The 912 Project is crap

reply to post by DINSTAAR

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WOW,,,

ya those "guidelines" do not read like a group of people who are comfortable with letting other people be FREE to be who they are. In fact it is so ridged, its amazing any free thinkers would see FREEDOM in such a some-encompassing founding document.

Still like the constitution a whole triple damn sight better!

Meaner as in the sense where everyone tries to rob each other no matter how small the benefits, and how large the consequences.

Having a macho line that sounds like it could come from a movie always gets applause though

Ya, IT was so hardcore my girly fainted after I READ IT!

Text BlueI am going to disagree with you, it is not crap. If anything, when you look at this, Glenn Beck, is putting down into print what he believes. If more people and politicians would do that, then our country would not be in the kind of trouble that it is in.
You mention that the first point sounds like nationalism, the question is why does it sound like that and what is wrong with that? What is wrong about taking the time and effort to make the United States of America great again and stand for something that all nations of the world can look to. At one time, for a good 60 years, this country, with all of its innovations, and ideas, lead the world in areas of science and education, but in the modern day and age has been left behind.
2) Why it is important to have a belief in a higher power, allows for a person, a people and a society to make ethically decisions and realize that there are consequences for our actions. Take a look at neighborhoods, at the crimes that people, that young people do, to make a point, the senseless beating of an honor student in Chicago, and I believe that is from a lack of belief in a higher power.
Personally I do not care if Beck is a Mormon, or a prostentant, Anglecan, Catholic, Jewish or any other number of beliefs, what is important is that he believes and that guides him.
3) I believe that is to the principle where he states that if he makes a mistake and is called on it, he will make the time on the air to correct those mistakes.
4) Once the beliefe, a mans house is his castle, and it is not the state or the government to come in and dictate what goes on inside of a persons house. Have you ever asked yourself why the big push for the government to have more control over what goes on in your house than not, or to dictate what you can and can not eat or do in the privacy of your own home? Considering that federal government wants to put a new tax, though a few pennies on things like sodas and what would be considered sins, or unhealthy choices.
Ah yes the gay marriage part. While I am not against people of the same sex from getting married, what I am against is the government from getting involved in something that started out as a religious ceremony.
5) No one, not ever past adminstrations, presidents or those of the federal government is above the law.
6) There are those who still cry foul, cause they do not get their way. Can you say Al Sharpton?
7) I can't find fault.
8) It is the right of the people of the United States of America to disgree with the people of the government, and to share that personal opinion. The problem has come up, more than once, where if a person or group states such, the Executive branch of the government starts to put pressure to get them to shut up. The current adminstration is not the first to do such, but more and more people are starting to get verbal, and that is a good thing, but when that government turns around and calls those people un-American, then it borderlines on violating the Constitution of the United States, and the right of Free speech. We still have the right to question that authority and the legitimacy of that authority. We may not like the answers, but still we have that right.
Beck is stating what is correct here, the White house is unfairly trying to pull a fast one, and they are the victims in this case. They just need to stand up when the next guy is in office and tries the same thing.
9) Of that he is very correct. Consider, if you go to a store to purchase an item, you are a customer and that person who is selling you items you are their boss, by providing them with a means of income. The federal government is one of the people and should be the voice of all of the people, anything else and you get into discrimination and we take a step back.

reply to post by DINSTAAR

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Eight is my favorite

8. It is not un-American for me to disagree with authority or to share my personal opinion.




that is the richest thing I have EVER, EVER, EVER heard having been to a few anti war protests in my time...

"TERRORIST LOVERS"

bite me!

reply to post by Janky Red

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Just as it is any American's right to protest wars, it is also the right of others to call you or them 'terrorist lover'. Not saying it is proper, but freedom of speech and freedom to assemble is a right that transcends political parties. If you truly believe in that right, you should also support those that don't agree with you to say and believe whatever they like.

and werewolves waged war on conservatism the day after the vampires sucked the blood out of all of the conservative first born.

I mean seriously - do radical conservatives hear what they sound like when they say these types of things?

[edit on 2-11-2009 by Snarf]

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II

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Try not to assume my belief system. I am not liberal. I have stated this before.

reply to post by johnny2127

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I oppose the 912 movement and seek change from the current system. Apparently, libertarians do not fit in the narrative being written by the 912ers, and most of their good ideas are libertarian to begin with. I want to see the central government and the state governments whither drastically and I want people to be free from a nanny government who tells people what they can and can't do with their lives and their own bodies.

quoting superluminal11


It's both. All coercion done by any body private or public requires a government to act as the enforcer.



I did not attack his religious beliefs. I just pointed out his beliefs as a way to show how ridiculous and alienating the second principle is. 'Trying to wake people up' is a stretch. The movement has been hijacked by special interest groups. I was in DC on 9-11, I saw this first hand.




Morality exists outside of religious people. The belief in a higher power is not a precursor to doing good. I see a problem with superimposing ones religious beliefs with policy. The Bible is not political and Jesus was not liberal or conservative. The Bible just teaches virtues with which we can live a better life. This is a dangerous mixture of faith and power. This is the area where people start doing terrible things in the name of God. If ones religious beliefs dictate them to never gamble, why is it okay for that person to impose their own will on those that want to gamble?

I want the government to stay out of everyones house, not just mine.



Saying it does not make it true.

I don't have a problem with some of the ideals behind the "912" movement

But i do have a problem with Glen Beck making more of a name of himself off the backs of those who have lost in 9/11...again...

I do have a problem with the fact that most of those who now support the 912 movement, are only doing so out of opposition of Obama, not support for this country.

Want proof?

Why did it take 8 years for the 912 movement to start?

Oh, thats right, because it took a new president from a different party.

Lets break these down as provided in the OP:

1. America Is Good.
Yes, i would agree. Thats mostly because im an optimist and i feel as though, for the most part, our country has done good in the world. Of course there are many instances that, if judged individually, would say other wise. And i support challenging your government when the ideals that it pursues are not concurrent with your own.

What i wish, however, is that immature childish conservatives would keep this in mind next time there's a war mongering republican in office and opposition comes from the other side. Don't be Hypocrites.


2. I believe in God and He is the Center of my Life.
As a believe in God, i support this too. However, if i were to following the teachings of God (Or in the majority of conservatives cases, Jesus Christ) it would tell me that i don't need to go around throwing my religion in everyone's face. I don't go around judging people for not having religion or for having different ways of life (cough) gay marriage (cough). Once again. Stop being Hypocrites.



3. I must always try to be a more honest person than I was yesterday.
Hehe...yeah right. Politician...human being....whatever....this is just marglark. People will always lie when they think they can get away with it and profit.



4. The family is sacred. My spouse and I are the ultimate authority, not the government.
Until it comes time to tell Gay couples that they don't have the right, correct? Then Government DOES have authority.



5. If you break the law you pay the penalty. Justice is blind and no one is above it.

Unless you torture people or break the law and happen to be sided with the GOP.




6. I have a right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, but there is no guarantee of equal results.

I couldn't agree more with this.





7. I work hard for what I have and I will share it with who I want to. Government cannot force me to be charitable.
Unless it's charitable for causes of War or wall street bailouts. Both of which happened under Bush...neither of which get griped about by ol' Lonesome Roads.


8. It is not un-American for me to disagree with authority or to share my personal opinion.
Unless it's a democrat disagreeing with Bush, then we'll call them Nazi's and unamerican (do i really need to post the ENDLESS stream of youtube videos to prove this????)



9. The government works for me. I do not answer to them, they answer to me.
Unless it's bush inacting the patriot act and illegally spying on us. Then it's okay.






The fable of the story is:

It's only cool to be patriotic when you're not the one in charge. When a republican is in office, democrats while and gripe

When a democrat is in office, republicans squabble and throw temper tantrums.

Both sides show their true colors when they are not in "control" and as we've seen from these last 8 years, neither side can be fully trusted.

So go ahead and have your 912 crap. I agree with the OP. It is crap. Not the ideals found within, just the agenda behind the ideals.

reply to post by DINSTAAR

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So as a libertarian, what do you specifically oppose about the 912ers? Don't read into and infer opinions or issues into their values or principles. But what don't you agree with and why?

Who said people cannot say or believe what they want?

My point was to point out the hypocrisy, of preaching the complete opposite of past behavior. News Corp funded this website and News Corp was the undisputed champion
of attacking other AMERICANS patriotism with a ploy intended to marginalize peoples ANTI GOVERNMENT sentiment. BUT now...

On a whole other level, to a good degree this movement is being organized and funded with corporate lobby and corporate money. Once FOX stepped in, this becomes a direct lobby on people, by utilizing TP frustration to angle in outside agenda. ( ADVERTISERS )


I also find it convenient that this BASE did not voice their concerns during the last eight years of spending and incompetence. Man, if that happened I would have hope for this "movement", their underlying motive and civic awareness.

PS the signs bolster my suspicions to a large degree -

First off Snarf..great name....*snarf*...now back to topic. I thought about joining the 912 movement until they played the "god" card and this person at the tea party here in Orlando started evangelizing. This country, although founded on christian principles, is an almagamation of many different religions and NON-religions. The ethiics and morals behind the Constitution and even the 912 afadavit are good. Alot of us whom are agnosts don't like being told that "god" favors either dems or reps or another political entity. This is garbage. "god" doesn't look upon our country ANY DIFFERENT than any other. SO KNOCK OF THE BS. Those of us whom owe NO allegiance to an invisible man in the sky, do believe in the founding principles and generally bite our tongue when the invocation of "god" is made during political arguements. NO MORE. "god" doesn't care whether you vote for reps, dems, or indies. Stop invoking him in a lame attempt to get the lower 65% to follow you off the cliff.

reply to post by djvexd

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You hit the nail on the head. When I was at the D.C. protest in September I saw all of that. People were evangelizing at the protest. I understand their passion, but they are foolish philosophically connect their beliefs in God with their politics.

I hear stuff like "how could any Christian vote democrat" and "I know we are right because the Bible says so and I believe in the Bible". I am not making this up. I believe in God, but I don't blindly follow what the Christian culture in the USA is pushing for. Political policy needs to be logically thought through, not based on the opinion of the masses of other people who believe in God.

Its like the whole catastrophic global warming thing. People blindly follow what morons like Al Gore are saying while never reading the document that the assertions are based on.

Conservatives believe in Free Markets because they believe in freedom. At the same time they are oppressive on social issues. This is one of my issues with 912. I also hate the way they have started to idolize Glenn Beck. In DC there were signs and chants much like the Obama chants. It is getting dangerously close to cult of personality status.

Another issue I have with 912 is that it is just advocating people like Bush and the like go back in office. This is exactly what will happen. History be the guide.

They want the government out of their homes, but want to make it illegal for me to gamble and have consensual sex with hookers in my own home. They are cool with freedom, as long as it coincides with their faith.

The only thing "9/12" signifies is a blatant attempt to exploit a national tragedy for political purposes. The D.C. protest on 9/12/09 wasn't even about national security concerns which simply drove the exploitive nature of it home that much more.

[edit on 4-11-2009 by Frith]