Why did the Catholics change the ten commandments ?

slight tangent, but the topic of "idolatry" has come up in this thread a few times and i figured i'd offer my 3 cents...


there is a difference between worshiping the image of a thing and worshiping what that image represents.

i believe that most cultures and individuals (including Catholics) perform the latter and not the former.

in the same manner someone can have a photo of a loved one... and look at that photo adoringly (for the photo represents the loved one), someone can have an image of whatever they consider to be holy, and use that image as a sort of 'bridge' to the spiritual mystery they are attempting to connect with. they are not worshiping the image itself... they are using the image to invoke a feeling of reverence. this is a very human tendency. it is where art and music first came from.


it amazes me how quickly those of the Abrahamic traditions find fault in others and their way of worship... without making an effort to truly understand it.



now excuse me while i sit before a statue of Shiva (representing the eternity of the cosmos) and a painting of Kuan Yin (representing compassion for all beings) while meditating upon a wooden Medicine Wheel (representing the wholeness yet polarities of spirit and nature)... all of these representing aspects of what can be called God.


to those that find sin in this... the sin is on your tongue. not in my heart.

Originally posted by StopComplaining
I have only been to a Catholic Church once and guess what I put in the collection plate ... you guessed it, a copy of the ten commandments.

Thank you Stop for a great morning giggle.

It was just what I needed.

Back to the advertised topic.......

First of all the most correct version of the 10 Commandments are as follows - “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” ( Exodus 20:3). “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image” ( Exodus 20:4). “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain” ( Exodus 20:7). “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy” ( Exodus 20:8). “Honour thy father and thy mother” ( Exodus 20:12). “Thou shalt not kill” ( Exodus 20:13). “Thou shalt not commit adultery” ( Exodus 20:14). “Thou shalt not steal” ( Exodus 20:15). “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” ( Exodus 20:16). “Thou shalt not covet” ( Exodus 20:17). Looks simple and straight forward to me.
Secondly, most of the religions have bits and peices of the real truth about God and Christ. Some have more than others and the reason for having so many different religions and each on having part of the truth is because everyone is not on the same spiritual level. Basically what determines what spiritual level your on is what you believe in, what you accept as the truth.
Now in my opinion the three most screwed up religions on the planet today are the Jehovah's witness where they have to taken the whole idolatry thing to extremes among other stuff that is just weird. I do not know what anyone else thinks but if your American and you dont salute the flag and say the pledge of allegence like so many of us did growing up thats unpatriotic, and I could never understand whats so wrong with celebrating your birthday and other holidays. Second worse is.......you guessed it the Catholics. Now when they first started centuries ago they might have been ok, but now as time has gone on they have gotten worse and worse. Like someone else posted on here they seem to worship or at least do their main praying to Mary mother of Jesus, the whole DaVinci Code thing with them erradicating the Knights templar(that is if you believe in the DaVinci code that is). They also destroyed or tried to cover up anything that contradicted their own beliefs, believing that their way of thinking was the only way or no way at all. They dont just fear what they dont understand they destroy it by any means possible. Another strange thing is catholic church has their own Army thats right I said ARMY stationed in the Vatican. Now why would a church need an army, no other church on earth has one. Then theres the whole thing with the priests doing things with the choir boys or whoever they shouldnt be doing at all.
Theres so many things wrong with the Catholic church its not funny and you could write volumes of books with all the stuff the church has done that would not make God happy at all. Now the worst religion is very close to the Catholics is Islam and more specifically the extremists that say they are on a mission from God and doing Gods will and go and bomb a building or strap a bomb on their chest and set it off in a crowd of people. They have lost what it truly means to serve God centuries ago and they are now a lost people.

reply to post by Max_TO


Which version of the Ten Commandments? There's at least three that I am aware of. Do you mean the ones given at Exodus 20:1-17, Exodus 34:1-33, Deuteronomy 5:6-21?

Most "Which 10 Commandments" sites I saw upon a cursory Google search turned up the comparisons of Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5, but many may not be familiar with the Exodus 34 ten commandments.

IIRC, (and please forgive out of order or unnecessary splitting) these basically are; (NIV)

Preface:
So Moses chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones and went up Mount Sinai early in the morning, as the LORD had commanded him; and he carried the two stone tablets in his hands. Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD. And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation." (4-7)

I: Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. (13 & 14)

II: Do not make cast idols. (17)

III: Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you. Do this at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in that month you came out of Egypt. (18)

IV: The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. (19 & 20)

V: Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest. (21)

VI: Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the turn of the year. (22)

VII: Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign LORD, the God of Israel. I will drive out nations before you and enlarge your territory, and no one will covet your land when you go up three times each year to appear before the LORD your God. (23 & 24)

VIII: Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning. (25)

XI: Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the LORD your God. (26)

X: Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk. (26)

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments. (27 & 28)

In light of which, I find it rather moot asking why "Catholics" supposedly changed the ten commandments.

reply to post by DemonSpeedN

Another strange thing is catholic church has their own Army thats right I said ARMY stationed in the Vatican.

I'm not sure as to the extent of the "Vatican's Army", but I'm at least fairly certain it's not nearly as organized, combat ready, and as cool as this:



To say nothing of Section XIII: Iscariot. The Vatican assassins who willfully condemn themselves to hell fighting the enemies of god.



[edit on 5-11-2009 by Lasheic]

jordan maxwell said it best

the vatican and ####ing CATHOLIC CHURCH controls everything in this planet.

Eliminate this scourge, this evil, will free us all, from this domination,this farce, false sense of salvation and money grubbing,

a lie for centuries

coming to its end,

disclosure, soon coming , show yourself, be somebody,

the time is now

show yourself. come on MR. antichrist....time to dazzle the world with your brillance, loving and compassion, statesmanship, peace for all. unilateral governace......all will worship you

the ####ing answer

go for it ....give it your best


fail loser..it is written....but go ahead...deceive most...not all..

the worlds a stage.....what are you waiting for

reply to post by huntergatherer

the vatican and ####ing CATHOLIC CHURCH controls everything in this planet.

While the Catholic Church has a powerful influence, and not always for the best - trying to blame all of the world's ill on the Catholic Church is simple-minded scapegoating at best. I often complain to Atheists who think abolishing religion will make the world a significantly safer and more tolerant place, trying to point out that the irrationality, behaviors, and fundamentalist mindsets which organized religion attracts like a magnet are not resultant from religion - and can be just as dangerous without it. Addressing the root issues in human behavior will, as a result, turn religion benign and beneficial as a generator of culture and community cohesion - or else it will crumble under it's own weight regardless.

I see no difference in your accusation, except yours is narrowed even further. Scapegoating only ever creates the need for another goat to pin our ills upon and sacrifice.


As an example, the Vatican has often rejected the idea of a Jewish Israel, although justifications may have changed. Most recently, the Vatican's position has tended to be support for a Palestinian state and condemnation for Jewish occupations and illegal settlements. Yet, some powerful Christian groups in America form an influential lobby supporting the Jewish government's (a misnomer, since IIRC, even most Jewish people in and outside of Israel don't support the Jewish government's actions. Yet I'm loathe to use the word "Zionist Lobby" due to the abuse the term has recieved) illegal occupation of Palestinian territories.

The "Jewish Lobby" supporting and pushing expansion into Palestine is, by itself, rather powerless without the support of these prominent Christian lobby groups who believe that Jesus's second coming (and in some cases, the rapture) will only occur once all of Israel once again belongs to the Jews. This has produced the rather hypocritical stance of shaking our finger in disapproval of Israel's actions while doing nothing to stand behind our words... meanwhile providing unilateral support of Israel.

The Jewish Lobby is a powerful force in American government, but only because they are supported and emboldened by the Christian lobbies. In many ways, I get the feeling that much of the hatred generated towards Jewish manipulation in Government is projection from Christians who are attempting to appear pious to their constituents.

**Edit: Recent source: Catholic News Service. May 2009.

BETHLEHEM, West Bank (CNS) -- Pope Benedict XVI arrived in the Palestinian territories May 13 and immediately declared the Vatican's support for an independent Palestine.

"The Holy See supports the right of your people to a sovereign Palestinian homeland in the land of your forefathers, secure and at peace with its neighbors, within internationally recognized borders," the pope told Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

From prominent evangelical Christian Pastor Pat Robertson.

Ladies and Gentleman, evangelical Christians support Israel because we believe that the words of Moses and the ancient prophets of Israel were inspired by God. We believe that the emergence of a Jewish state in the land promised by God to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was ordained by God.

If a Palestinian State is created in the heart of Israel with sovereign power to deploy troops, import modern weapons -- even weapons of mass destruction --and operate with full secrecy and diplomatic immunity, the ability of the State of Israel to defend itself will be fatally compromised.

I read recently in The Wall Street Journal an article written by an American Jewish commentator who remarked that the Temple Mount and what is termed the "Wailing Wall" are "sacred stones and sites," but hardly worth bloodshed.

Just think -- the place where the Patriarch Abraham took Isaac to offer him to God. The place bought by King David from Araunah where the Angel of the Lord stood with drawn sword. The place of Solomon's temple. The place of the Holy of Holies. The place where Jesus Christ walked and taught. The very spiritual center of the Jewish worship of the one true God -- nothing but a pile of sacred stones -- unworthy of sacrifice? What an incredible assertion!

[edit on 5-11-2009 by Lasheic]

Because the ten commandments are plagiarized from spell 125 of the Egyptian book of the dead. The catholics are probably just trying to make it sound more original...

Originally posted by Freeborn
I was raised a Catholic but am Agnostic.

However I must say that Christians tend to bicker and argue over the most irrelevant things.
Maybe if you all concentrated on the things that unite you rather than that which divides maybe, just maybe, you would be able to do something positive in this world.

With that spirit of reconciliation in mind ..... a little humour .



Irish comedian=some swearing.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Many of you have mentioned how there are more then 1 version of the Ten Commandments in the bible , you are right .

I will post all 3 versions as listed on a website offering some interesting info on the Ten Commandments ... www.religioustolerance.org...

Text of all three versions of the Ten Commandments:

There are three versions of the Ten Commandments in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). They are at Exodus 20:2-17, Exodus 34:12-26, and Deuteronomy 5:6-21.

Exodus 20 version:

This is the most commonly used set of Commandments. In the King James' Version. Conservative Jews and Christians generally believe that the text was written by God on stone tablets and given to Moses during the Exodus, circa 1450 BCE. Liberals typically follow the Documentary Hypothesis, and attribute the writing to an anonymous author generally referred to as "E" who lived sometime between 922 and 722 BCE. More details.

The text reads:
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Exodus 34 version:

Religious conservatives generally accept the Bible as inerrant and believe that Yahweh dictated this version to Moses who wrote it down in brush and ink circa 1450 BCE. Liberals generally accept that this version was written by an anonymous author generally referred to as "J" sometime between 848 and 722 BCE.

The text reads:
12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
19 All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
23 Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.
24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.
25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Deuteronomy 5 version

Religious conservatives generally regard this version as having been written on tablets by God as in the Exodus 20 version circa 1450 BCE. Religious liberals generally regard this as having been written by an anonymous author called "D" circa 622 BCE during the time of the exile to Babylon..

The text reads:
6 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.
13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:
14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.
15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
17 Thou shalt not kill.
18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
19 Neither shalt thou steal.
20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Perhaps a bit off topic ... Jesus was asked what commandment was the most important commandment and his reply was ....

Mark 12:28-31 (King James Version)

28And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

I will post all 3 versions as listed on a website offering some interesting info on the Ten Commandments

With respect, the contents of Exodus 34 is the covenant with Moses, and is not the Ten Commandments.

As the first verse of chapter 34 explains, Moses is directed to provide stone tablets to replace the ones he broke, and which are to be inscribed with the same contents. That is, the Ten Commandments. Whether of earlier Exodus or of Deuteronomy, who is to say?

God then turns to other business, specific to the relationship between Him and the Hebrews.

While religious tolerance dot org has many articles of interest, this specific article reflects a lapse of editorial oversight.

It is certainly true that some readers, fairly described as "conservative," believe that Exodus 34 binds living Jews and (in some people's view) Christians. However, the phrase The Ten Commandments does not purport to be the whole of the Law and, like all phrases, is defined by its usage within the linguistic community where it is used.

To express the valid thought "some living people observe what is in Exodus 34 as God's Law" by the inaccurate statement "a version of the Ten Commandments appears in Exodus 34" is simply a gaffe.


[edit on 6-11-2009 by eight bits]

First off the version of the ten commandments I gave are the King James Version, sorry for that I didnt know it would cause such confusion.
Secondly Lesheic I did not get my information on the vatican army from an anime. Also the catholic church and the vatican do control alot with their influence, maybe not the whole world but enough to secure the church a future. If the people of the vatican were truly servants of God they would publish everything in the Vatican Library and not keep it a secret.
Lastly, antithesis as much as I love the ancient Egyptians I think it was either they that plagarized the original ten commandments of God given to Moses. Or the egyptians were thinking along the same lines or maybe they were also told by God and its just not recorded in the bible like with moses.

reply to post by mythos


Thank you for clearing that up. I read through this entire thread and became very confused. I have never once met a Catholic who worshiped any idol. Hanging a cross or having the stations of the Cross in a Church, or having statues is not the same thing. I think people need to learn the differences before jumping to silly conclusions.

For that matter, the first commandment does raise this issue while stating "Thou shall not have any other Gods before me."
The very first one explains that there is one God. There are no idols in Catholicism.

[edit on 6-11-2009 by spinalremain]

Originally posted by DemonSpeedN
Secondly Lesheic I did not get my information on the vatican army from an anime. Also the catholic church and the vatican do control alot with their influence, maybe not the whole world but enough to secure the church a future. If the people of the vatican were truly servants of God they would publish everything in the Vatican Library and not keep it a secret.

What Vatican army are you referring to? Not the Swiss Guard, right?

What exactly does the Catholic Church control? Why is it a negative for an entity to ensure it's future?

Why do you believe that the sign of being servants of God is the publishing of a library? What specific contents of the library would you like published?


Eric

EricD I will try and explain this is best as I can. The Vatican has an Army for many reasons, but the most basic one is for defense. Since the Vatican is a city and a country inside the city limits of Rome, being only 110 acres and a population of about 800 or so making it the smallest country in the world. It is only natural for a country to want to defend itself, but then again it is just a church inside the city of Rome and why couldnt they use Italian guards or police like the rest of the city, what makes the catholic church so so special it gets its own city, country and army.
Your second question was "what does the vatican control" well thats hard to say exactly cause they do things behind the scenes out of the view of the public eye.
Being true servants of God the vatican would not harbor secrets no matter what. The vatican library has books, papyri, and all kinds of record keeping materials. They have some of the worlds oldest books and stuff, documents that contradict catholicism, documents that paint the catholic church in general in negative light.

Originally posted by DarkElvis
reply to post by Max_TO

 

The Church hasn't changed any of the Commandments. Idolatry is still a sin. There seems to be confusion about the Saints role in Catholicism. I think some people think that Santeria is somehow related to Catholicism, but it isn't. We DO NOT WORSHIP MARY NOR THE SAINTS we ask them for intercession. The same way the Centurion asked Jesus to cure his servant is one example of intercession. As for why we have images of Jesus and the saints? For the same reason we have pictures of our family members in our homes. To remember them and feel close to them, although they are just pictures its who are in those pictures who we love. Not the piece of wood, plaster or paper. Many times I've seen the family of soldiers hold on to a portrait as if it was the soldier himself. Im pretty sure they are aware that the portrait is not their loved one, but they keep it and sometimes embrace it to feel close to them.

Anybody that says he or she is Catholic and has worshipeed Mary or The Saints is lying. We only worhip God.

don't forget the pope

reply to post by DemonSpeedN


Thanks for your patience!

So, again, what army are you referring to? Is it the Swiss Guard?

You also assert that the Church controls things, but you don't know what those things are. Is that an accurate summation?

Can you please list what 'books and stuff' that the Church archives have that contradict Catholicism or paint it in a negative light?

Thanks!

Eric