Is Yahweh the Supreme Creator or an Evil God?

a reply to: spy66
So you're saying we couldn't really be sure then, if Moses was communicating with a good "God", or with an evil entity [we can, btw]?
Yet you reference the Bible, which states outright that he communicated with the "supreme God" and no one else.
Hmmm....seems the Bible can't be trusted, other than as a reference to how a dishonest entity would communcate with us.
Fact is, the act of Moses is EVIL. Killing women and children except for the "little girls" which the hebrews could keep as #meat for themselves. The Bible states YHWH is the one who communicated with him. If the Bible is "inspired" by a spiritual entity, this entity would then have to be evil, since the Bible puts preassure on people to accept it as "The Word of God", when it's clearly a proponent of evil.

Problem solved, do you want another perspective on this? I've got thousands of reason why YHWH AND his son Jesus are evil or uncaring entities IF they exist.

originally posted by: malmanomar
a reply to: spy66
So you're saying we couldn't really be sure then, if Moses was communicating with a good "God", or with an evil entity [we can, btw]?
Yet you reference the Bible, which states outright that he communicated with the "supreme God" and no one else.
Hmmm....seems the Bible can't be trusted, other than as a reference to how a dishonest entity would communcate with us.
Fact is, the act of Moses is EVIL. Killing women and children except for the "little girls" which the hebrews could keep as #meat for themselves. The Bible states YHWH is the one who communicated with him. If the Bible is "inspired" by a spiritual entity, this entity would then have to be evil, since the Bible puts preassure on people to accept it as "The Word of God", when it's clearly a proponent of evil.

Problem solved, do you want another perspective on this? I've got thousands of reason why YHWH AND his son Jesus are evil or uncaring entities IF they exist.

The Bible is a book mixed With truths and lies. It has been tampered With.

I agree, what Moses did was evil. There are verses in the bible that state you will know God by his love. Killing People and accepting slavery is not love.

God is not the only one on the stage. The angel of light was cast out of heaven into Earth. The Angel of light also Plays this game of Good and Evil.

quoting an obscure text to prove an obscure text?

um...ok.

tail-chase much?

this was one of the better 'is the bible fake' topics i've found here

recently i've been doing some digging on this 'covering cherub'

the most known reference seems to be in the book of ezekial (28:14)

"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

(there was some more in the book of revelation & the book of isaiah)

there's one particular reference to this covering cherub i found in the bible that also makes me question the identity of the old-testament deity.. unfortunately i didn't make a note of it (and searching for it now on the internet doesn't seem to be helping)

the reference might have been in isaiah? (pretty sure it was in the OT)
it was describing this covering cherub being involved in the day to day affairs of the hebrew people..
(if anyone can help with this, that'd be nice.. there must be some kind of FUNCTIONING bible search engine out there? the one i'm using now has found 0 instances of the word 'cherub' in the bible!?)

a reply to: UNIT76
Hi -
I can't help you with your specific question, but I know a couple of YouTube uploads that deal with whether the Bible is fake or not.

The Old Testament:
www.youtube.com...

The New Testament:
www.youtube.com...

a reply to: malmanomar

if your sig's any indication i know how this is gonna turn out
i'll check them out when i gots me some bandwidth, thanks for the reply..

a reply to: UNIT76
No, they're quite academic. The first one is only 10 min. long and is made by a former christian, a very sympathetic fellow, who also has a lot of other interesting videos on his channel. He's not hostile at all. My signature adresses something completely different than the validity of the Bible, it adresses the personalities of YHW and Jesus.

"The Bible with sources revealed"
en.wikipedia.org...

About the book:
"The core of the book, taking up almost 300 of its approximately 380 pages in the paperback edition, is Friedman's own translation of the five Pentateuchal books, in which the four sources plus the contributions of the two Redactors (of the combined JE source and the later redactor of the final document) are indicated typographically. The remaining sections include a short Introduction outlining Friedman's thesis, a "Collection of Evidence," and a bibliography.

Friedman's version of the documentary hypothesis can be summarised as follows: The first source to be written down was the Jahwist, or J. This occurred in Judah, the southern of the two Israelite kingdoms, in the period between 922-722 BC. (Friedman's arguments are dealt with below). The Elohist, or E, was composed in roughly the same period, but probably a little later than J, in the northern kingdom of Israel. In 722 BC the Assyrian conquest of Israel brought E to Judah with refugees from the northern kingdom.

Shortly after this a redactor combined the two into a standard text, JE, the redactor himself being known as RJE. Then in the reign of Hezekiah, c.715-687 BC, the Jerusalem priesthood produced a text which they saw as a replacement for JE, the theology of which was objectionable to their project of religious reform: this was the Priestly source, or P. Hezekiah's reform program failed, but was revived in the reign of his great-grandson Josiah, c. 640-609 BC, producing the last source, the Deuteronomist, or D. The three sources (JE now counting as a single source) existed independently until the return from the Babylonian exile, when a final redactor, R, combined them.

The "Collection of Evidence" section sets out Friedman's arguments for the documentary hypothesis in general and for his own version of it in particular. He notes seven arguments:

Linguistic: each source (treating JE as a single source) reflects the Hebrew of its period.
Terminology: Certain words and phrases appear disproportionately, or exclusively, in certain sources.
Consistent content: Certain concepts, objects, and practices are specific to certain sources.
Continuity of texts: When separated into sources following linguistic, terminological and contextual clues, each source constitutes a coherent, self-contained narrative.
Connections with other parts of the Bible: Each source has direct, non-indiscriminate affinities with other specific parts of the Bible.
Relationships of sources to each other and to history: The sources each have connections to specific circumstances in the history of Israel/Judah, and to each other.
Comparison with Wellhausen[edit]
As Friedman himself says in his Who Wrote the Bible?, when a scholar agrees with the documentary hypothesis, he agrees with Wellhausen; when he wishes to propose a new model of the hypothesis, he compares it with Wellhausen.[1] Friedman agrees with Wellhausen on the identity of the four sources, and on the identification of certain possible or probable authors: Jeremiah and/or his scribe, Baruch ben Neriah, as the author of D, Ezra as the Redactor. (These identifications in fact were made long before Wellhausen: the identification of the Redactor with Ezra can be traced to Spinoza in the 17th century or even Jerome in the 4th). Where he departs most radically from Wellhausen is in dating P to the time of Hezekiah, almost a century before Josiah and the D source. Wellhausen's placing of P after D, so that the sequence of sources was JEDP, was crucial to the view of the development of Israelite religion from original polytheism to Judaic monotheism; Friedman's reordering of the sources is thus his major challenge to Wellhausen's model, as it undermines Wellhausen's thesis that the Priestly Code represents the final development of a priest-centred religious practice. Friedman's dating of J to the time of the divided kingdom - Wellhausen put it in the 10th century BC rather than the 8th - is also novel, but less so than his ordering of the sources.

Critical assessment[edit]
The documentary hypothesis as defined by Wellhausen, having dominated critical thinking on the origin of the Pentateuch, came into increasing question from the late 1960s onwards as alternative models - supplementary and fragmentary rather than the discrete documents of the DH paradigm - were put forward. Friedman's book is thus in one sense an answer to these critics, and perhaps especially to R. N. Whybray, whose 1987 The Making of the Pentateuch had concluded that the tools by which the documentary model distinguished its supposed documents were fundamentally faulty: how could they suppose, he asked, that the authors of each of the four so-called source documents had not tolerated inconsistency, but that the two redactors had had no problems with it?

Scholars as eminent as Baruch Halpern and Michael D. Coogan (editor of The New Oxford Annotated Bible) welcomed The Bible with Sources Revealed as an indispensable teaching tool; nevertheless, Friedman's departures from Wellhausen have been criticised by his professional colleagues on several grounds, not least for ignoring all other models and all advances in scholarship outside his preferred documentary model, the review in the Review of Biblical Literature noting: "It is basic for the understanding of biblical literary history that the Supplementary Hypothesis is the 'normal hypothesis' (even within the Pentateuch) and that the Documentary Hypothesis (i.e., the fusion of two literary sources) is only a notable exception." (See also fragmentary hypothesis for the third major text-critical approach to the Pentateuch's authorship.)

More specifically, he was criticised for ignoring evidence that P did not precede Deuteronomy, for an arbitrary approach to his assignment of sources, and for failing to note or argue with scholarship that does not support his argument. On the other hand, his close examination of R (and RJE) was welcomed as innovative and useful, as was his schematisation of the arguments in favour of the documentary model.[2]

References[edit]
Jump up ^ Paraphrase from Friedman's "Who Wrote the Bible?", pp. 26-27 of 1997 edition (original edition 1987).
Jump up ^ Review by Christof Levin, Review of Biblical Literature, RBL06/2006."

Cool thread OP..

I am a bit tired...sorry to keep it short..here it is..

Well i believe yawweh is not the supreme creator from where the study leads me..please read the 'Wes Penre' free ebook/papers @wespenre.com, this will explain all and what 'we' Humans are currently up against and have been for millenia..i am not sure where the explanation of who yahweh is,starts..but i advise reading them from the beginning for the full picture..incidently,as Wes' studies indicate..yahweh is seeming to be the same entity/being/individual as satan,enki (sumerien god') allah,also represented by certain individuals in roman,greek,egyptian mythology and so on...check it out its a must read..

Hello. Jeff here. I have lived from my childhood until my early adult-hood believing in the Apostolic way. Jesus is God and there is no question. Oneness Pentecostals, as I have been in my past, believe that the Jehovah of the OT is the revealed God of the New Testament. I can honestly say that I do not believe this anymore.
The "god" of the OT is a jealous, vengeful, and 'I'm gonna pay you back if you don't serve me" kinda mentality. I truly and honestly believe that the "god" of the OT is not the "god" of the NT. They both are far in between. If someone can say any different, then please do so. Blessed be. Jeff Edwards

Because of another topic i came to read something mentioned at the end of revelation 17.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

The thing about the Bible is that it is a timeline of human Activity. In other Words Our human history from the beginning to its end have been pre planned from the very beginning. Some might not agree because they dont understand how to view the big Picture.

If everything started With the singularity. All the Properties that have now become Our reality, Our universe were already present within the singularity when it was formed. Nothing have been added and nothing have been taken away. The singularity only expanded and made room for Our existence to appear at the right time. The singularity has a timeline as well. We Call it history.

We dont have free will to make Our own choices if God have put it into Our harts to fulfil his will. Revelation 17;17.
So if you are one of them who dont believe in God. You were never ment to believe in God. It was put in Your hart not to.

Is this evil? From a human perspective it would be because who ever is not written in the book of life. Will not get a second chance at life. This must have been pre planned from the beginning as well. If Your name is not in the book of life it was never ment for you to have a chance at second life, but to furfil Gods will. Is this evil? In reality it dosent matter what we think We dont controll Our faith. We are just playing the role that was given to us.

Some how it seams like God is testing what he have created to see if his final plan will work out. He is using us to see if we can be trusted to function according to his will. It didnt work out to well With Adam and Eve. But from that day on everythng have been going according to history.

People don't realise that the bible is not the precise account of the past, simply because it was not written at the time by an impartial reporter. I was told at school that the Jewish scribes wrote everything exactly as it was and it was copied word for word throughout the centuries - so what the bible said was God's message to us.

However, the truth is that it was written hundreds of years after certain events, which had been told around camp fires and often melded together for political reasons to try to mould into one group a lot of very different peoples, with family heads and different backgrounds and beliefs.

Yahweh talks to others like himself in the Garden of Eden and if he were the creator of the world, just ask yourself why did he need to keep all the other people out of the Garden of Eden by an armed so-called autobot? There should have been no others on the planet if the Adam was the first man. Because religion is drummed in as a child before we develop the power to reason, we accept it and its a pretty nasty trick to play on a child, because religion has always had to power to terrify people and children and it should be a topic of education with a warning.

I have read that Lucifer the Bringer of Light / Saturn / Satan was the builder sent by God to 'build' the planet. Now whether one considers this to be the physical slinging dust and mud together to form a ball or more likely a form of intelligent design to implant into this world then that's up to you or any other theory you wish. But our records of YHWH and his recorded actions need to be considered in the light of the above, not absolute history. Also an important question that I think one needs to get their head around is - is YHWH a military leader or a creator God - there is a great difference if you think about it. Alighn the thought also that the Jewish people wanted a military Messiah to rid them of the Romans when much of what would make up the bible nearly 900 years later when it was put together and some of YHWH's actions make sense. I also recommend yhou read the Book of Jasper and see that El Shaddai was actually a man whom gave Moses the Ten Commandments - which were not original but borrowed from another culture. You will see then why this book was deliberately excluded from the bible. Along with the Egyptian and Mesopotanean lineage of many of the people who led and tried to forge a nation of Jews, they weren't actually Jewish - which questions the blood lines.

It was all a very long time ago and its relating religion with today's world that counts because the origins are obscured in time. But if you look at the effect of religious fervour and the slaughter its bringing down on people it is something we have to confront whether we wish to be involved in religious thought or not, unless we want to be dragged back to the past by modern warfare.

originally posted by: spy66


We dont have free will to make Our own choices if God have put it into Our harts to fulfil his will. Revelation 17;17.
So if you are one of them who dont believe in God. You were never ment to believe in God. It was put in Your hart not to.

Is this evil? From a human perspective it would be because who ever is not written in the book of life. Will not get a second chance at life. This must have been pre planned from the beginning as well. If Your name is not in the book of life it was never ment for you to have a chance at second life, but to furfil Gods will. Is this evil? In reality it dosent matter what we think We dont controll Our faith. We are just playing the role that was given to us.

Some how it seams like God is testing what he have created to see if his final plan will work out. He is using us to see if we can be trusted to function according to his will. It didnt work out to well With Adam and Eve. But from that day on everythng have been going according to history.

You are contradicting yourself here. First you say there is no free will. Then you say that God is seeing if it works out. But if there is no free will then the only factor of it working out, is God's programming into the robots that he makes. Then those that didn't have any free will in the first place get tortured for all eternity after.

And yes this view is evil. This is a disgusting god that must die. As if the creator of the universe was so petty as to make little playthings for him to watch burn. Why would it matter if there was a book of life or not, or even why should there even be a bible to tell people if they have no choice?

Please brother(sister?) I used to believe in this same god who destined some to life and some to torture. That is a devil, a demon, an imagination, a god made in your (my) image. I believe God has a plan yes, but to say that He would create some who have no choice, and then they are punished is horrendous.

originally posted by: zardust

originally posted by: spy66


We dont have free will to make Our own choices if God have put it into Our harts to fulfil his will. Revelation 17;17.
So if you are one of them who dont believe in God. You were never ment to believe in God. It was put in Your hart not to.

Is this evil? From a human perspective it would be because who ever is not written in the book of life. Will not get a second chance at life. This must have been pre planned from the beginning as well. If Your name is not in the book of life it was never ment for you to have a chance at second life, but to furfil Gods will. Is this evil? In reality it dosent matter what we think We dont controll Our faith. We are just playing the role that was given to us.

Some how it seams like God is testing what he have created to see if his final plan will work out. He is using us to see if we can be trusted to function according to his will. It didnt work out to well With Adam and Eve. But from that day on everythng have been going according to history.

You are contradicting yourself here. First you say there is no free will. Then you say that God is seeing if it works out. But if there is no free will then the only factor of it working out, is God's programming into the robots that he makes. Then those that didn't have any free will in the first place get tortured for all eternity after.

And yes this view is evil. This is a disgusting god that must die. As if the creator of the universe was so petty as to make little playthings for him to watch burn. Why would it matter if there was a book of life or not, or even why should there even be a bible to tell people if they have no choice?

Please brother(sister?) I used to believe in this same god who destined some to life and some to torture. That is a devil, a demon, an imagination, a god made in your (my) image. I believe God has a plan yes, but to say that He would create some who have no choice, and then they are punished is horrendous.

Its not a contradiction if God tests us in the maner he does by influencing Our personal judgment and Choices. You do still know the difference between what is right and wrong. But still you do what Your hart and mind tells you to do. Right?

Do you have the personal knowledge and strength to make a differnt Choice than the one Your hart and mind is set on to make,,, there and then?
Hardly anybody does. They are not even trained to do it or some couldnt even care less. We make selfish Choices constantly because this is what God has put upon us. But you can make a difference. You do have that ability. But do you have the will to do this every day? Its going to cost you a lot.

Only the elect Who's names are written in the book of life have the strength and will to do what is truly right, even if they are influence by God the same way you and me are.
They are tempted to make a selfish Choices just like everyone else is. But they have the personal strength and pride to make a different Choice. A moral Choice that is a truly good choice. They can make unpopular Choice that dont benefit them financially or make them popular amongs the crowd. But in the eys of God these people show their true caracter.

These People will be hunted Down and killed because of who they are, by the selfish moral cannons. Who dont think about what they are doing.
Do these People deserve the same treatment as the People who have the caracter and will to do what is truly and morally right. If these selfish People deserve the same judgment as the elect. Why do we kill terrorists and judge them as evil beings?

What is the difference?

If these selfish People demand the same chance at second life as the elect. Dont terrorists also deserve a second chance? In their eyes you would be evil for not judging them fairly according to their views and reasons. Selfish People dont show mercy they judge and deliver punishment according to their selfish laws.

Or lok at this way, would you like to have these terrorists as Your Next door neighbours? Probably not. So why would God want to have selfish moral cannons NeXT to his elect in heaven?
Nothing would be different than Things are now if that was the case. Selfish People and the elect share Space on Earth right now.

a reply to: lpnjeff
Jesus says differently:
John 10:30 ►
"I and the Father are one."
[Jesus was a jew, Matthew 5:17 shows he is referring to YHWH]
Matthew 5:17 ►
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 10:34 ►
34“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35“For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; 36and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
37“He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
-
See? Jesus is as evil as YHWH. This is also proven in The Revelation of John, where Jesus returns to earth to kill billions of people.

originally posted by: malmanomar
a reply to: lpnjeff

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Matthew 10:34 ►

True, but what is The Law and The Prophets?

This is explained later on in this verse:

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." - Matthew 7:12

a reply to: arpgme
The law is the mosaic laws of The Old Testament, the law YHWH gave onto Moses, and the prophets are the prophets of The Old Testament. Jesus was a jew, he even said he only came for the lost sheep of Israels flock. You're using a cop out. How could he feel the necessity to refer to an abolishment of laws and propfhets that had not been known to anyone yet? That would be pointless. You'll also be unhappy to learn that christians are not in agreement with you on this point.

Anyway, that's the least of the concerns of the problem I posed, namely that Jesus is an evil son of a bitch, who by The New Testaments own admission will kill billions in a most gruesome way and then send them to a hell of his own making to be tortured forever.

[Edit]
The Phrase,'" the law and the prophets," is sometimes used as practically equivalent to the whole of the Old Testament (Matthew 7:12; John 1:45; Romans 3:21; cf. Matthew 11:13; Matthew 22:40; Acts 24:14)
biblehub.com...

Also, why would Jesus refer to "the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen" in the following verse if he was just talking about the abstract "do onto others...", as you suggest?

Matthew 5:18 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

a reply to: malmanomar

Anyway, that's the least of the concerns of the problem I posed, namely that Jesus is an evil son of a bitch, who by The New Testaments own admission will kill billions in a most gruesome way and then send them to a hell of his own making to be tortured forever.

Not sure how you came to this conclusion... IF it was by revelation, that wasn't Jesus it was Johns words...

And the few passages that could be considered "evil" within the gospels need a deeper understanding of what Jesus was trying to say...

He was not evil... Though I do believe the so called "god" of the OT fits the bill

originally posted by: UNIT76
this was one of the better 'is the bible fake' topics i've found here

recently i've been doing some digging on this 'covering cherub'

the most known reference seems to be in the book of ezekial (28:14)

"You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

(there was some more in the book of revelation & the book of isaiah)

there's one particular reference to this covering cherub i found in the bible that also makes me question the identity of the old-testament deity.. unfortunately i didn't make a note of it (and searching for it now on the internet doesn't seem to be helping)

the reference might have been in isaiah? (pretty sure it was in the OT)
it was describing this covering cherub being involved in the day to day affairs of the hebrew people..
(if anyone can help with this, that'd be nice.. there must be some kind of FUNCTIONING bible search engine out there? the one i'm using now has found 0 instances of the word 'cherub' in the bible!?)

This is probably the most pertinent comment on this thread which actually leads to understanding of the subject.The reference to "The Covering Cherub" depicts the Devil before he rebelled against God. His high esteem in the heavens lead God to appoint him over the Earth. His decision to challenge God changed the direction of Man until God steps back into Human affairs in the near future. His appointment and position over the Earth has not changed since. Thus the suffering and badness that exists comes directly from him and NOT God. Because he is in control of everything, information is skewed, whether Religious or Atheist, no one can understand the true facts unless you seek them truthfully.

>"We know we are children of God, and the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (1 John 5:19 NIV)

>He blinds the minds of the Government, Commercial, and Religious leaders: "The Earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof." (Job 9:24 KJV)

>He blinds the minds of unbelievers: "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Cor. 4:4 NIV)

>His authority over the Earth is demonstrated by him being able to offer the kingdoms to Jesus: "The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, "I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. So if you worship me, it will all be yours." (Luke 4:3-8 NIV)

>Every nation has a powerful spirit aligned with the Devil controlling it and it's leaders: "But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia." (Daniel 10 NIV) Persia was the world power at that time. The angel Gabriel was detained by the prince of Persia. THIS WAS NO MAN. An earthly prince cannot detain an angel. Only a more powerful spirit, in this case the one controlling Persia. Michael had to set Gabriel free.

For more good and true info, see dusty1's earlier post

a reply to: TheChrome

The devil is not doing anytihng neither is God. Do you know who the beasts in revelation 13 is? The beast is us.

The whore that sits on the beast in not the church or religion. Its a cartel of very rich and powerful men.

a reply to: spy66
The Beast is a representation of all the world's governments, and the Whore is religion that has controlled or influenced the governments over the centuries. The Whore is not rich and powerful men, because when the Whore (religion) is stripped of her power by the Beast (the governments), the rich and powerful stand at a distance: "The merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxeries; The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes any more; The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment" (Revelation 18:3,11,15)