and the American people owe a lot to the US. And when I say the American people I mean those rich, powerful families that go back to the 1700s that made their money from Indian land and the resources in that land. Rockefellers, Carnegies, etc. Most of the Robber barons can be traced back.
reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 02:35 PM by Sestias
reply to post by whaaa
Good thread.
It seems very hard for members to discuss this subject rationally. Looks like a lot of warns because of highly negative emotional outbursts.
I'm all for honoring our old treaties, but how is that to be practically done? Giving back tribal lands will mean dispossessing others who have long since settled on them. That would involve a lot of controversy and political and social upheaval and maybe even open rebellion.
I agree with poedxsoldiervet that providing ACCESS to good education and good health care and good jobs is the least we can do now. I don't believe he or she was asking for a handout, just a leveling of the playing field.
Are we white folks so paranoid that somebody is going to (justifiably) take back something we feel entitled to that we are reduced to such hateful outbursts and abuse toward those we have already wronged?
The question is how to address past injustices, not, at this late date, who is to blame.
Good thread.
It seems very hard for members to discuss this subject rationally. Looks like a lot of warns because of highly negative emotional outbursts.
I'm all for honoring our old treaties, but how is that to be practically done? Giving back tribal lands will mean dispossessing others who have long since settled on them. That would involve a lot of controversy and political and social upheaval and maybe even open rebellion.
I agree with poedxsoldiervet that providing ACCESS to good education and good health care and good jobs is the least we can do now. I don't believe he or she was asking for a handout, just a leveling of the playing field.
Are we white folks so paranoid that somebody is going to (justifiably) take back something we feel entitled to that we are reduced to such hateful outbursts and abuse toward those we have already wronged?
The question is how to address past injustices, not, at this late date, who is to blame.
reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 02:38 PM by whaaa
Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by apacheman
No wonder no one respects us, we stayed the same way since our ancestors walked across that land bridge from Alaska, WE HAVE STAYED THE SAME, No advancements no nothing. ( exception is the South American Indians who managed to build LARGE cities) We north Americans build Tee Pees and Wigwams, of course we were going to get our Ass kicked. Now its time for us to wake the hell up and move forward.
Actually Native Americans are respected world wide!! Perhaps not for technological or Industrial advancements; but for respect for the Earth Mother, spiritual sophistication and a connection to something other than materialism and respect for the traditional ways.
My NA blood is minuscule but by living in the close proximity of 3 Pueblos and 2 rez; I have learned much from my NA friends.
reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 02:46 PM by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by Sestias
Thank you, you understood what I am saying. Most of the Indians I Speak to, ( I do travel to the Rez in the east coast to speak to my brothers) they call me a traitor and a coward. Most Indians don’t want to hear it, They want to feel bad for themselves and blame thewhite man.
Thank you, you understood what I am saying. Most of the Indians I Speak to, ( I do travel to the Rez in the east coast to speak to my brothers) they call me a traitor and a coward. Most Indians don’t want to hear it, They want to feel bad for themselves and blame thewhite man.
reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 02:57 PM by apacheman
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet
First, my apologies...sometimes I don't filter my words as carefully as I might. I've been fighting this fight for what seems like aeons now and I get a little impatient at times.
Hmmm, where have you been? Most of the tribes I follow (Apache, Navaho, Sioux, Cheyenne, Cherokee, and Kumeyaay) have long-established industries and commercial ventures. I have a college education, and have taught many Native American students. And no, I didn't teach history or culture (not directly, at least): I taught computer science, digital multimedia. Mostly I taught people the mechanics of thinking...HOW to think, not What to. The tribes are not as backward as a lot think.
Many years ago, as a college student, I was assigned by the department I worked for (American Indian Studies) to survey Native American students' records to determine why their graduation rate was so low, and how many credits they would need on average to graduate. What I found was that of our population of Native American students, most had at least twice as many credits as needed to graduate, but they weren't organized in a way to permit the issuance of degrees. When I moved on to the personal interview part, the vast majority of the students said the reason was that they studied what interested them without an eye to a degree because they felt (rather strongly) a degree was pretty pointless, since it wouldn't translate into any better job opportunities or social acceptance due to prejudice and the way the BIA mandated the use of tribal money. So we had a very highly educated Native population that was deemed ignorant and lazy by the locals, incompetent to handle their own affairs. many of the older students warned that if the tribes actually managed to get a commercial enterprise off the ground it would simply be confiscated by local non-Indian business interests as had been done every time in the past.
Thankfully, though, they did put their knowledge and education to work in positive (and political) ways, and with patience and determination eventually garnered enough power to begin changing the political climate. It's taken over thirty years of hard work to accomplish and now there is hope and progress on at least some of the rez's. True, in california it's been casinos, but you take what you can get. And the casino tribes are diversifying as swiftly as they can.
So put me down as completely, totally, and unwaveringly opposed to assimilation or anything remotely resembling it. We have worked too hard, for too long, for too many generations to give up now. Sooner or later the tribes will be free again, free of the Americans, free to follow our own ways in the modern world, free to make our own mistakes and be responsible for them, free to find our own solutions. But to do that we need a land base and a strong national identity. Becoming just another American is to submit to cultural genocide, to being a person of Indian descent, but not an Apache, Cheyenne, or Navaho, much like person with French citizenship who was born in the US may be of US descent, but not an American.
I hope you understand the distiction I'm making and why. No one is advocating returning to living in teepees, except at pow-wows and other temporary gatherings, for which purpose they are technologically vastly superior to anything else. Not ALL tribal inventions were backwards or inferior to European designs, as you seem to think. Native Americans are fully capable of taking their rightful place among the other nations of the world, if only the Americans would abide by their obligations and allow it.
First, my apologies...sometimes I don't filter my words as carefully as I might. I've been fighting this fight for what seems like aeons now and I get a little impatient at times.
Hmmm, where have you been? Most of the tribes I follow (Apache, Navaho, Sioux, Cheyenne, Cherokee, and Kumeyaay) have long-established industries and commercial ventures. I have a college education, and have taught many Native American students. And no, I didn't teach history or culture (not directly, at least): I taught computer science, digital multimedia. Mostly I taught people the mechanics of thinking...HOW to think, not What to. The tribes are not as backward as a lot think.
Many years ago, as a college student, I was assigned by the department I worked for (American Indian Studies) to survey Native American students' records to determine why their graduation rate was so low, and how many credits they would need on average to graduate. What I found was that of our population of Native American students, most had at least twice as many credits as needed to graduate, but they weren't organized in a way to permit the issuance of degrees. When I moved on to the personal interview part, the vast majority of the students said the reason was that they studied what interested them without an eye to a degree because they felt (rather strongly) a degree was pretty pointless, since it wouldn't translate into any better job opportunities or social acceptance due to prejudice and the way the BIA mandated the use of tribal money. So we had a very highly educated Native population that was deemed ignorant and lazy by the locals, incompetent to handle their own affairs. many of the older students warned that if the tribes actually managed to get a commercial enterprise off the ground it would simply be confiscated by local non-Indian business interests as had been done every time in the past.
Thankfully, though, they did put their knowledge and education to work in positive (and political) ways, and with patience and determination eventually garnered enough power to begin changing the political climate. It's taken over thirty years of hard work to accomplish and now there is hope and progress on at least some of the rez's. True, in california it's been casinos, but you take what you can get. And the casino tribes are diversifying as swiftly as they can.
So put me down as completely, totally, and unwaveringly opposed to assimilation or anything remotely resembling it. We have worked too hard, for too long, for too many generations to give up now. Sooner or later the tribes will be free again, free of the Americans, free to follow our own ways in the modern world, free to make our own mistakes and be responsible for them, free to find our own solutions. But to do that we need a land base and a strong national identity. Becoming just another American is to submit to cultural genocide, to being a person of Indian descent, but not an Apache, Cheyenne, or Navaho, much like person with French citizenship who was born in the US may be of US descent, but not an American.
I hope you understand the distiction I'm making and why. No one is advocating returning to living in teepees, except at pow-wows and other temporary gatherings, for which purpose they are technologically vastly superior to anything else. Not ALL tribal inventions were backwards or inferior to European designs, as you seem to think. Native Americans are fully capable of taking their rightful place among the other nations of the world, if only the Americans would abide by their obligations and allow it.
reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 03:03 PM by nixie_nox
reply to post by Alxandro
Only two months after getting into office Obama gave the navajo their water rights.
October 1, the bil was signed to give the go ahead to start building the pipeline.
This has been a fight on the navajos part that has been 30 years in the making.
Only two months after getting into office Obama gave the navajo their water rights.
October 1, the bil was signed to give the go ahead to start building the pipeline.
This has been a fight on the navajos part that has been 30 years in the making.
reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 04:46 PM by apacheman
reply to post by nixie_nox
I don't know that you could characterize it as Obama "giving" anything. It merely "recognizes" Navajo water rights, same as been done since around 1900. Doesn't mean any water will actually reach them. Now if it recognized the water rights of say, the (fictitious) Navahoe corporation's (as a wholly owned subsidiary of say, Peabody Mining [not fictitious]), you can bet water would be flowing next week.
This is simply more window dressing, every single newly elected President does something similar, which either turns out to be another way to pay off corporate contributors with access to Native resources or an exercise in stalling while appearing to be "sensitive" to Indian issues.
www.doi.gov...
www.latimes.com...
americas.irc-online.org...
I don't know that you could characterize it as Obama "giving" anything. It merely "recognizes" Navajo water rights, same as been done since around 1900. Doesn't mean any water will actually reach them. Now if it recognized the water rights of say, the (fictitious) Navahoe corporation's (as a wholly owned subsidiary of say, Peabody Mining [not fictitious]), you can bet water would be flowing next week.
This is simply more window dressing, every single newly elected President does something similar, which either turns out to be another way to pay off corporate contributors with access to Native resources or an exercise in stalling while appearing to be "sensitive" to Indian issues.
www.doi.gov...
www.latimes.com...
americas.irc-online.org...
reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 05:18 PM by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by apacheman
I do agree we need more of Indians to come back to the rez and teach our own. We need to create factories and banks, we should try to become with the jews were in the middle ages...
I do agree we need more of Indians to come back to the rez and teach our own. We need to create factories and banks, we should try to become with the jews were in the middle ages...
reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 05:22 PM by nixie_nox
reply to post by apacheman
Funny you mention the BIA because that would be the first place I would like to see Obama start, with that abomination. So many millions of dollars are lost every year, dissappearing in that agency.
Funny you mention the BIA because that would be the first place I would like to see Obama start, with that abomination. So many millions of dollars are lost every year, dissappearing in that agency.
reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 10:19 PM by Blaine91555
reply to post by whaaa
How can a President who is fully opposed to the development of natural resources or the subsistence lifestyle even begin to help the Alaskan Natives. Their entire future rests on the accessibility of the wildlife, whales, fishing and the development of natural resources such as oil and natural gas for their futures.
Will the DNC fly a bunch of Native Americans up from the lower 48 to stage a fake protest in Nome and pretend to be local Natives like they did once before? Or how about the fake video of ANWAR they showed Congress taken more than a hundred miles from the real proposed drilling site to hide the true nature of where they want to drill.
Gore has probably already promised him an executive position in his Carbon Credit scam if he lies well enough to push through Cap and Trade. The estimates I've seen is that Gore stands to make a billion immediately and much more if this legislation passes. If it does kiss the Alaskan Natives futures goodbye.
What a phony snake oil salesman.
What he and his minions really want is an end to fishing, whaling, hunting and zero development of natural resources and he has already done damage by creating more critical habitat based on the lie about the reduction in numbers of Polar Bear.
I doubt he will fool the Alaskan Natives as they are pretty sharp people who have done well through their well managed Native Corporations. If he continues down this path to depopulate Alaska by shutting down its only means of livelihood, Alaska's economy and future will die at his hands.
[edit on 11/5/2009 by Blaine91555]
How can a President who is fully opposed to the development of natural resources or the subsistence lifestyle even begin to help the Alaskan Natives. Their entire future rests on the accessibility of the wildlife, whales, fishing and the development of natural resources such as oil and natural gas for their futures.
Will the DNC fly a bunch of Native Americans up from the lower 48 to stage a fake protest in Nome and pretend to be local Natives like they did once before? Or how about the fake video of ANWAR they showed Congress taken more than a hundred miles from the real proposed drilling site to hide the true nature of where they want to drill.
Gore has probably already promised him an executive position in his Carbon Credit scam if he lies well enough to push through Cap and Trade. The estimates I've seen is that Gore stands to make a billion immediately and much more if this legislation passes. If it does kiss the Alaskan Natives futures goodbye.
What a phony snake oil salesman.
What he and his minions really want is an end to fishing, whaling, hunting and zero development of natural resources and he has already done damage by creating more critical habitat based on the lie about the reduction in numbers of Polar Bear.
I doubt he will fool the Alaskan Natives as they are pretty sharp people who have done well through their well managed Native Corporations. If he continues down this path to depopulate Alaska by shutting down its only means of livelihood, Alaska's economy and future will die at his hands.
[edit on 11/5/2009 by Blaine91555]
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