This has bothered me for quite a while now. Please, no atheist and slammer posts here; I really want to get to the bottom of this in a spiritual discussion.

Before I start with the info, a bit of background on myself. I was a devout Lutheran until my teenage years... then I started asking questions, e.g., about how God Yahweh could be a loving god if he appeared so vengeful and jealous (AND said that about himself) in the OT. Besides, he ordered so many atrocities and massacres that I couldn't believe he was loving and just. Sometimes his followers (like in the tale of Sodom and Gomorrah) seemed to have more mercy and compassion than Yahweh himself.

I still believed in Jesus for quite a while, though... then I stopped that too, but now I'm kind of on the fence again. What I noticed about the NT was that Jesus seemed so loving and nurturing, quite different from his "father." I also know that if you ever have an encounter with evil spirits, calling on "God" and the name of Jesus helps... this is my own experience.

I know that the Gnostics say Yahweh was an evil god, the Demiurge, who was born from the female divine, Sophia, without participation of the Supreme Creator. He created the Earth for his own depraved pleasure. They say Lucifer was the good guy. Well, THAT doesn't quite sit right with me either. My gut instinct tells me it's just not true.

However, lately I've been thinking, what if Yahweh of the OT and Jesus' god of the NT are NOT one and the same?

Now, I just read a thread on GLP on fraud in the Bible and researched a bit, and it turns out that in the original NT, the name Yahweh/Jehovah does NOT appear!

Last week I read the book "The Secret Teachings of Jesus," which is a translation of the Nag Hammadi scrolls that were found in 1945 in the Egyptian desert and are accounts of Jesus' life and work that never made it into the Bible. Many of the quotes in there have a striking resemblance to what you read in the Gospel, but there's some more.

In The Secret Book of John, Jesus is quite clear about the Supreme Creator and Yahweh/Jehovah. And I quote:

"The One is a sovereign that has nothing over it. It is God and Father of all, the Invisible One that is over all, that is imperishable, that is pure light no eye can see.

"It is the Invisible Spirit. One should not think of it as a god, or like a god. For it is greater than a god, because it has nothing over it and no lord above it. It does not exist within anything that is inferior to it, since everything exists only within it. It is eternal, since it does not need anything. For it is absolutely complete; it has never lacked anything in order to be complete. Rather, it has always been absolutely complete in light.

It is illimitable, since there is nothing before it to limit it.

It is unfathomable, since there is nothing before it to fathom it.

It is immeasurable, since there was nothing before it to measure it.

It is unobservable, since nothing has observed it.

It is eternal, and exists eternally.

It is unutterable, since nothing could comprehend it to utter it.

It is unnameable, since there is nothing before it to give it a name.

He goes on and on, but I think you're getting the idea. Then Jesus talks about the aspects of the Divine:

"For the Perfect One beholds itself in the light surrounding it. This is the spring of water of life that gives forth all the worlds of every kind. The Perfect One gazes upon its image, sees it in the spring of the spirit, and falls in love with the luminous water. This is the spring of pure, luminous water surrounding the Perfect One.

"Its Thought became active, and she who appeared in the presence of the Father in shining light came forth. She is the first power: she preceded everything, and came forth from the Father's mind as the Forethought of all. Her light resembles the Father's light; as the perfect power, she is the image of the perfect and invisible virgin Spirit. She is
the first power,
the glory,
Barbelo,
the perfect glory among the worlds,
the emerging glory.

[...]

"The Father entered Barbelo with a gaze, with the pure, shining light surrounding the invisible Spirit. Barbelo conceived, and the Father produced a ray of light that was similar to the blessed light but not as bright. This ray of light was the only Son of the common Parent that had come forth, and the only offspring and the only Son of the Father, the pure light.

[...]

"The Father anointed him with goodness until he was perfectly and completely good, for the Father anointed him with the goodness of the invisible Spirit. . . . The Son asked to be given Mind as a companion to work with, and the invisible Spirit agreed. When the Spirit agreed, Mind appeared, and stood by CHRIST, and glorified Christ and Barbelo.

"All these things, however, came into existence in silence. Mind wished to create something by means of the word of the invisible Spirit. Its Will became a reality and appeared with Mind, while the light glorified it. Word followed Will. For CHRIST, the self-produced God, created everything by the word.

[...]

"Now Sophia, who is the Wisdom of Afterthought and who represents an eternal realm, conceived of a thought. She had this idea herself, and the invisible Spirit and Foreknowledge also reflected upon it. She wanted to give birth to a being like herself
without the permission of the Spirit (the Spirit had not given approval),
without her lover,
and without his consideration.

"Her partner did not give his approval; she did not find anyone who agreed with her; and she considered this matter without the Spirit's permission or any knowledge of what she had decided. Nonetheless she brought forth a child. And because of the unconquerable power within her, her thought was not an idle thought. Rather, something came out of her that was imperfect and different in appearance from her, for she had produced it without her lover.

[...]

"When Sophia saw what her desire had produced, it changed into the figure of a SNAKE with the face of a lion. Its eyes were like flashing bolts of lightning. She threw it away from her, outside that realm, so that none of the Immortals would see it. For she had produced it ignorantly. . . . She named her child Yaldabaoth.

"YALDABAOTH is the first ruler, who took great power from his Mother. Then he left her and moved away from the realms where he was born. He was st

I have been recently questioning me beliefs. When you think about it your logic tells you to ask "Hey, if He is all loving and merciful, then how can he send people to a lake of fire for eternity"? Well, I believe that the answer lies within the Bible. God, or in my case Jesus Christ gives us plenty of warning in there. Just read it and be open minded. And just a tip. If you have a bible, and you have a very important question about your faith in God, just get out a bible pray to god and ask him the question and open up the bible to a random page, and your question will be answered. (NOTE : Me, my brother and mom do this all the time and he has always come thru for us. You just have to believe that he'll do it for you. Just very recently actually Me and my brother converted a friend to Christianity using this. He was asking stuff like why people go to hell even if they are born knowing other religions and why we are here, and every single question was answered on the page he opened).

Sorry, ran out of space and something went wrong. OK, continuing:

"He was strong, and created for himself other realms by means of a BRIGHT FLAME OF FIRE that still exists.

[...]

"Yaldaboath stationed seven kings to reign over the seven heavens, and five to reign over the depths of hell. He shared his fire with them, but did not give away any of the power of the light that he had taken from his Mother. For he is a being of ignorant darkness.

"When the light mixed with the darkness, it made the darkness brighter. When the darkness mixed with the light, it dimmed the light. The result was neither light nor darkness, but rather gloom.

[...]

He is wicked because of the Mindlessness that is in him. For he said,
'I AM GOD,
AND THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME,'
since he did not know from where his own strength had come.

"The rulers created for themselves seven powers. The powers in turn created for themselves six angels apiece, until there were three hundred sixty-five angels.

[...]

Yaldabaoth organized everything after the pattern of the first eternal realms that had come into being, for he wished to create beings that are like the Imperishable Ones. Not that he had seen the Imperishable Ones. Rather, the power that is in him, that he had taken from his Mother, produced the pattern for the world order.

"When he saw creation all around, and the throng of angels around him that had come forth from him, he said to them,
'I AM A JEALOUS GOD,
AND THERE IS NO OTHER GOD BESIDES ME.'
But by making this announcement, he suggested to the angels with him that there is another God. For if there were no other God, of whom would he be jealous?

[...]

"When the Mother realized that this dark shadow had come into being imperfectly, she understood that her lover had not collaborated with her. She repented with many tears. . . . A voice called from the exalted heavenly realm,
'MAN EXISTS,
AND THE SON OF MAN!'

"The first ruler, Yaldaboath, heard the voice and thought that it had come from his Mother. He did not realize its source.
It was from the holy Parent,
the completely perfect Forethought,
the image of the Invisible One,
that is, the Father of everything,
through whom everything came into being,
the first Man.

"He/she taught these things, and revealed him/herself in human shape.

"The entire realm of the first ruler quaked, and the foundations of hell shook. The bottomside of the waters above the material world was lit up by the image that had appeared. When all the authorities and the first ruler stared at this appearance, they saw the whole bottomside as it was lit up. And through the light they saw the shape of the image in the water.

[...]

"Yaldabaothh said to the authorities with him, 'Come, let us create a human being after the image of God and with a likeness to ourselves, so that this human image may give us light.'

"They created with their powers, and copied the features that had appeared. Each of the authorities contributed a physical feature corresponding to the figure of the image they had seen. They created a being like the first perfect Man, and said, 'Let us call it ADAM, that its name may give us power of light.'

[...]

"All the angels and demons worked together until they fashioned the physical body. But for a long time their creation did not stir or move at all. . . . They said to Yaldabaoth, 'Breathe some of your spirit into the face of Adam, and then the body will arise.'

"He breathed his spirit into Adam. The spirit is the power of his Mother, but he did not realize this, because he lives in ignorance. Thus the Mother's power went out of Yaldabaoth, and into the physical body that had been made to be like the One who is from the beginning.

"The body moved, and became powerful. And it was enlightened.

"At once the rest of the powers became jealous. Although Adam had come into being through all of them, and they had given their power to this human, yet Adam was more intelligent than the creators and the first ruler. When they realized that Adam was enlightened, and could think more clearly than they, and was free of evil, they took and threw Adam into the lowest part of the whole material realm.

[OK, this is getting way long, so I have to cut out some more. Fast-forward to Yahweh's appearance.]

"The first ruler saw the young woman standing next to Adam, and noticed that the enlightened Afterthought of life had appeared in her. Yet Yaldabaoth was full of ignorance. So when the Forethought of all realized what was happening, she dispatched emissaries, and they stole Life out of Eve.

"The first ruler raped Eve, and produced in her two sons, a first and a second: ELOHIM and YAHWEH.
Elohim has the face of a bear,
Yahweh has the face of a cat.
ONE IS JUST,
THE OTHER IS UNJUST.
He placed Yahweh over the fire and the wind,
and he placed Elohim over the water and the earth.
He called them by the names CAIN AND ABEL, for he meant to deceive."

Me again.

So if I read this right, this means that there is a Supreme Creator or "Source" of All That Is, that is NOT Yahweh.

The Source created a female counterpart (or part), which then gave birth to the CHRIST -- which would mean the divine spirit that Jesus embodied existed BEFORE Yahweh.

Next came Sophia's ill-begotten son, Yaldabaoth, who to all appearances seems identical with the devil/Satan, and who created Adam after a reflection of the true first Man he saw in the water. Adam was created by Yaldabaoth's/Satan's (fallen) angels and demons, but was rescued/enlightened by the divine... which made Adam's "creators" jealous and got them really ticked off.

Eventually Yaldabaoth/Satan created two beings, called Elohim and Yahweh. Elohim was the good guy, Yahweh the bad guy. He was made the ruler of the fire and wind, while E. became ruler of water and earth. Their "earthly" names were Cain (Yahweh) and Abel (Elohim).

I know, confusing, huh? BUT it makes total sense to me - why else would Jesus never mention the name YAHWEH in the NT, whereas it is mentioned about 7,000 times in the OT? Were these two books maybe just tossed together into one book by the early church fathers, even though they're talking about two different gods -- Yahweh in the OT and the Supreme Creator in the NT? Have you ever noticed that God seems so much nicer and more loving and compassionate in the NT?

Fine. Now open that magic book of yours and tell me why God created pure evil, and let it run loose- instead of just destroying Lucifer outright.

Well, it's not like I have all the answers. I'm a seeker myself. But if you want to consult "the book," i.e., The Secret Book of John, here it goes:

The Supreme Creator didn't create evil, Sophia inadvertently did because she wanted to give birth to something on her own, without the Creator.

And then Yaldabaoth created the "earthly" negatives:

The four principal demons are:
Ephememphi, the one of pleasure,
Yoko, the one of desire,
Nenentophni, the one of grief,
Blaomen, the one of fear. . . .
From these four demons have come passions:
From grief come jealousy, envy, pain, trouble, distress, hardheartedness, anxiety, sorrow, and so forth.
From pleasure come much evil, vain conceit, and the like.
From desire come anger, wrath, bitterness, intense lust, greed, and the like.
From fear come terror, servility, anguish, and shame.

Best I can do.

And why didn't the Creator smash Lucifer/Yaldabaoth to bits? Well, that's just my guess, but it seems that the Supreme God Jesus is talking about here is a lot more merciful and loving than the god of the OT -- so maybe it's not in his nature to destroy.

I just cant get my head over the christian religion. Whats the point in makeing galaxys, planets and stars, if only earth is the planet that has life on it. Sounds pointless to me lol.

Originally posted by wylekat
Fine. Now open that magic book of yours and tell me why God created pure evil, and let it run loose- instead of just destroying Lucifer outright.

One has to understand that God is insane. Not without reason, rather insane with reason. A perfection reached through a complete contrast of purpose and signifigance. How else can the truth be prooven? They compliment and verify the opposing truths. A coin has two sides but they are both part of the same coin. Yet it is just this insanity that 1+1=1.

It's too late tonight but i'll try to edit this with more info later

I've also been wondering something simliar lately.

I can't seem to comprehend God existing in a single form with a single voice.

What i can see is God existing as a trinity of thought (soul), emotion(spirit), and matter(body) throught the universe all is an extension of Gods expression.

The Old Testament "God" was a bad guy. Jesus was a good guy. Its so obvious and easy to see except for those with a bias. Jesus taught Kindness, the Old Testament God displayed rage and murder.

Another thread calling God evil ?

FUNKY.... with a J .


Judgement only comes to those who continually
crap in their own nest .

That is not evil , it's the way it is .
God loves everybody , up to a point .

after you die it's too late to seek redemption .

Hell is full of souls
"who don't deserve to be there"

Mankind is not the equal of God , and His judgements
are always fair and unsearchable .

When Jesus returns He won't be so patient or forgiving .

Originally posted by sylvie
Well, it's not like I have all the answers. I'm a seeker myself. But if you want to consult "the book," i.e., The Secret Book of John, here it goes:

The Supreme Creator didn't create evil, Sophia inadvertently did because she wanted to give birth to something on her own, without the Creator.

And then Yaldabaoth created the "earthly" negatives:

The four principal demons are:
Ephememphi, the one of pleasure,
Yoko, the one of desire,
Nenentophni, the one of grief,
Blaomen, the one of fear. . . .
From these four demons have come passions:
From grief come jealousy, envy, pain, trouble, distress, hardheartedness, anxiety, sorrow, and so forth.
From pleasure come much evil, vain conceit, and the like.
From desire come anger, wrath, bitterness, intense lust, greed, and the like.
From fear come terror, servility, anguish, and shame.

Best I can do.

And why didn't the Creator smash Lucifer/Yaldabaoth to bits? Well, that's just my guess, but it seems that the Supreme God Jesus is talking about here is a lot more merciful and loving than the god of the OT -- so maybe it's not in his nature to destroy.

You got this from Gnosticism I presume.

I'm not an expert on that religion but they equate Yaldabaoth with Yahweh - 'the only God and no other Gods'. The creator of this fake universe/bodies we now live in, that's why there's so much corruption...

Ofc, I'm not sure, I'm no expert in Gnostics. Then we can look back at Greek mythology, there we have Zeus who's actually an evil God who sent rebellious souls to Tartarus - hell.

Maybe if the true Creator cannot destroy, maybe it was man's destiny all along to destroy evil - just a thought

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The Old Testament "God" was a bad guy. Jesus was a good guy. Its so obvious and easy to see except for those with a bias. Jesus taught Kindness, the Old Testament God displayed rage and murder.

Here is the answer to your question OP. It is indeed clear as daylight. The OT and the NT should never have been fused into the debacle that is the Bible, the OT only confuses the teachings of Jesus in the NT. Read them separately, these should be different books altogether.

Further, you're use of Elohim is incorrect in my opinion. Elohim is the plural of Eloah, the OT is a polytheistic mythological recount, not a monotheistic one as some like to believe.

Cheers.

[edit on 3/11/2009 by serbsta]

Now this is an Interesting thread, would be nice to expand on this as it died in infancy which is rather unfortunate. Sylvie if you`re still on ats you should continue with it, i think maybe there are a few more
here now who arent as closed off to the possibility of this Creation here, being a complete farce, over in the sheep pens like some seem to be. Everything here is upside down and backwards, and the God of this world whatever people choose to call him, has two faces, which other`s refer to as Satan. One Tryrannical Ruler who demands all come to him or be forever tormented in eternal fire, and the other, who cons knowing it doesnt matter as long as no one ever wakes up from the Dream mare, ensuring he òr whatever you choose to refer to this god as, retains full Ownership of You. That`s not love, which is another topic for another day.