Saudi court upholds child rapist crucifixion ruling, page 9
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reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 08:39 AM by Kryties
reply to post by djvexd


I'm glad that you don't believe that I have no empathy toward the victim, particularly when I made a point of saying that in a previous post.

I am, however, disappointed that you would believe that the current system of the death penalty works, particularly when the cases of people being raped and murdered in death penalty countries keep rolling in. If the system worked, people would no longer be murdering or raping correct?

Thus, one must look at the system itself. One could say the system isn't harsh enough, but looking at other countries and cultures that have used a harsher punishment results in seeing that the murders and rapes continue. Thus, the only conclusion left to be made is that the punishment doesn't work at all and must be changed in order to stop raping and murdering.

Simple. Anyone who continues to advocate the death penalty, particularly when they know that the crimes continue to be perpetrated regardless, can no longer be said to be advocating a deterrent, but a revenge and bloodlust based punishment.

[edit on 4/11/2009 by Kryties]


reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 08:52 AM by djvexd
reply to post by Kryties


Here is the problem and probably the crux of the whole debate. How heinous and atrocious does a crime have to be to enable a"death penalty"? Some would say it should not be used at all. Some say shoplifting is a crime that warrants it. The point is, you are right, the crimes are still being commit, specifically child rape. However this is in westernized countries that are attempting to find a better way. And honestly if we can , I will back that. However the country that has done this extreme punishment has a lower rate of such act, but to be intellectually honest it probably is skewed because of the child marriage rate. In the U.S. child rapists are generally sentenced to maybe 5 years then supervison/ being put on a list. Okay they serve 2 years, then released to the public again. With a modicum of counselling and supervision some DO change . However I would argue that the bulk don't as is evident in the rate of recitivism. So how is that NOT a slap on the wrist?

[edit on 4-11-2009 by djvexd]


reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 09:01 AM by Kryties
reply to post by djvexd


While I am of the point of view that the death penalty does not work and is morally wrong, I also do not advocate giving them 5 years in jail then let them go. Obviously this doesn't work either.

What I am saying is that a whole new system of punishment needs to be devised, after much consideration of all the facts, that WILL act as a deterrent to rapists and murderers. I say this also knowing that there are some people who will perform the crime regardless of what punishment is applied, so therefore the said punishment I talk about should be inclusive of not only a deterrent against performing the crime, but also to contain and humanely deal with those that do.



reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 11:02 AM by jam321
reply to post by Kryties


Thus, one must look at the system itself. One could say the system isn't harsh enough, but looking at other countries and cultures that have used a harsher punishment results in seeing that the murders and rapes continue.


Just because rapes and murders continue doesn't mean capital punishment isn't working.

We don't have the stats to prove how many rapes were deterred or how many murders were avoided due to one's desire not to face capital punishment.

What if there was overwhelming proof that rapes and murders were not committed because of fear of capital punishment, would it change your mind that the system isn't working?


reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 11:04 AM by 27jd
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
That's not a defense of them sir, that's a defense of my own humanity and civilized nature which I won't be giving up or encouraging anyone else to any time soon.


Call it whatever you want. It's just very hard to believe, after page after page after page of long, drawn out posts to each and every member (only johnny 5 would have enough time to read them in their entirety) that supports death for child predators, that you don't have something personal invested in convincing them to turn the other cheek when it comes to the rapes and murders of kids. It looks like CYA-ing. You do it in EVERY thread about child predators.

I'm glad though, to see there are MANY parents who feel the same as i do. It must be frustrating to you, and maybe even frightening. But it's the way it is, we are willing to defend our children like bears do, brutally mauling those who threaten them. The saudis have it right on this issue, wrong on everything else, but right in this case. I'm supportive of people living whatever kind of lifestyle they wish, as long as they don't victimize others. The only instances in which i support going backwards in evolution, is when it comes to people who find pleasure in victimizing the innocent. Zero tolerance. Of course, guilt would need to be proven beyond any reasonable doubt. If their last agonizing moments act to deter even a few of the more cowardly child predators from taking a chance, then it's well worth it.

Also friend, you grossly overuse sarcastic pleasantries. Most of us are not ghandi or jesus, and feel there are times to embrace hate, the most appropriate being when a pervert victimizes our children for no reason other than their personal pleasure. This planet is about balance, without hate there can be no love. To compare our actions as equally ghastly to theirs, is completely assinine. They SEEK OUT to commit ghastly acts against children, again, for their own pleasure. As parents, we would like nothing more than to NEVER have to cross paths with a child predator. We don't seek them out, we want them to leave our families alone. There would be no pleasure, only rage and vengence. You know, the same rage and vengence that many use to justify the reasoning behind terrorism when people lose their families to indiscriminate military bombings.


reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 12:00 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by 27jd


I joined Above Top Secret to discuss conspiracies my friend.

I am glad this thread has been moved finally to where it belonged in the first place.

There is always a conspiracy afoot. I outlined the one involved with this for those people who have the time, patience and inclination to read.

Now that the thread is where non-conspiracy minded people can debate this divide and conquer issue to their own detriment I must bid you farewell.

It's nice to know based on the first page theories put forth the majority of people don't favor barbaric forms of punishment.

They see them for what they are. Maybe one day you will too.

Until we meet again friend, rest assured your greatest enemy lurks within you not in my quarter!

Ciao

Hail Caesar!



reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 12:33 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by 27jd


Oh one more little thing friend, that seems to escape a good many Americans posting to the thread.

We don't condone or allow cruel and unusual punishment for crimes per our Constitution.

We respect people's right to free speech per our Constitution.

Having a little trouble with the Constitution and American Principles much these days?

Seems like a lot of people are and oh does it show!


reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 01:20 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by 27jd


Obviously you must miss news accounts of executions being frozen by the Supreme Court when an Electric Chair or Gas Chamber malfunctions!

Thankfully the Surpreme Court is a bit more objective than your desire to be subjective!

If you don't consider beheading and crucifying someone to be unusual I guess you are a Muslim from Saudi Arabia?

We don't actually do such things in America and never have, and never will.

Give my regards to the King friend.


reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 02:19 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by 27jd


Could have fooled me my Sharia Law loving friend!

Florida couldn't execute anyone for 16 months a couple years back because of concerns about old sparkie!

Now you have a choice between old sparkie and lethal injection.

I guess you guys don't have that in Saudi Arabia?


reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 02:31 PM by 27jd
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Yeah, i guess you got me pegged. Guess it's time to put an end to the 5 year facade here on ATS, i know when my cover is blown, apparently you don't though, lol.

مع السلامة


reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 02:57 PM by berenike
I've been giving a lot of thought to the punishment / retribution / deterrent debate and have a suggestion.

I was trying to think of something that would be within the law and give satisfaction to the victim's family, or the victim themselves if they survived a crime. It's distressing if the victim or their family leave a court and feel that the sentence was too lenient and i wonder if they'd feel better if they had a say in the punishment.

So, taking a murdering rapist as an example, I'd suggest three (well publicised) forms of punishment:

death penalty / life imprisonment / castration together with a shorter than life sentence

Now, it's my feeling that a would-be murdering rapist might think twice if they knew that if they were caught their victim's family would have the right to decide what the punishment should be.

Speaking for myself, I don't know which of the three options I've suggested would be worse. I don't know which would seem worse to the criminal or which would seem worse to the family of the victim either.

So it's a bit of a lottery. The perpetrator would have to rely on the humanity of the victim, who might not be feeling particularly humane at the time. (And wouldn't know which of the punishment the perpetrator feared the most).

I think people should also be able to waive their right to decide on the punishment if they felt that they couldn't live with having to make the choice.

It might not be a perfect solution, but I think it's worth a shot.

Going on to Saudi Arabia, I was watching a programme on TV recently made by an English reporter. She was in the country and asked a Saudi official about their capital punishment. He made it very clear that the death penalty was only carried out if the victim's family wanted it. The decision was theirs, not the States.

[edit on 4-11-2009 by berenike]


reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 03:10 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by berenike


I agree that the victim should have a say. I disagree that punishment deters crime as death row is full in most states and prisons and jails are full of people who didn't believe they were ever going to get caught and most of them didn't even know or care what the punishment would be for the crime before they committed it.

I like Auntie M's Bust a Deal face the Wheel concept in Road Warrior Mad Max beyond Thunder Dome, any breaking of your contract meant spinning the wheel and everything from getting off (blind luck) or instant death, or trials and tribulations that could lead to a slow death or random fate perhaps intervening.

That gives a whole new meaning to Clint Eastwood's do you feel lucky do you, do you?

I also kind of favor the God Father II form of punishment. When the baker came and wanted vengence for his raped daughter the Don said no death is not an option, if he raped someone, we rape him back!

Ultimately what a lot of posters miss on this thread is you do not want to go to Prison as a rapist, a rapist murderer, or a child molester.

The prisoners take care of someone like Jeffrey Dahmler real quick in prison.

Adding to your karmic debt in obscene ways when karma will actually straighten it out all by itself?

Foolish if you ask me.

Letting the victim have a big say is a form of Karmic Justice and I am all in favor of that friend.

Thanks for sharing.

[edit on 4/11/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]


reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 04:14 PM by berenike
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I haven't seen Mad Max or The Godfather. I couldn't escape when Dirty Harry was on TV recently, though. I stuck my head into the computer and pretended it wasn't happening

I don't like violent movies or computer games. I don't mind pretend violence like Buffy or Babylon 5. And I love boxing.

That's the point, really. I don't like having to even be in the same room with a truly violent movie, but I would consider the execution of a criminal. I've even suggested castration as a fitting punishment.

I know someone who was in prison for a couple of years, long ago, and he worked in the kitchens while he was there. He told me that other prisoners would do filthy things to the food of sex offenders to the point that he started to feel sorry for them.

Even knowing what they'd done he couldn't bear seeing them not being able to eat their food. When he told me, I felt sorry for them too. And yet, if I was put in a room with one and invited to kick the living daylights out of them, I could probably do it.

I dunno - I suppose I don't like to think of people being tortured day in and day out in petty ways, but I do agree that they should be punished.

Appropriately punished is what I mean. Somehow a good kicking seemed to fit the bill, as long as they could have a decent meal afterwards

I did note that you are about the only person who has said that they would take a share of the blame if their child had been left unguarded long enough to fall victim to a predator or a bully.

I think that's extremely commendable. If only my parent had had a similar outlook.

She used to leave my brother and me with a male teenaged babysitter who used to torment us. Until one evening I left the house (in my pyjamas) and knocked on a neighbour's door, standing on their doorstep crying and begging for help.

I don't know why we never told our mother what had been happening. Possibly we feared that she would be cross with us because it would ruin her future nights out if she couldn't find someone to 'look after' us. Ironically, we were really good little kids and could have been left alone without ever getting ourselves into any mischief, and we'd have been a lot safer.

I'm including that little story as a cautionary tale for any parents reading this. It isn't great to place your trust in other people to look after your kids and if your child is being abused or bullied they will have many reasons not to tell you. Kids will try and take a lot on their shoulders to try and 'protect' a parent.

Karma? I'm doing my best not to incur too much bad karma. It's a strange thing, you try to live in such a way that you don't hurt any living creature, but there's always that thought, is it enough? Should I be doing more than just trying not to add to the problems of the world?


reply posted on 4-11-2009 @ 09:44 PM by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by berenike


An excellent post my friend. I don't care much for gratuitous violence.

I was a big Babylon 5 fan by the way. It had the best plot twists!

It says a lot of wonderful things about you that you are that compassionate and thoughtful even on difficult subjects where many people have none.

Prison can be a pretty tough place and the prisoners have their own rules and brand of justice for dealing with what goes on in their own little world.

Pirson is no cake walk for a sexual offender that's for sure.

One thing about my wife, the moment we had our first child she never allowed anyone to babysit any of them. Not even relatives. If we couldn't take them with us if we were going some place, well we just didn't go there if it wasn't possible.

I had a 350 pound baby sitter sit on me as a kid when ever she got frustrated with my brothers or sister. The worst part about is she rarely bathed! Yuck!

Supervising kids better is the real key in my opinion. It's hard for them to get raped, molested or murdered when you always have an eye on them.

I personally don't think people should have kids if they aren't in a position to rear them safely.

Too many end up runaways, throw aways or latch key kids.

Most of societies problems are truly educational related not penal related.

Crime flourishes because we create the social conditions for it as a society.

If everyone had work, decent food, housing, and medicine and transportation most of the reasons to commit crimes would go out the window.

It these huge international corporations that monopolize so much of the business world and employment market that make these staggering profits actually paid people a living wage, a parent could afford to stay home and actual raise and rear their children decently and properly.

Rather than fix what's really wrong with our society we have this crazy notion that just punishing people more severely or killing them will fix it.

I don't think it will friend. It never has.

Thanks for putting some real thought and empathy into your post.

It's a refreshing breath of fresh air.


reply posted on 5-11-2009 @ 08:42 AM by berenike
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I think you've dared to say the unsayable. And it's not just about protecting kids from predators.

How many people who are now locked away and labelled as monsters could have escaped that fate if only their parents had taken more trouble to guide and protect them?

Even though so many are working long hours to make ends meet time can still be found to instill some values into children.

Taking a few minutes to read a bedtime story and asking how the child's day has been when they're sleepy and possibly unguarded could reap huge rewards in terms of nipping problems in the bud.

Having meals together at the dinner table gives children a chance to learn how to behave in company, which gives them an advantage.

Poor little things who have never been taught the correct way to interact with people. How are they expected to cope in social situations when they can't be confident of doing the right thing so as not to show themselves up?

And then they grow up frustrated with their lack of confidence and society's rejection of the socially inept and they're big enough to fight back. Except they look for a smaller, weaker target to take their anger out on.

I find that's a huge problem in society - people unable or unwilling to be angry with the person (or government or corporation) who has actually done damage to them so they just take it out on someone else.

And that's just 'normal' aggression and anti-social behaviour. Not even touching on the sort of treatment or neglect that results in a person becoming a sexual predator.

I think your kids are lucky to have you and your wife and I hope they realise it. It's great that you don't go anywhere unless the kids can come too.

I don't even like leaving my dog on his own for more than a couple of hours and when I thought my ex-housemate was playing too roughly with him I made sure he didn't get the chance again.

I found he (the dog) responded well to firmer handling too, when he started to want his own way a bit too much.

Dogs and kids need structure and guidance administered with a firm, fair hand. I'd suggest that's the best foundation to help keep them out of trouble and can be achieved even if the parent can't be with them 24 hours a day.
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