'Never Again': Cameron Pledge On EU Treaty

Looks like this is the beginning of the failure of the "New World Order"... Finally people are beginning to stand up for themselves. Will the same thing happen across the world. Only time will tell.
Sky News

David Cameron has announced a UK sovereignty act after he abandoned his "cast-iron" promise of a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Unveiling the Tories' new policy on Europe, following ratification of the Treaty, he said the new act would ensure British law takes precedence over EU law. "We cannot hold a referendum and magically make the Lisbon Treaty itself disappear," Mr Cameron said. But, he promised, "never again" would power be passed to the EU, without a referendum, under a Conservative government. "This is not about Westminster striking down individual items of EU legislation," the Tory leader said. "It is about an assurance that the final word on our laws is here in Britain." The Conservative leader is attempting to draw a line under the referendum issue by promising no further "erosion of British sovereignty". "We will make sure that this never, ever happens again," he said. "Never again should it be possible for a British government to transfer power to the European Union without the say of the British people in a referendum." Mr Cameron also said a Conservative government would aim to return some of the powers from the EU to Britain. The party would try to get back Britain's opt-out in some areas of EU social and employment legislation, a return of criminal justice powers, and a "complete opt-out" from the EU's charter of fundamental rights, he said. But he warned those eurosceptic MPs who have been calling for votes on a number of issues that he would not hold a "made-up referendum that would make people feel better for five minutes". "I don't think it's right to concoct a new pretext for a referendum," he added.

its too little too late..and he knows it...

the lisbon treaty does apparently allow for countries to leave the EU...so cameron saying '"We cannot hold a referendum and magically make the Lisbon Treaty itself disappear,"' is a lie...

its easy to say you would have done something is you had been given the chance..and..we have been promised these sort of things before..tony blair said we should have a referendum and we never got one...

But wait... there's more!!!
David Cameron Faces Further Unrest...

But his new policy, which Mr Cameron says is “settled” for the next Parliament, is coming under attack from his MEPs and party grandees. Mr Helmer said: “What we have is an essentially cosmetic policy. We are installing a largely ineffective burglar alarm when the family silver has already been stolen. "But the British people don't want vague promises. They want the family silver back in good order. “But I can neither justify nor support our new EU policy. In these circumstances, I have concluded that I can no longer continue to serve as a spokesman.”

Originally posted by x2Strongx
Looks like this is the beginning of the failure of the "New World Order"... Finally people are beginning to stand up for themselves. Will the same thing happen across the world. Only time will tell.

So I take it you don't support peaceful, prosperous trade blocks, the death of ultra nationalism and a blueprint for a prosperous, peaceful, powerful and green future for the people of the EU.

May I ask why?

This is too much like shutting the door after the horse has bolted. Empty words and he knows it.
I believe that one major bad thing will outweigh any good - and that is that our sovereignty will be further eroded with bureaucrats in another country calling the shots. It's a slippery slope.......

Originally posted by Dermo

Originally posted by x2Strongx
Looks like this is the beginning of the failure of the "New World Order"... Finally people are beginning to stand up for themselves. Will the same thing happen across the world. Only time will tell.

So I take it you don't support peaceful, prosperous trade blocks, the death of ultra nationalism and a blueprint for a prosperous, peaceful, powerful and green future for the people of the EU.

May I ask why?

powerful?..why should anyone want to be powerful?..you only have power if someone else has none...your power is always at the cost of someone elses.

the eu has been built on lies for the last 60 years...anyone who expects a good system to come out of such deceit is more optimistic that i am.

[edit on 5-11-2009 by alienesque]

[edit on 5-11-2009 by alienesque]

Originally posted by alienesque
powerful?..why should anyone want to be powerful?..you only have power if someone else has none...your power is always at the cost of someone elses.

the eu has been built on lies for the last 60 years...anyone who expects a good system to come out of such deceit is more optimistic that i am.

Powerful as in able to take care of its security. I like the way you left out all the parts that really matter though..

How has the EU been built on lies?
All member states knew what they were getting involved in when they joined.

Im not necessarily pro EU superstate but i am anti nonsense

Originally posted by Dermo

Originally posted by alienesque
powerful?..why should anyone want to be powerful?..you only have power if someone else has none...your power is always at the cost of someone elses.

the eu has been built on lies for the last 60 years...anyone who expects a good system to come out of such deceit is more optimistic that i am.

All member states knew what they were getting involved in when they joined.

Im not necessarily pro EU superstate but i am anti nonsense

if thats true you should look into where the present EU came from and the lies that have been spread for 60 years to keep the populations of europe knowing what was really the goal of these people...

no one was told 50 years ago that the real goal of the EU was what is basically a USE...it was sold to us as JUST being a common trade area etc..well..at first it was an agreement between germany and france regarding steel...we were told we need to change this and change that year after year to help this or to make that work smoother..each step made sense...so most people thought each individual step was a good idea...but...we have been lied too...the people behind the EU always knew what the EU really was going to be..

"There will be no peace in Europe, if the states are reconstituted on the basis of national sovereignty... The countries of Europe are too small to guarantee their peoples the necessary prosperity and social development. The European states must constitute themselves into a federation..."

I told Heath how we had proceeded from the start, step by step, and how we had gradually created the Common Market and todays Europe, and that I was convinced we should proceed in the same manner

3 April 1952 Monnet did say
The fusion (of economic functions) would compel nations to fuse their sovereignty into that of a single European State.

"No government dependent upon a democratic vote could possibly agree in advance to the sacrifice that any adequate plan [to build the EU] must involve. The people must be led slowly and unconsciously into their abandonment of their traditional economic defences..."

Lord (Peter) Thorneycroft, Privy Councillor, Conservative Party Chairman 1975-1981. Chairman of 'Design For Europe' Committee, 1947, quoted by Bill Jamieson in Britain Beyond Europe.

"In this area, we need much more - let's call it coordination and cooperation to soothe British feelings - than before. The real destination will have to be described in different language."

Gerhard Schröder, German Chancellor

www.telegraph.co.uk...

'He also asserted that, "although the British, Dutch and French have insisted we eliminate all reference to the word 'constitution' ", the new treaty "still contains all the key elements [of the constitution]".

Mr d'Estaing insisted that "all the earlier proposals will be in the new text, but will be hidden and disguised in some way".'

Believe me, I know more about the EU, its origins and its direction than most and I get what you are saying.

But.. the creation of a 'Core Europe' has been an open goal since the creation of the EEC. When joining any part of the EU, members are given the option to join any one or more of the Market, EURO, Schengen and several smaller agreements or join the complete EU. If members choose to partake in 'Core Europe'.. what else could they possibly be undertaking?

Also, Lisbon gives the opportunity to regain sovereignty and actually leave the union.

Any members who had signed Nice needed to sign Lisbon in order for the EU to progress. Members were given the option to look for 'opt outs' from aspects of Lisbon. States that didn't take advantage of this had only themselves to blame.

The EU constitution is slightly different than the Lisbon treaty.. Only slightly but enough for it to be completely legal.

A similar situation to the situation to the Irish voters.. we voted on a different treaty in a legal sense because we had contracts guaranteeing issues.

No great entity has ever been created through the democratic process.. Including your own country. The EU is building democracy more and more in the overall spectrum as the sovereignty of member states wains. Also, if we elect our representatives to run our nations.. and they sign agreements with the EU when representing us.. how is that undemocratic? Especially when we also vote our EU representatives.

While there is a lot that I don't agree with in regards the EU, I recognise that these kind of blocs are the future for a prosperous and more importantly, peaceful mankind. The EU pacified Europe and created a peaceful, prosperous superstate continent that actually cares about its population and surroundings. Any arguments I have against the EU are overshadowed by that simple fact... especially seeing as I have little time for nationalism.

If the world could do the same, we would be a lot better off as a species.





[edit on 5/11/09 by Dermo]

Originally posted by Dermo
Believe me, I know more about the EU, its origins and its direction than most and I get what you are saying.

But.. the creation of a 'Core Europe' has been an open goal since the creation of the EEC. When joining any part of the EU, members are given the option to join any one or more of the Market, EURO, Schengen and several smaller agreements or join the complete EU. If members choose to partake in 'Core Europe'.. what else could they possibly be undertaking?

Also, Lisbon gives the opportunity to regain sovereignty and actually leave the union.

Any members who had signed Nice needed to sign Lisbon in order for the EU to progress. Members were given the option to look for 'opt outs' from aspects of Lisbon. States that didn't take advantage of this had only themselves to blame.

The EU constitution is slightly different than the Lisbon treaty.. Only slightly but enough for it to be completely legal.

A similar situation to the situation to the Irish voters.. we voted on a different treaty in a legal sense because we had contracts guaranteeing issues.

No great entity has ever been created through the democratic process.. Including your own country. The EU is building democracy more and more in the overall spectrum as the sovereignty of member states wains. Also, if we elect our representatives to run our nations.. and they sign agreements with the EU when representing us.. how is that undemocratic? Especially when we also vote our EU representatives.

While there is a lot that I don't agree with in regards the EU, I recognise that these kind of blocs are the future for a prosperous and more importantly, peaceful mankind. The EU pacified Europe and created a peaceful, prosperous superstate continent that actually cares about its population and surroundings. Any arguments I have against the EU are overshadowed by that simple fact... especially seeing as I have little time for nationalism.

If the world could do the same, we would be a lot better off as a species.





[edit on 5/11/09 by Dermo]

hi..thanks for the great reply..

my problem isnt so much that certain politicians knew what the goal of the EEC was...thats my point actually...the problem is the citizens were never told the truth..and anything that needs to be passed by stealth is by my reasoning not starting on a very good footing...when they can justify stealth and deceit on such occasions whats to stop them acting that way again in the future...the lisbon treaty has been reached by stealth and lies..it would NEVER have got this far had the citizens of europe been told the truth...and that cant be a good thing.

if you would have asked any citizen of europe 30 years ago what the EEC is and where its going you very probably would not have been given a correct answer..they didnt know..

bringing people together is a very noble goal..if its done for honest reasons..but..as ive said...seeing as the people are being brought together...(forced together is a better term actually) against their will i cant see this EU being a good thing...does something good ever come out of something started in such a negative way?

maybe it can..i just doubt it...certain groups of people have always wanted to have great power...at any cost..i think the people of the 20th century have been lulled into a false sense of security...most think those times are long gone...when in reality they could be only just beginning..

i hope im wrong however...and i truly hope your optimism is justified

reply to post by alienesque


I know what you are saying because I had that perspective until relatively recently and still do in a sense.. its the main part of the EU that I don't agree with. Its all done at a supranational level with very little say from the general populations.

Fact is though, international dealings and geopolitics almost never have anything to do with or have any input from the general population of the nations in question. I do understand that the EU is constantly diluting sovereignty and that should be left up to the populations but in their defense, everything they do is legal in relation to the constitutions of the member states.

Forced together is completely incorrect.. To be fair, the vast majority of EU citizens agree with the EU and what it has done and is doing.. its just that on sites like this, you will come across a majority who are against. Some countries are obviously more nationalist than others but still don't want out.. they know that they are better off in than out even though they might not like the future they see for nationalistic reasons.

I do get what you are saying about the future.. however, noone can predict what is going to happen. All I know is that the EU has pacified this continent, has created a massive pocket of wealth and ingenuity and is creating a democratic superstate. Democracy is the best system in order to stop war.

I appreciate your concern though

Originally posted by Dermo
reply to post by alienesque

 

I know what you are saying because I had that perspective until relatively recently and still do in a sense.. its the main part of the EU that I don't agree with. Its all done at a supranational level with very little say from the general populations.

Fact is though, international dealings and geopolitics almost never have anything to do with or have any input from the general population of the nations in question. I do understand that the EU is constantly diluting sovereignty and that should be left up to the populations but in their defense, everything they do is legal in relation to the constitutions of the member states.

Forced together is completely incorrect.. To be fair, the vast majority of EU citizens agree with the EU and what it has done and is doing.. its just that on sites like this, you will come across a majority who are against. Some countries are obviously more nationalist than others but still don't want out.. they know that they are better off in than out even though they might not like the future they see for nationalistic reasons.

I do get what you are saying about the future.. however, noone can predict what is going to happen. All I know is that the EU has pacified this continent, has created a massive pocket of wealth and ingenuity and is creating a democratic superstate. Democracy is the best system in order to stop war.

I appreciate your concern though

1...i know...the eu claims to be different however..so thats another lie.
2...really?
3...really?

they claim to bring more democracy and are doing it in one of the most blatently non-democratic ways imaginable...that makes me skeptical..

reply to post by alienesque


1. Possibly
2. Yes - It is all about legality after all.
3. Yes - Not all aspects but if asked would they want to disband it.. Answer = No!!! Therefore they support it.

They are not bringing MORE democracy as how can you bring more demo.. they are moving the democratic process as the power becomes slightly more centralized. Also, seeing as now, member state parliaments have more of a say in the running of the EU as well as the elected MEP parliament members.. that is definitely a huge step in the right direction for ensuring democracy as the EU itself becomes more powerful.

I am also skeptical at times and disagree with many policies but viewing the bigger picture and direction.. its clear what is happening and I completely agree with it overall. All the information is there on all of the processes and direction.. You just have to check it out. I don't believe in the whole global dictatorship conspiracy thing btw. If this is where out lines are getting crossed, then we're going nowhere

europa.eu...
www.eurunion.org...
ec.europa.eu...
euobserver.com...
www.euronews.net...

Originally posted by Dermo
reply to post by alienesque

 

1. Possibly
2. Yes - It is all about legality after all.
3. Yes - Not all aspects but if asked would they want to disband it.. Answer = No!!! Therefore they support it.

1.
2. thats not my opinion
3. they dont know what it is..thats why.

reply to post by alienesque




This is going to go nowhere apart from the direction of opinion so Im going to bow out gracefully and respectfully.

I would like to point out though before I go that in regards the EU and its direction, a lot more Europeans know more about it than you would like to give us credit for, most of the rest don't care.. and this is coming from someone who has done quite a bit of asking around.

Have a good one