CIA agents guilty of Italy kidnap

CIA agents guilty of Italy kidnap

news.bbc.co.uk

An Italian judge has convicted 23 Americans - all but one of them CIA agents - and two Italian secret agents for the 2003 kidnap of a Muslim cleric.

The agents were accused of abducting Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, known as Abu Omar, from Milan and sending him to Egypt, where he was allegedly tortured

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I, like a lot of Members, have mixed feelings on this'

On one hand I can totally understand the anger and contempt the Italians have for this process and the arrogance of the CIA in carrying out this kind of operation on the soil of an independent nation.

However, these operatives were carrying out orders, that must have originated from the very highest levels of the US military establishment. Me personally, I think this damages cooperation between Italy and the US fighting the 'War on Terror'.

Added to the situation the inability of tsome of the defendents to produce classified documents as evidence and the fact that they were convicted in their absence, this trial seems to me to be nothing but a show put on by Italy.

I wouldn't expect any sharing of intel between the two countries now.

But as I said, this is very tricky for me, because snatching someone from a foreign country, with no trial, due process, against their will and without the permission of the host country, is surely wrong too.





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I may be mistaken but I don't think the Italian government has the, now convicted, agents in custody. I remember reading that they were tried "in absentia" and are considered fugitives.

Originally posted by kiwifoot


But as I said, this is very tricky for me, because snatching someone from a foreign country, with no trial, due process, against their will and without the permission of the host country, is surely wrong too.





news.bbc.co.uk
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I really doubt this was done without permission from the host country. If you notice the article does mention a couple of Italian secret service agents being found guilty also.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
I may be mistaken but I don't think the Italian government has the, now convicted, agents in custody. I remember reading that they were tried "in absentia" and are considered fugitives.

I think you are mistaken about them being fugitives.

reply to post by Bored To Tears


I think you're right in that were was 'knowledge' of the operation by Italian Intelligence and military, but as we know, that is patently different from having permission to carry it out.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
I may be mistaken but I don't think the Italian government has the, now convicted, agents in custody. I remember reading that they were tried "in absentia" and are considered fugitives.

Hey Shadow, you're right about the absentia thing, I did mention it briefly,was tucked away a bit though!

and the fact that they were convicted in their absence

reply to post by kiwifoot


Plausible deniability.

Hard to believe to Italian Secret Service Agents were actively involved without having permission.

reply to post by Bored To Tears


Up to a point, obviously they had permission. By that I man that the Italian Intelligence Head probably okayed it, but if they had carte blanche to perform rendition on Italian soil, I doubt they'd be up on charges.

Plausible deniability doesn't make it right, it just makes it so that politicians don't carry the can when it goes belly up!

I guess we'll never really know, the whole thing smacks of Italy being p'ed off at the US doing something without asking properly though.

I bet Berlusconi didn't get his cut, that's the issue!

The agents cannot travel to Italy..and maybe any euro union nation required to extradite wanted persons. The rest of the world will not sit by like we do and allow American corporate/military industrial/intelligence bosses to trample their territory.

It was NOT a military operation, it was a political one, most likley emanating from Cheney's office..where he personally ran an assassination squad. The CIA are pawns for the coup masters that pulled 9-11 off and put al of them on notice that they better shut up or get a dose of anthrax, like the senators that were objecting to the Patriot act and its crimes againt us.

It is so rotten at the top...so bad...that the average person could not comprehend how evil it is. Cheney is an example..the most vile, despicable, murdering, corrupt point man for the 9-11 perps..I will be very satisfied at some point in eternity to see dick Cheney dragged kicking and screaming to the edge of the bottomless pit..his twisted snarl frozen on a terrified face..he may escape justice here, but he is doomed.

And he is not alone.

reply to post by richierich


Got any proof to back up what you are saying I mean thats a lot of stuff to acuse people of

reply to post by kiwifoot


So where does this go from here? Are they going to actually pursue these "fugitives" or is this the end of the story? Maybe it was all just a show, to convince someone that the Italian government didn't approve of this type of thing.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
reply to post by kiwifoot

 

So where does this go from here? Are they going to actually pursue these "fugitives" or is this the end of the story? Maybe it was all just a show, to convince someone that the Italian government didn't approve of this type of thing.

I agree completely.

No way in hell the US is going to give these guys up.

I think it may damage US-Italian relations, which is bad news for Europe, if you buy into the whole Al-Qaeda thing, which personally I don't!

Originally posted by kiwifoot


I, like a lot of Members, have mixed feelings on this'

On one hand I can totally understand the anger and contempt the Italians have for this process and the arrogance of the CIA in carrying out this kind of operation on the soil of an independent nation.

However, these operatives were carrying out orders, that must have originated from the very highest levels of the US military establishment. Me personally, I think this damages cooperation between Italy and the US fighting the 'War on Terror'.

They were following orders in a job that they continue to choose to work in. They are not conscripted to follow orders. They are allowed at anytime to say "I quit" if their conscience so deems it.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by kiwifoot


I, like a lot of Members, have mixed feelings on this'

On one hand I can totally understand the anger and contempt the Italians have for this process and the arrogance of the CIA in carrying out this kind of operation on the soil of an independent nation.

However, these operatives were carrying out orders, that must have originated from the very highest levels of the US military establishment. Me personally, I think this damages cooperation between Italy and the US fighting the 'War on Terror'.

They were following orders in a job that they continue to choose to work in. They are not conscripted to follow orders. They are allowed at anytime to say "I quit" if their conscience so deems it.

I disagree I'm afraid.

It's not their job to ensure that an operation has been cleared with the appropriate authorities.

They follow orders.

If something obvious like asking them to slaughter prisoners or commit a war crime is asked of them, then you are right.

But CIA officers follow orders.

Political issues are the responsibility of their superiors.

Kiwifoot

The trial was a farce. The only people convicted were the ones who were not in Italy. Several Italian nationals had their charges dismissed and a few Americans had their charges dropped due to diplomatic immunity. Nobody is actually going to jail. I'll take any and all bets that if any of the people convicted in absentia go to Europe and are arrested for extradition, Italy will refuse extradition. This whole thing was a paperwork drill to pacify those Italians who thought that their sovreignty was violated.

i think it comes down to our image of who we are and what we stand for. on eone hand americans supposedly, have all these freedoms and rights etc.. yet we dont give thee same freedoms to the very people were supposedly trying to give the freedoms to!! i mean how hyporcritically is that? we wont allow any americans to be tried in foreign courts etc. we act like an empire because we are.. an imperialist, resource hogging, arrogant empire... an empire in delcine and the rest of the world knows it, we dont see this because were in america...

The court convicted the individuals but the government has never requested that the US extradite the individuals.

Seems like the court is on its own.

I don't see this hurting the relationship between the two country.