Saudi court upholds child rapist crucifixion ruling

Originally posted by Kryties
Being accused of having no empathy for the victim in other threads is NOT an assumption mate, it is FACT.

Don't worry I wont judge you.

Yes, it is my opinion, but I will not be silenced for having it - as you have tried to do not only by telling me to "get off my soapbox" but also by attempting to make it look like I am deflecting the topic

By trying to drag the US into this you have. The topic was Saudi Arabia upholding their laws. I have stated I have no issues with the beheading and have also stated that I thought the crucifixion was too much. "Over the Top"

your continual assertions that I have not are only making your argument weaker by the minute.

Give me a break.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
By trying to drag the US into this you have. The topic was Saudi Arabia upholding their laws. I have stated I have no issues with the beheading and have also stated that I thought the crucifixion was too much. "Over the Top"

How is one supposed to discuss Death Penalty laws without discussing those other countries, other than Saudi Arabia, that still use that punishment? This thread is SET in Saudi Arabia but it's topic is the DEATH PENALTY - and it's application in that particular country. In order to make a valid and researched argument against it, one must look at those same practices in other countries, compare them to the country we are talking about and see if there is any similarities or differences, what they are and how they are any different to those countries who abolished the death penalty. Then, and only then, can one say that they have fully researched the topic and can make a good argument for or against it. Anything less than this is poor research work, poor logic and poor arguments.


Oh and you are reacting as if all my comments were directed at you. They were not, you just happen to be the only one responding to them at this time.

[edit on 4/11/2009 by Kryties]

Originally posted by Kryties
Oh and you are reacting as if all my comments were directed at you. They were not, you just happen to be the only one responding to them at this time.

Originally posted by Kryties
This, of course, coming from the man who lives in a country in which many states still support the death penalty - yet still has equal amounts of murder and rape than those states (and other countries) that don't.

Originally posted by Kryties
don't give me that crap about "each to his own" and "respect other countries" as the United States has a foreign policy of interfering with just about every other nation on Earth, trying to inject "democracy" into even those countries that don't want to know about it.

Yeah it's not about the US. Gotcha.


[edit on 4-11-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by Kryties


The problem I see with the death penalty as it is practiced in Saudi Arabia is the inherent inhumane brutality of the entire ordeal. Not only is someone beheaded, which in my opinion is disturbing enough. But then the body is put on display for all to see. Men women and children.

To me this is backwards thinking. After all, this is the 21st century, not the middle ages.

Certainly there has to be a better way to punish such an obviously terrible monster. What this man did is heinous by any definition of the word. But to decapitate and put the lifeless body of this monster on display for all to see?

If your going to kill the man, do it quickly. If he is deserving of death, (which I won't argue he probably is) then by all means just shoot him like the dog he is and be done with it.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Yeah it's not about the US. Gotcha.

You are STILL trying to make it out as if discussion of US death penalty laws is not relevant to this topic. I have even given you the courtesy of explaining why this is so and yet you obviously you have no intelligent reply other than to reinforce your delusion that I am making this "all about the US". That's absolutely pathetic mate.

Cmon guys, Other posters have listed stats on death penalty in other countries etc.
Lets move on from each other, pretty pls?
With a cherry on top?

reply to post by whatukno


I see your point of view, although I do not agree with it in it's entirety. I believe that yes, Saudi Arabia's way of metering out the death penalty punishment is harsher than the US's, and other countries who support the death penalty - but the whole idea of "eye for an eye" punishment, no matter how it is metered out, is appalling to me and makes the punishers into glorified versions of the accused.

Originally posted by whatukno
If your going to kill the man, do it quickly. If he is deserving of death, (which I won't argue he probably is) then by all means just shoot him like the dog he is and be done with it.

Exactly.

Contrary to popular opinion lopping off the head is more humane than what we do here in the states, Gassing, Electric chair or a hanging.

The Crucifixion I agree is too much.
In my opinion.

reply to post by whatukno


Hey Wukky

My personal opinion is:
Penalty for crime doesnt have to match the crime.
I ask myself these questions:
Is brutal revenge a punishment? OR is it a personal satisfaction for those left behind....never is, doesn't wipe the pain or loss.

Should we waste a cent on these criminals to rehabilitate? Prolly not.

Is it a detterant, nope, crime is just as high where there is capital punishment.

Does the abilty to perform these punishments corrupt the system, yes defn. Saudi has hung a girl of 16 for being raped....where does one draw the line for the type of punishment.

Should the person be simply removed from society by death without mirroring the brutality. For me no, I prefer to pay to punish them by leaving them in a cell with nothing on a island.

So from that last point, Should punishment ensue as a lifelong imprisonment? I think that is punishment. Death is not, we all die. We are giving them what happens to all of us.

We need to consider the following points against each other.
Punishment
Revenge
Justice
Cost
Morality.

[edit on 4-11-2009 by zazzafrazz]

This is a difficult topic, because it is so very emotional to any parent. I am a mother of three children myself, and if one of my children had been raped or even worse, murdered, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have turned into a raging monster. I would want the rapist or killer to suffer, of course I would. It is instinct, it is human nature.

But to give the offender the death penalty, to murder that person, no matter if it is done in a "humane" way or not. would not make what happened go away. It would not undo the damage to my child, it would not bring my child back to life... Two wrongs would not make a right.

And personally I don't think any state, country or government should ever have the power to kill its own's citizens. Power can end up in the wrong hands, power can be abused. Some day it could be OK to give a dissident, a political "troublemaker" the death penalty. Anyone remember Stalin?

Just my 2 and perhaps naive cents.

Two points.

1) Some of those here defending the sentence have also in the past expressed their contempt of the middle-east, because in their mind, the muslim culture is backwards and barabaric. Strange that such a reversal has occurred. In fact, in a previous thread, where they actually got to see public beheadings, they were appalled. Would they have been so if those executed had been paedophiles ? This leads me to believing that many reactions here only point out how people are swinging on an emotional hinge. Laws were created for preventing this, which is why the death penalty is legally abhorrant. It only serves the purpose of revenge which is basically satisfing peoples emotional response. And although being permanantly "deterrent" for the convicted, statistics worldwide show it is in no way deterrent for others. It's like going to see your mommy with a cut hand. Sure she'll make you feel better by kissing it, but maybe if she had'nt left that kitchen knife lying around, it would'nt have happened. It's better to prevent than to cure.

2) This is not off topic, nor for the purpose of trolling. Just to give more weight to what I'm saying above. Many people here, after say, 9/11, wanted war waged on the awfull barbaric terrorists who attacked their country. Needless to say, that unless they were perfectly naive, they understood that war in it's self, as allways, and the extreme poverty it would bring with it, would kill and maim a great many children. Explain please, how this sits with your views on paedophilia. In both cases, children's lives are destroyed. If they survive, they are mentaly and sometimes physically crippled for life. What is the only difference ? The guys who drop the bombs are not specificaly targeting the children. However, they know that inevitably, there will be "collateral damage", and some will be kids.

Think on that for awhile. Here you are foaming at the mouth because this "monster" molested and killed some children. Yet some of you have also condoned war, which is way more devastating to children than one lone paedophile. Your response is purely emotional, and perfectly irrational, since you do not focus the same hate on the greatest childkillers of all times, the military. No, those are considered as "heroes", by some of you, and your society. Illogical.




[edit on 4-11-2009 by Ismail]

Originally posted by sos37

Originally posted by Shadowflux
The typical argument in favor of this type of thing is that it helps to deter and prevent crime.

Screw that. In this case it's justice.

A 3 year old child raped and left to die in the desert, which they did. THREE YEARS OLD.

My need to coddle any feelings goes out the window when I see crap like that.

Problem is that 3 year old is now 7 years old and is the one who helped the authorities convict the bloke.

There is a lot of margin for error.

Other than that, if the guy is guilty and there is no doubt at all, then slowly soaking him in acid would be my preferred choice. No mercy.

reply to post by Donnie Darko


Hi Donnie,

How are you?

You know what - in my heart I say YES, torture the bastard, Yes make him suffer what he made those kids suffer, YES YES YES.

In my head, I say, lethal injection.

So does the heart rule, or the head? I have capitals on the heart opinion, and no capitals on the head opinion - so the heart wins. I am not proud of this, and I should not feel this way, but I do.

I completely agree that there is a need for justice, no doubt about it. He was a predator of the worst type and needed to be dealt with, period. (if he really was and not convicted in the shoddy Saudi way)

However, how is beheading and/or crucifying someone "justice" ? I suppose it sends a message, but apart from, capital punishment, what's the message? We'll kill you and not just nicely, but in a very cruel way?

Instead, for justice to be served, convict him in a court of law, prove his guilt and then take him to a field and put two bullets in his head. Quick, easy and very cheap. Job done.

Why do people feel that he needs to suffer as his victims did? Do you (who agree with the type of punishment) require satisfaction through violence as the criminal did? What does that say about you?

Is it not enough that two bullets in his head keeps him from ever doing such a horrible act again, which might also deride others if they know they will face death?

I'm not in any way saying he didnt deserve death. But it seems to me that people who seem to relish in *how* he was put to death are just as eager to support (extreme) violent behaviour as this criminal did.

Begs the question, what is the purpose of justice in society?

Is it institutionalised revenge?

Is it deterrent?

Is it to give the victims a sense of retribution?

Is it to put the general public at ease?

Or, all of the above?

reply to post by noonebutme


Where was he when it came to 'cruel'? He was right there, doing that.

OMG anyone who hurts children should be strung up.

Please let kids live in innocence and love.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by noonebutme

 

Where was he when it came to 'cruel'? He was right there, doing that.

OMG anyone who hurts children should be strung up.

Please let kids live in innocence and love.

Again, I still agree the guy needed to be punished and death was correct. I question the 'lust' that people seem to exhibit in the way in which he died, taking an almost perverse sense of satisfaction to watch a human being's life end in such a way, regardless of what he did.

It's as though punishing and torturing him would somehow 'fix' the tragedy these children suffered and make things right. And if that does make things 'right' in the mids of the victims or the parents - what the hell does that say about people? Pretty bad, IMO.

And my opinion has nothing to do with kids living in innocence and love - I would argue that beheading a man or crucifying him as a means of capital punishment does the opposite, in the long run.

Just so people aren't miscontruing what I'm suggesting. I am certainly NOT saying the guy shoudl be pitied, or let off or given hugs and cuddled. He deserves the full punishment of the law, whether it be life in prison or execution - which in this case is appropriate as we really don't need people like that in society. (But that's opinion based).

All I'm trying to say is justice and revenge/retribution are not the same, and no civilised society should blur the line between them (true, we are talking about Saudi Arabia which is not the most up to date society in the civilised sense)

If people are looking for justice, the judge him, and if he's guilty, convict him and if deemed appropriate (which it is in this case), execute him. But do it clinically and efficiently - without emotion.

If people want to see him suffer, to feel pain and torture, then that implies it isn't justice. It's revenge, retribution. Which is motivated by hate, anger and blind emotion. That's what my point - those that seek 'justice' and believe themselves to be better than this criminal, want to employ some horrible in ending his life, as though it makes up for the loss of a child and the abuse to the others.

Seems horribly askew to me..

reply to post by Kryties


But I bet your country has abortion doesnt it? How can abortion be right and the death pentalty be wrong.

reply to post by mattpryor


Good point, Matt.

...2nd line...