WAR: 40 Dead in Disputed US Attack in Iraq

You Cant total blame these guys, they are on edge, they DONT want to Die, this is why when a car of people comes up to a check point and doesnt slow down they get lit up. The bottom line here is if people were not shooting at them or at least if they wore uniforms etc. this stuff would not happen. It is an awful tragedy no question. But who is really to blame, These guys are just prtecting themselves. Also was it a Helicopter or a planes? I see conflicting reports. was it a Huey or a black hawk. They also dont fire handguns more like AKs in the air.

It was a stupid move on the part of the adults in the area to be firing guns in the air. and dont blame the whole military for the actions of a few guys who dont want to be shot and killed

Originally posted by mOjOm

In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan's Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire.

Unless they were celebrating by firing 'Surface to Air Rockets', it would seem that these guys over-reacted just a bit, don't ya think?

Come under fire is stretching it big time, if you're talking about some handguns or even a few rifles popping off a few rounds. I mean it's a Military Plane, in flight and is in more danger of being struck by lightning than being shot down by a few stray bullets.

If you were a US solider flying a helicopter over iraq, at 3 am and bullets came flying at the helicopter would you
a) say, "You know what, its just small arms fire, who cares!! Not like its rockets ".
b) say, "These #ers are shooting at us, trying to kill us. lets toast em!!"

?

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by djs0ma]

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by djs0ma]

yeah but in the army when someone shoots at you retalliation is the main key. its called Brute Force. youll all hear about it sometime. anything responds to you. you gotta make sure its dead.

Till death do they part, eh?

I thought war in Iraq is over

'Ready, Fire, Aim!' or better..."think"?

Oh my oh my, you americans get a bunch of terrorists in return. I don't want to be in your country now or in future years, you guys are in serious trouble now through the Bush administration.
And I doubt Americans wanted anything bad to Arabs before Bush. A pitty.

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by shoo]

Hooray for the Monday Morning Quaterbacks here at ATS.

Thank you so much for telling us how you would have handled the situation. Too bad you weren't there instead to prevent stuff like that from happening.

Perhaps if you joined and put your lives on the line in a warzone, fewer incidents like this would happen?

First of all, I'm not placing blaim or saying the Military soldiers are a bunch of sadists or anything. It's a war zone after all. Everything and everyone is atempting to kill something or someone else, so sh*t is going to happen, no doubt. In fact, just look at the reports of downed U.S. aircraft, you'll notice a very healthy percentage of those attributed to Mistakes and Friendly Fire, which goes to show it's about as stable of an environment as being in a Monkey Cage, Drunk, Tired and with a box of Gernades.

However, I'm curious why it is that this helicopter, with it's advanced targeting, night vision, and so forth, stumbled blindly into a Wedding Party shooting off guns in the middle of nowhere in the wee hours of the morning. But ok, it's not expected so I can see how it may happen. However, while reacting to the 'sudden attack', once you begin to assess the situation and locate the potential enemy and target them, Groups of Women, Kids and maybe even elderly family memebers, in that kind of setting could have been a hint that things may not be as they seemed. Plus what about the Soldiers who checked it out and then left? Bad communication there huh?? But hey, War is Hell after all.

Now, when it comes to the 48 dead and 117 injured from an Airstrike by Plane, I think that is pretty strange. Perhaps it's just me though too. I also consider it a bit Radical to Hunt Quale with an Uzi and Duck with an AK as well. Just how low was this plane flying anyway? And at what speed? Also, how many passes did it take to rack up them 48 dead, including children, as well as 117 injured, before realizing, Oops! My bad??

...and just remember that their helicopters have night vision. And I would bet I could see the difference between a damn wedding celebration and a bunch of freaks firing at my helicopter.

But that's just me. I guess I am special somehow, maybe I can ask to become 4-star general for the USA. Seems like personal down under isn't that tough.

Originally posted by mOjOm


Now, when it comes to the 48 dead and 117 injured from an Airstrike by Plane, I think that is pretty strange. Perhaps it's just me though too. I also consider it a bit Radical to Hunt Quale with an Uzi and Duck with an AK as well. Just how low was this plane flying anyway? And at what speed? Also, how many passes did it take to rack up them 48 dead, including children, as well as 117 injured, before realizing, Oops! My bad??

once troops are engaged (firing upon troops would be enough to engage) these gunships keep firing until everything is "neutralized". Moral of this story, dont shoot at us!

And once again we see people who have never been in an evironment where people want to kill you passing judgement. It's almost amusing yet sad at the same time.

We've come off a span of a few months in which hundreds of American soldiers have been killed. Some of them by such little tiny harmless things like MACHINE GUNS.

If it's a fun pastime in Iraq to shoot machine guns into the air, well maybe it's not the appropriate time to do that. Machine guns can carry fairly high wouldn't you say? So if a plane patrolling at low altitudes detects that it's being fired upon, what the hell do you want them to do? Land and say "Hey buddies, we caught some bullets whizzing by a few moments ago, are you trying to kill us or celebrating something?"

But no... no one understands how such a mistake could be made. It's more fun to be a hindsight general!! It's more fun to portray America as mass murderers!!

Those of you who insist on Monday morning quarterbacking other people's lives should join the 9/11 commission. Birds of a feather...

Originally posted by djs0ma

Originally posted by mOjOm


Now, when it comes to the 48 dead and 117 injured from an Airstrike by Plane, I think that is pretty strange. Perhaps it's just me though too. I also consider it a bit Radical to Hunt Quale with an Uzi and Duck with an AK as well. Just how low was this plane flying anyway? And at what speed? Also, how many passes did it take to rack up them 48 dead, including children, as well as 117 injured, before realizing, Oops! My bad??

once troops are engaged (firing upon troops would be enough to engage) these gunships keep firing until everything is "neutralized". Moral of this story, dont shoot at us!

This was a plane, not a gunship. Which is why I'm wondering how many passes had to be made, or was it just one pass and bombing the hell out of the entire area.

Another thing comes to mind as well. The situation occured accidentally and got out of hand apparently. I wonder if these types of accidental events are the reason for so many deaths and downed aircraft by our own team? Sometimes quick reactionary 'KILL & BOMB EVERYTHING' type of tactics aren't so good. Acurate and detailed information about your potential target may be useful and may even lead to less civilian Iraqi deaths and U.S. Soldier Deaths as well. Once you turn the area into flaming swiss cheese, it's a little late to turn back or correct a mistake.

I repeat. They have night vision, they can just hover away - damn it is night!

At night they can hover like 2km away and 2 high in the sky - look at that whole stuff.
But no....hell no. Let's ask for an air strike for something that might have been an attack on our armored helicopter. No 2nd check what's down there...

this is pure stupidity and if this is normal in the US army...normal procedure...you guys still wonder why you are the most hatred nation in the world?

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by shoo]

Originally posted by Djarums
And once again we see people who have never been in an evironment where people want to kill you passing judgement. It's almost amusing yet sad at the same time.

We've come off a span of a few months in which hundreds of American soldiers have been killed. Some of them by such little tiny harmless things like MACHINE GUNS.

If it's a fun pastime in Iraq to shoot machine guns into the air, well maybe it's not the appropriate time to do that. Machine guns can carry fairly high wouldn't you say? So if a plane patrolling at low altitudes detects that it's being fired upon, what the hell do you want them to do? Land and say "Hey buddies, we caught some bullets whizzing by a few moments ago, are you trying to kill us or celebrating something?"

But no... no one understands how such a mistake could be made. It's more fun to be a hindsight general!! It's more fun to portray America as mass murderers!!

Those of you who insist on Monday morning quarterbacking other people's lives should join the 9/11 commission. Birds of a feather...

Come on now, I've already said in this post, and in many others, I'm not pushing Judgement around or calling the Soldiers a bunch of Evil Iraqi Civilian Hunters or anything. Granted it's a War Zone, probably you'd want to stay reletively low key just to be safe. Yet at the same time, We are there to LIBERATE THEM right? Well, perhaps we could be a little more careful about the way we go about it, for their safety as well as ours. These kinds of slip-ups makes Iraqi civilian support that much more difficult.

Sure, it's strange to have a wedding at 3am in the desert shooting guns. But these aren't exactly the most Socially Educated bunch of people either, so flexibility is important. Now, again with our Superior Technology and Military Might which we praise and talk about to no end, I would expect Surprses like Wedding Parties to be something noticed before it becomes a problem. Imagine how deep through the line an actual sneak attack would get??

Anyway, I'm just saying it's a bit of a cluster-f*ck for a War that was said to be over a year ago, and was supposed to be turned over and liberated next month. I don't really blame the soldiers either. Nobody is cool when you're being shot at. Obviously, like the rest of the administration, Leadership and Intelligent Direction is for sh*t, all across the board on this one.

duh Do the Iraqies live under rocks ? Don't they have enough common sense to know that thier gun firing during wedding should be postponed in war time and especailly with a damn helicopter hoovering overhead ?

Please people... its war time .... Our soldiers are being killed and thier heads are being cut off... Better to be safe than sorry in a war situation. Time to tell the iraq people that firing of guns during weddings is prohibited until further notice... dayum thier common sense should have told them that already.

while you condemn the iraqis for celebrating their weddings in traditional manner and blame them for getting fired on....please consider that when you invade a country, you should atleast know the traditions, the lifestyle and customs of the people you invade...perhaps then you will able to tell the terrorists apart from the civilians and not create more enemies instead of friends.

it's not like the US wasn't aware that in the Middle East people fire guns at weddings...and don't act like none of us ever went to a party or wedding that went on into the wee hours of the morning.

there has to be some sort of differentiation when it comes to women and children vs. militant gunmen and terrorists.

someone please stop this runaway train before it crashes.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
while you condemn the iraqis for celebrating their weddings in traditional manner and blame them for getting fired on....please consider that when you invade a country, you should atleast know the traditions, the lifestyle and customs of the people you invade...perhaps then you will able to tell the terrorists apart from the civilians and not create more enemies instead of friends.

it's not like the US wasn't aware that in the Middle East people fire guns at weddings...and don't act like none of us ever went to a party or wedding that went on into the wee hours of the morning.

there has to be some sort of differentiation when it comes to women and children vs. militant gunmen and terrorists.

someone please stop this runaway train before it crashes.

Exactly! Either this happened because 1. The U.S. military didn't care that it was a wedding or 2. it was based on bad intelligence again. I can't say which is the correct answer but honestly can you disprove either of these possibilities?

Originally posted by JayKew

Its a pity these gunships werent about at my wedding.

I just got a great visual image of how much better it would have made my wedding too.

I think though this is just a big misunderstanding. The gunships were supposed to be dispatched to MASSACHUSETTS weddings.

perhaps then you will able to tell the terrorists apart from the civilians and not create more enemies instead of friends

This is VERY easy to do at any time other than when the shots are being fired.

there has to be some sort of differentiation when it comes to women and children vs. militant gunmen and terrorists

I'm sure it wasn't women or children shooting the guns, and I am baffled by the fact that no one finds anything wrong with shooting deadly projectiles in the air in the presence of women and children. For those who are scientifically challenged here's a good one for you: What goes up must come down. But that's really beside the point.

I think weddings are nice. I think celebrations in general are nice. But we need to use common sense. There's a war going on there. Maybe in wartime when tensions are very high it's not the brightest thing to start firing off weapons.

If it's any consolation to you I would say that if someone decided to hold a scavenger hunt game in washington dc and leave unmarked brown paper bags on the steps of the capital, in the mall, and at the lincoln memorial I would consider them insane as well. Using some discretion at dangerous times is a smart thing to do.

Originally posted by Djarums


I'm sure it wasn't women or children shooting the guns, and I am baffled by the fact that no one finds anything wrong with shooting deadly projectiles in the air in the presence of women and children. For those who are scientifically challenged here's a good one for you: What goes up must come down.

You make a good point Djarums but remember they may not care. It is after all their country. We don't make the rules in that country. They can do whatever they want. Maybe they should be wise that their country is at war but since when should they listen to us.

Collatoral Damage is the term I believe the U.S. will use for this. They keep bragging about how good the thermal imaging and FLIR technologies are, surely they could have seen through the viewer that it wasn't insergents. You'd be able to see that the people weren't laid out in a battle posture.

More ramifications for this one.

I wouldn't recommend any Americans travelling abroad. Of course U.S. warplanes killed 4 Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan when they were told it was friendlies. Maybe U.S. pilots should layoff the "GO PILLS".