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Twenty-Five Reasons to Doubt

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posted on Nov, 20 2009 @ 03:38 AM
reply to post by Agree2Disagree

Why is it backwards to want God to find me? He's the one that's all powerful, I'm just doing my best to have an open mind and if he doesn't show himself it is his mistake (as he is the all powerful one). If God wants to save me he can all he has to do is show himself. But I am seeking, in that I am asking all the big questions of life the Universe and everything and have an open mind but at the same time I've closed my mind to the human answers/religions designed to temporarily fill that "God" void.

I remain an open minded agnostic shrugging my shoulders in uncertainty and trying to be a decent person.. that's all I really can do.

posted on Nov, 20 2009 @ 03:41 AM

It's not that easy friend, I wish it was.

You can't sit back and expect God to come to you. You must give to receive. Open your heart and He will show Himself.

posted on Nov, 20 2009 @ 10:20 AM
Actually the bible is pretty clear on what it takes to be saved. In Acts, I forget wat chapter and verse ill look it up if needed but it pretty much says wat I wrote in my last post.

And you argued or stated that there is no proof that jesus existed just second hand accounts only but you said he would be sad to learn his teachings and word was being used by the romans for bad. Do you believe that he existed and that he died for you so that you can be saved. Or are you just saying there is no proof to make your point of this thread.

Its not a bad thing to have question, anyone with a brain would have questions but you have to find the answers for yourself and it seems as if you've given up on searching. Just because the denominations you were introduced to didn't sit well with you is no reason to forget jesus or God never existed or isn't the God we all think he is. I belong to a non-denominational church and any question I've ever wondered I've received the answer to and I learn and grow in my faith and wisdom as a christian.

Star for the above post. Open your heart

[edit on 11/20/2009 by Bean328]

posted on Nov, 20 2009 @ 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
This is not meant to create doubt about your faith in a Creator, merely in the flawed human perception of God put forth by Christianity and the Bible. This thread is directed at those who take the Bible literally or believe it is the Word of God but all input is welcome.

Flaw 1: God is supposedly loving and merciful, yet sees fit that every first born CHILD of Egypt is to be mercilessly killed, this punishment is said to befall all who do not spread the blood on their doors, this would include innocents (who are, I remind you CHILDREN). Rather than punishing Pharaoh for his sin God punishes the most innocent of Egyptian people.

Flaw 2: All Loving merciful God sees fit to damn people to an ETERNAL pit of fiery torment. God offers absurd choice “Either serve me or burn forever” and then remains utterly silent and says nothing causing men and women to end up serving a morally bankrupt Church Doctrine.

Flaw 3: God commands the Hebrews to slaughter every living thing in Jericho, I assume there were children living there also.

Flaw 4: Slaves are taken in several cities as the Israelites make their way to the "promised land". We are to believe God condones slavery?

Flaw 4.1: Numbers 31: 17-18 'Virgin' Slaves taken by supposed "Chosen" Israelites, supposedly people of God. They get away with it and God doesn't is never shown to step in and punish them for this sickening deviant behavior. Directly before this Verse, in the Chapter, the Israelites also have children as slaves along with the women so child slavery is condoned (and we can only imagine the horrors the virgin girls will face).

Flaw 5: God let's Satan test job by killing Job's children and robbing Job of everything he owns (again God is standing back and allowing the deaths of children for no reason.) Job 42:11 Says God brought the calamity upon Job.

Flaw 6: The Bible robs an older flood story from the Epic of Gilgamesh, in the story the All Mighty God, who IS LOVE, decides to drown every living thing including thousands of innocent children. He rescues Noah, supposedly righteous, who later gets drunk and lays around naked (and yet in Genesis 6:9 it claims Noah was perfect).

Flaw 7: Ages of people before flood are either exaggerated or mistranslated. In fact historical evidence shows early man, due to poor nutrition and lack of medicine died much earlier than we do today and had stunted growth.

Flaw 8: Tower of Babel, we are led to believe that an ancient people thought they could build a tower into Heaven (remember Heaven here means sky, so apparently this is before God relocated out into Space and was just in the upper atmosphere). God becomes worried they will break through the clouds
and so sends them into terrible chaos (some loving being, rather than move Heaven to another location he decides to screw with our brains).

Flaw 9: Numerous books thrown out of and added into the Bible. A Fragment of the Book of Enoch remains in Genesis but the book as a whole was thrown out. Many Gospels were tossed out.

Flaw 10: God sets up 10 Commandments and can't seem to follow some of his own rules.

Flaw 11: God smites Sodom and Gomorrah supposedly filled with evil people but I'm guessing at least a few of those people had KIDS, we can only assume those children were killed or turned to salt like Lot's wife. So apparently we see a trend of God enjoying the slaughter of children.

Flaw 12: God has Abraham nearly kill his son Isaac. More bizarre pagan blood sacrifice stuff.

Flaw 13: The Bible and Christians claim fornication is a sin and that God intends marriage before sex and yet our biology allows us to have sex prior to marriage and no such prerogative for marriage exists in our biology/instinct. The Bible further practices double standards by allowing many people in its pages to have more than one spouse.

Flaw 14: A PERFECT being creates imperfect ones and then blames the imperfect beings when they turn out to be more mistake-prone then he anticipated.

Flaw 15: Dinosaurs, where are they mentioned in the Bible? (and don't give me that Behemoth or Leviathan routine, I've read it all before).

Flaw 16: God, a supposedly perfect being, decides to plant a fruit bearing tree in the middle of the new Garden he made for Adam and Eve and yet he doesn't want them to eat from the tree. Seems an awful MISTAKE to make considering what happens down the line.

Flaw 17: God apparently forgets to put security guards up and a talking snake gets into the Garden. Seems another bad decision by God.

Flaw 18: Forgets to give Adam and Eve knowledge of right and wrong and so they were ignorant when they sinned and ate the fruit, shouldn't that absolve them from the sin (how can someone sin if they do not know right-from-wrong)? God doesn't think so in fact he's so mad he's going to curse EVERYONE who is human and a great deal of the rest of his creation gets cursed too, for eating from a tree HE planted there in the first place.

Flaw 19: One verse tells Slaves to obey their masters. Another says wives ought to be subservient to their husbands.

Flaw 20: Romans write the verse "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" in order to downplay Jesus' anti-religion anti-establishment teachings.

Flaw 21: Deuteronomy 22: 23-30 Deals with rape, apparently a woman raped is to be FORCED into marrying her rapist in certain cases and in other cases is to be STONED TO DEATH. Again these are God's "chosen" doing this and God seems to either condone or at the least shrug it off as no big deal.

Flaw 22: Contrary to Jesus’ teachings of being responsible for your own soul, salvation and sin, his followers buy into some weird human-sacrifice based system where they have to bathe in BLOOD of their innocent suffering Savior (and drink the blood during Communion). If this idea is some weird CULT idea I don't know what is.


Log in your own Eye
Golden Rule
Judge Not let you be Judged

Flaw 23: Numbers 25: 4 God (remember he is supposed to be a loving God) commands Moses to put the decapitated heads of their enemies before him so he can enjoy them. This is grotesque and absurd. Jeremiah 13:14 shows God becoming a merciless destructive being (a complete role reversal from how he is depicted in modern doctrine)

"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

Flaw 24: Genesis 17 and 1st Chronicles 16:15 claims God's Covenant with Abraham will be everlasting and yet a few thousand years later he sends Jesus, so why did he claim it was everlasting if Jesus was right there (as part of him) and knew what would happen in the future? The New Testament claims Christians are no longer under the old law/covenant.

Flaw 25: The God who will "never leave you or forsake you" and who is "not willing that any shall perish but that all shall come to salvation" decides to kill most people on the Earth in the book of Revelation. Famine, war, death, stars falling, plagues, horrors BEYOND IMAGINING all PERPETRATED by a LOVING GOD. If this isn't a glaring enough contradiction to make question the validity of the Bible then you should check yourself into a mental hospital. To make matters worse after killing so many most of them will be melting in the Lake of Fire for an ETERNITY of HORRIFIC death and agony.

This should make you realize the conspiracy, minds working together to form a religious control grid that dictates how you think and behave using guilt, superstition, group psychology and fear. THERE’S A REASON THE BIBLE WANTS YOU TO BE A SHEEP IN A FLOCK! Organized Religion wants you to use a Middle-Man, wants you to believe the flawed writers of the Bible and obey the word of Pastors, Priests and Popes searching for God or truth you are taught that to question what you are told will ultimately damn you forever.

I find no flaws. Serve God and live... or fight him and die... What is so hard to understand. God is a loving savior to those that want him and love him. But God is your worst possible nightmare if you choose to fight against Him and defy Him. We are the created and He is the Creator. We have no rights that God should comply as if we are that important in ourselves. It is God alone that can say to the soul that it should live and the soul that fights Him that it should die. So no flaws from what I see. To me, my God is my loving savior. How about you, what's He to you..?

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 12:50 AM
reply to post by Fromabove

Again there is a failure to comprehend the point of this whole thread. I am not fighting God I am fighting the Bible and the flawed religion that follows it. Please try to separate God from the screwed up religion humans have created in an attempt to understand him.

The Bible is not God. The Bible IS flawed, it is not perfect.

God would not decide to damn anyone who questions a silly self-contradicting book and anyone who thinks he would believes in a mean exclusionary merciless God.

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 01:02 AM
reply to post by Bean328

I myself do believe Jesus existed though there is very little evidence to go on I highly doubt the Romans were smart enough to fabricate so brilliant a philosopher out of nothing. No I don't believe he existed so that I could be saved, I think he existed so he could teach people how to save themselves through love and that thanks to the addition of certain supernatural elements its believed he died for everyone. Really I think he taught responsibility for one's own sin, I don't think he would have wanted people to use him like some supernatural genie or talk about "power in the blood" or any of the other bizarre stuff many believe. His message was lost and today many Christians spend so much time praying to God begging for pay raises and believing their preachers word is law they neglect what the whole thing was all about to begin with, love.

Doubt in human religion caused me to start from scratch as an agnostic with no specific beliefs and I remain as such, open minded but skeptical so as not to be sold into the slavery of blind faith ever again. This way if I find God or he reveals himself I know it is a true God and am not relying on being spoonfed by dangerously flawed religious teachings of man.

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 02:10 AM
5) To God, life is but a blink of the eye. Children are pure of heart and so their judgment goes easy. Job was tested for a number of reasons. 1st - He was already prepared to be tested. 2nd - Job needed to know the outcome. He needed to see his own integrity come under fire. He needed to know his own strength in the spirit. 3rd - Tests lead to the next phase. Maturity and assurance. He becomes stronger. He is even rewarded.

"42:12So the Lord ablessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.
14 And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Keren-happuch.
15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons’ sons, even four generations. "

6)It claims Noah was perfect IN HIS GENERATION. He was by no means a perfect man. The flood story is not stolen, rather, a common point of origin.

7) It all depends on how time was measured. Many theologians believe that the years were not 365-day cycles. Others believe that there was no consumption of meat until after the Flood while others maintain that the accumulation of sin led up to shorter lifespans. Again, it's all relative to how long a "year" is.

8) The Tower of Babel is more commonly thought to be a centralised religious center as a rallying point which is in a direct definace of God's commandment to Noah and his sons. In genesis God says that humanity was to subjugate the earth by dispersing themselves. The builders of the tower on the other hand, were trying to get a centralised location to avoid being dispersed. Thus, their consequence would be one that is both just and fulfills the commandment at the same time. Thus, dispersing the people(fulfillment) and confounding their language(punishment).

Still working on the rest; gimme time, I'll get to all of them eventually.

Respectfully, A2D

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 02:11 AM

Originally posted by dthwraith
reply to post by Skyfloating

The God of the Old Testament is not the God Jesus is referring to in the New Testament. The Old Testament God is an Extraterrestrial who is posing as God. The God Jesus refers to is the Supreme Source.

It's very seldom I see someone say something so stupid and so wrong, someone who clearly beyond a shadow of doubt has no understanding whats so ever of what they are talking about.

Jeff Foxworthy would say "heres your sign."

I long ago stoped caring about what people posted here, but I just had to respond to that cracked out post.

I like to read at least most of a thread before posting, but had to stop here for a moment to laugh at you. Firstly, while I disagree with the ET thing, who are you to call that stupid? Is it because they believe that it was an alien, and you believe it was an invisible sky-daddy?

What I really thought was hilarious is that you call someones thoughts stupid on the basis of not knowing what they are talking about, and use the "Here's your sign" thing, giving credit to the wrong comedian...

Before you call someone stupid for not knowing what they are talking about make sure you know what the he!! you are talking about first.

[edit on 21-11-2009 by Majiq]

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 08:33 AM
you speak a lot about blind faith. what do you think faith is.
the bible says in hebrews 11:1, "now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".
do you think God is just going to show up waving and say here i am. the bible is flawed but believe in me. the bible isnt flawed i think you just have a hard time believing it. in which, you dont have any faith. and if you think you are having blind faith by believing the truth of jesus and the truth of God heres a little lesson in faith.

hebrews 11:6, "but without faith it is impossible to please him, for he who comes to God must believe tha he is, and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him".

11:8, starts with "by Faith Abraham...."
11:11, by Faith Sarah..."
11:20, by Faith Isaac..."
11:21, by Faith Jacob..."
11:22, by Faith Joseph..."
11:23, by Faith Moses..."

do you believe that they all had blind faith?
Abraham had his named changed from abram at the age 99. God changed his name to "father of many nations". you dont think it took FAITH for abraham to trust God in believing him and his wife would have many children?
Sarah bore a child at the age of 91, you dont think that took FAITH?
Moses parted the red sea so he and his fellow israelites could escape egypt. you dont think it took FAITH in God for Moses to do all that he did?

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 10:13 AM

Originally posted by timlumber
God exists, and DO NOT BASH HIM, for your time will come! God is of Alien decent, I met him during an abduction in 2000. He is dark grey and looks kinda like a frogman, with what appeared to be scales. God has his own battles. There are billions of people on Earth, God can help each one of us, that is just arragance asking him that. He gave us life, respect him!

Ok, had to take another pause to reply to this. You sir need medication, and if I ever do by some strange chance meet your God... Yeah that lizard/frog/gray thing he is likely to get bashed, with a stick, over and over...

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 01:04 PM

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

In order to seek God I must first reach some simple conclusions, the first conclusion I reached was that all religion is flawed and seems aimed at controlling behavior and creating slaves rather than setting one's soul free. After tossing out organized religion I turned to some attributes I believed a true God would have.

In order to create this vast Universe any true God would be bigger than one religion, one group of people, and would certainly be present in all things. The Universe would be an extension of God or God's Will and so we would all be a piece of God. God wouldn't pick one religion, one book and damn the rest, that's the limited thinking of man, doesn't sound like divine planning to me. A God found through blind faith and indoctrination would be a false one.

So I became an agnostic,

Man never seeks after God. Man has nothing in him that says, "Today I will seek out God!"

Rather man seeks after a god or idols (money, sex, drugs, power, fame) that appease or cater to his selfish desires. In other words because the God within Scripture demands perfection and reveals to man his depraved state man seeks after things that basically say it's OK to live as you do.

After all why would any sane person want to serve such a Righteous God that in turn demands the same from His creation? Which makes one ask the question, "Why would man create or make up such a demanding God?"

If I asked you again to create your own God your God would in no way be so Righteous and Holy. He would be accepting of all, as you have already hinted to.

So before you go on this hunt for God you must grasp that no one ever seeks after God. God calls His chosen to Him. No one was ever saved based on their own choice.

You keep using the word "religion". Why? It's a made up word by men correct? Jesus rebuked the religious people of His day. He rebuked long repetitious prayer and all the pomp that goes with man made religion. So what makes you think God works within a religion?

Lastly you claim to be an "agnostic" yet you seem to KNOW a great deal about God and what He would or wouldn't be alike. Doesn't that contradict what being an agnostic is?

In other words if an agnostic cannot know anything of or about God he or she in fact does know something about God.....they KNOW that they can know nothing of or about Him. Thus that world view is self refuting which then collapses into skepticism but then is one ever skeptical of being a skeptic? They both fail.

Last lastly......God does not work based on "blind faith". What makes you believe that? Did you hear it, read it? If you read it why do you believe it when it's just made by fallible men? Why do you trust anything you read since it was created by men, just like those who wrote the Bible, with an agenda? It's because you have already developed a set idea of God prior to reading anything. All that agrees with your preconceived notions about God and the Bible you will adhere to. All that counters those preconceived ideas MUST be in error.

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 05:34 PM
Well first of all I will give you a S+F for a decent post even though I don't wholly agree with everything you said a great deal of it is right on, and it at least points out a few of the many hypocritical/contradictory/Historically inaccurate statements in the bible. I am going to go point by point to throw in my two cents, and also try to address some of the other responses I have seen.

1 - I completely agree with you on this one. For those who say things like we are relating our idea of love and mercy, and cannot fathom what "Holy Love", and "Holy Mercy" are I think that is hogwash. If God's idea of love and mercy in more akin to human's ideas of hate, ruthlessness, jealousy, and wrath then you can keeps the sorry S.O.B. I have no use for him.

I have seen a few try to say that God did not curse the firstborn. One person said that it was Moses who dealt that curse out, and someone else pointed out Exodus 1, saying that it was Pharaoh who called for it.

First of all the incident in Exodus 1 is not what the OP was referring to. That was Pharaoh's order to kill all male newborns, not just the first, and it was an attempt to slow the population growth, and make them a predominately female race.

As far as whether it was God who cursed the firstborn of Egypt or Moses, I point you to Ex. 11 which starts out "1AND the Lord said unto Moses, yet will I bring one plague more unto Pharaoh, and upon Egypt;" A few verses later he reveals what that particular plague is, "4And Moses said, thus saith the Lord, About midnight I will go out into the midst of Egypt:5And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die" I think that makes it pretty clear.

Lastly I would like to address one more thing. It has been stated that God gave Pharaoh many chances, insinuating that it was Pharaoh who brought all the plagues on Egypt by not allowing Moses' people to leave, this is false. God purposefully hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not give in. God wanted to unleash all of his plagues on the Egyptians and made certain that he would be able to.

After that he had the Jews go around and "borrow" from the Egyptians, their jewels, gold, and silver which the the Egyptian lent do to the fact that God "gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians" As one last blow to the Egyptians, God hardened Pharaoh's heart once more so that he, and his army would follow the Israelites and be drowned in the Red Sea.

So, first God deals out a bunch of unnecessary plagues on Egypt by hardening Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the Jews go. The he has his people rob the Egyptians blind, by using his little magic trick to give the Jews "favour in the sight of the Egyptians" and getting his people to "borrow" what they wanted. Lastly after all that he murders Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, just for sh!ts and giggles.

Yeah, now there is a God to look up to

2 - Another good one, and one that I never understood. As a parent I cannot conceive of any thing no matter how horrible or detestable that my kids could do that would make me even wish this on them, much less carry out such a heinous sentence.

The same people who follow this God will condemn the Nazi's, but I say even Hitler wasn't cruel enough to sentence those he hated to never ending torture, he eventually killed the Jews. God is however that cruel, and these aren't people that he hates, in fact he loves them as him own children. But yeah, God's love is Holy love so go figure

3- God called for the complete genocide of many people, not just the people of Jericho, but nice point. I have seen it pointed out that the people of Jericho were wicked and Idolatrous, but God's laws about Idol worship had not been given to the people of Jericho yet so how could they possibly have been punished for hundreds of years of lawlessness when those laws were not established yet?

4 - Yup, God is all about some slavery, and I think you are very correct in your assumption that these particular slaves are to be used in a sexual manner, otherwise why not keep all the women as slaves.

As far as slavery as a subject I have seen some thing written here that I have to address.

First, that slaves were treated better in those days than in more recent times. That is crap, slavery is slavery is slavery... Thomas Jefferson was noted as treating his slaves so well that many of them decided to stay with him even after they were freed, is it your argument that if all American slave owners had treated their slaves as well as him that it would have been ok to keep slavery around?

Also it has been stated that the bible must be taken in context, and that humanity was much more barbaric in those days, but that treatment of slaves was more humane? That sounds a little off, as the humane treatment of slaves would denote a more civilized people than in recent times. So which is it, were humans more humane, or more barbaric? I think that the answer to that is both depending on which one better suits your argument at the time.

5 - Can't say that I am terribly knowledgeable about Job other than the fact that it was a screwed up bet between God and Satan. Now as far as those who have said "It's cool because in the end he had more kids" Well from a man who has lost a child let me say FU#K YOU! I hope your kids die so that you can come back and tell me they can be replaced.

6 - The story of the flood is just flawed on so many levels. First of all the ark he built wasn't nearly big enough. Second, if he took pairs of animals then what did the carnivorous animals eat on this 40 day journey? Also how did all of the animals get to him? There are animals indigenous to the Americas for instance, how did they get across oceans in order to hop on the ark?

7 - You are quite correct that people of this time had a much lower life expectancy of people today, and those who disagree either too lazy to look up those fact, or don't want to see the truth. People from 3000 - 2000 BCE had an average height of 5'5" for males 5'0" for females and a life expectancy of 33.6 years for men and 29.4 for females. Life Expectancy Chart

8 - I believe that the Tower of Babel story was one made up to explain how if we all came from two people just a relatively short time why there were so many different languages. It does shed a little more light on God's jealous, insecure side though.

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 07:40 PM
9 - Right you are, and Oliveoil's "criteria" flawed to say the least.

1) The Books must have apostolic authority.
2) The document had to be congruent with the basic Christion tradition that the church recognized as normative
3) The documents had to continuously been exceptive and used by the church at large.

1 - Nope, none of the books of the NT have apostolic authority. Even Christian scholars admit that the names of the book do not reflect the authors. Only the book of Mark can be dated to have possibly been written in the first century.

2 - No, it had to be congruent with what the Roman Catholic church wanted to present. Before the Council of Nicea Christianity had many faces with many different teachings including the Gnostic teachings and such that the Catholics considered heresy. They also had to reflect well on the Roman Empire.

3 - Many, many text were accepted by many different churches. Some had been around longer than most of the book that were ultimately accepted. That was one of the major points of the council. The Many Presbyters at the time could not agree on what teachings were the right ones.

10 - Yes the 10 Commandments, but what are the real 10 Commandments? There is only one place in the bible where God gives commandments referred to as the "Ten Commandments" and that is in Exodus 34. They are as follows;
1) For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
2) Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3) The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
4) All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
5) Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
6) And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
7) Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.
8) Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the feast of the Passover be left until the morning.
9) The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
10) Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Not what you remember from Sunday school huh?

11 - That is a very screwed up story. Let us remember that Lot was the good guy. Yeah the guy who offered up his two virgin daughters to the mob the they could "do ye to them as is good in your eyes" Then there is his wife turned into salt for looking back and ultimately his daughters getting Lot drunk and having sex with him. Wow.. Gay angel rape, annihilation of whole cities, incest... Yeah this story is full of good times.

To the point of the OP yes, I am sure there were many innocent children there, but as we learn from the bible kids are just as wicked and deserving of a good smiting as anyone.

12 - Well he did this as a test, one that I would have failed miserably at after telling God to shove it and all of Heaven up his almighty a$$. I don't agree with your "More Pagan blood sacrifice" comment though. Most of the pagan religions were not into that. Christianity called for much more bloodshed than the Pagans.

13 - Well it goes to the religion being one of tyranny and control. If you can control the peoples most natural bodily functions then the rest should be a piece of cake.

14 - Yeah I never got that either. Why make people with free will if you are going to then say that those people can only use that free will to do exactly what you want.

15 - Yeah, you got 'em there. I'm surprised that more young earthers haven't come out to tell you that all the dragon myths are proof that humans and dinos were around at the same time.

16 - Yup imagine that, condemning all of mankind for Adam & Eve eating fruit when they had no knowledge at the time of right and wrong... Seems like a Holy set-up to me. Also another example of the myth of free will floating around Christianity.

17 - Ok, I don't have much to say about this one other than I think the snake was in on it with God from the get go. And before someone corrects me "It was a serpent, not a snake" I remind you to look at the dictionary. Snake is the first entry for the definition of serpent.

18 - This is just pretty much an extension of #16

19 - Yeah, and there many more instances in the bible that shows equality among humans isn't something that God holds in very high regard.

20 - I'm gonna skip this one. No one knows who wrote that, but I think you may not be far off.

21 - Once again, women are beneath men according to the bible. One person pointed out that woman was made from man, but I would like to remind that it all depends on what version of creation you subscribe to. The first starting in Gen 1:1 states that God created man and woman together on the sixth day. In the second account starting in Gen. 2 God does in fact create Eve from Adam.

23 - Yup, God is a nasty evil effer... He does like him some warring, no wonder W is a Christian.

24 - Well I think that is because God did not send Jesus at all.

25 - I think this one goes back to your #2 but the point is a good one

Anyways, that's my two cents. The Bible is full of a lot more crap but I didn't want to get off topic, and go past the scope of your 25 points.

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 09:35 PM
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

After all why would any sane person want to serve such a Righteous God that in turn demands the same from His creation? Which makes one ask the question, "Why would man create or make up such a demanding God?"

Not sure I understand your point. God doesn't demand righteousness, as far as I know he demands the two commandments Jesus laid out

Love thy neighbor
Love the Lord thy God

And really those are more like guidelines than actual rules

But Jesus, according to most denominations, dies for your sin so you don't have to live up to the Law in the Old Testament because everyone has sinned and fallen short... Or am I confused?

I think the reason they made God so demanding is part of the behavioral control. Guilt is a powerful tool and what better way to make people feel guilty than by telling them just about anything you do, say or think could be a sin. Lying a sin punishable by Hell, preposterous, I don't know ANYONE who doesn't lie on a daily basis (Christian or not). It's all part of the Obey or Burn control that the Bible was used for, just look at the oppression of other religions and science that when on for hundreds of years (perhaps more).

You keep using the word "religion". Why? It's a made up word by men correct? Jesus rebuked the religious people of His day. He rebuked long repetitious prayer and all the pomp that goes with man made religion. So what makes you think God works within a religion?

I use the word religion because that is what Christianity became. I know Jesus stood against the established religions of the day, it's one of the main reasons they killed him and one of the most admirable qualities about him. I don't think God works in a religion, if he exists I think he would hate religion and the division it brings. But that's the point, Christianity was never meant as a religion, it was a way of life based on JESUS's teachings but the Romans took it and changed all that creating a State-Sponsored religion. I take issue with Christianity as a religion, not as a way to live your life loving one another, but all the other nonsense that has been tacked on to create this big old monster religion that does more harm than good.

Many people believe blindly. They believe in Jesus only because they get a warm feeling in their heart when they pray or hear the stories or because they are indoctrinated at youth. Many believe the Bible is the perfect Word of God simply because it claims to be without realizing that ANYONE can write a story or a book and claim it to be true but one must look closer and question what you read to determine if it actually is true (not many people do this with the Bible, clearly, as many believe it 100% fact).

It's because you have already developed a set idea of God prior to reading anything

Yes, and do you know where my preconceived notions of God came from, from being raised in a Fundamentalist family and going to Church, reading the Bible. As a child I was led to believe it was all truth, every word of it and it wasn't until my teens, when trying to take Christianity seriously and find my calling, that I began to take a closer look at what I was being told and actually have the gall to question it (up until that time I'd been afraid to for fear of Hell). And once I started questioning it, reading and rereading it, I came to the conclusion I have now.

It wasn't a sudden conclusion. There was logic, the inconsistencies, unanswered questions and contradictions and also the fact that no matter how hard I prayed, begged, pleaded believed and asked Jesus to transform my heart I always left Church feeling hollow. Eventually, with the heavens entirely silent, logic crept in and all those questions I was afraid to ask became necessary. If the Bible could pass the test it would affirm my faith but amazingly it didn't, here this document I was taught to believe in unwaveringly wasn't absolute truth. Logic and science wouldn't be enemies of a God who was real, so I decided I should use them whereas before I'd been taught to distrust all science and history that didn't line up with the fairy-tales in the Bible.

So I started from scratch and threw out everything I'd been lead to believe, I threw out all religions. They could still be sources of wisdom or fascination but now I'd take everything with a grain of salt.

[edit on 22-11-2009 by Titen-Sxull]

posted on Dec, 3 2009 @ 11:32 PM
The obey or burn was just God mad. I speak on a context of beliving in God
I must admit that religion has created guilt has a tool. But when it comes to the spirit you are wrong. Mankind has changed and twisted the words of God. (rewritten books added/change) But the original Bible is sacred and pure. One again it doesn't make any sense to say that a force of energy gave me conciousness. Let's say God is a multi Concious universe. Wouldn't the greatest blessing be conciousness. It's a rarity in the universe and should noted for it. Forget the oppersion of science for a minute. Don't whine.

I've read much of all the info. A few things I must say.

WHy am I on your foe list. what you say makes sense. Complete sense. For a person whom experianced what you went through. So by now I'm not going to challenge your ideas because right now you seem to have a valid point. It's just funny how you left religion.. excuse me. spirituality. yes I dislike relgion too. I dislike it very much. but the spiritual side is greater.

If you left God it's up to you. but perhaps he never answered you because he knew you would sway to mans mind. just an idea. then again you don't believe in God.
[edit on 3-12-2009 by Jordan River]

[edit on 3-12-2009 by Jordan River]

posted on Dec, 4 2009 @ 03:57 AM
reply to post by Jordan River

this statement in particular prompted me to add you to my foes list. From the Is the Rapture coming thread.

My target is on the atheist and your agendas online. All you do is try to crush faith through logic

simply because I believe if there is a God logic would be a method to find Him not to defeat him, so deriding atheists for using logic seems silly. Science and logic should not be enemies of God, if he is real they would only make him more apparent. Don't take it personally I add people to my foes list on impulse based on sometimes just a few sentences and in fact several foes that used to be on my list ended up being my friends...

I have not given up on spirituality or the idea of God entirely. I consider myself an agnostic. I think if God exists it is not in the way we think of him or assume him to exist, human perception of God, laid out in religion, is flawed.

Be assured that if God had revealed himself to me back when I was a Christian I would still be a believer regardless of the "Sways of man". But no such Revelation has taken place and until it does, or until science verifies God, I remain an agnostic more or less shrugging my shoulders but at the same time trying to free people's minds from the prison bars of religion that hold them back.

[edit on 4-12-2009 by Titen-Sxull]

posted on Dec, 4 2009 @ 04:49 AM

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Jordan River

this statement in particular prompted me to add you to my foes list. From the Is the Rapture coming thread.

My target is on the atheist and your agendas online. All you do is try to crush faith through logic

simply because I believe if there is a God logic would be a method to find Him not to defeat him, so deriding atheists for using logic seems silly. Science and logic should not be enemies of God, if he is real they would only make him more apparent. Don't take it personally I add people to my foes list on impulse based on sometimes just a few sentences and in fact several foes that used to be on my list ended up being my friends...

I have not given up on spirituality or the idea of God entirely. I consider myself an agnostic. I think if God exists it is not in the way we think of him or assume him to exist, human perception of God, laid out in religion, is flawed.

Be assured that if God had revealed himself to me back when I was a Christian I would still be a believer regardless of the "Sways of man". But no such Revelation has taken place and until it does, or until science verifies God, I remain an agnostic more or less shrugging my shoulders but at the same time trying to free people's minds from the prison bars of religion that hold them back.

[edit on 4-12-2009 by Titen-Sxull]

Your problem is not if there is a God. But you are confused if God is all Good.

To understand why God did what he did. You also have to read about the people he sacrificed. They where not all innocent. That's one clue. The other is YES children are innocent. But they do grow up to become monsters as well. God sent three witnesses to that city. God gave them many warnings. And even a chance to repent without punishment. And some actually did and was saved.

Flaw 3. God Ordered the killing of the people because they worshiped false Idols and sacrificed children. In other words these people also used their own kids as amusement to worship their Idols. Some of these children would have grown up to keep the traditions alive.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

posted on Dec, 4 2009 @ 04:51 AM
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Oh goody a simple bible quiz...

Quiz Answer 1:

The Children of Israel had gone down into Egypt during draught but a new Pharaoh concerned by their increasing numbers enslaved them for hundreds of years.

The slavery was brutal and they were given no rest.

God through Moses sought to deliver them because of an agreement He had made to Abraham some 430 years previously.

God asked nicely at first and then sent plagues to persaude Pharaoh but he continued to refused.

The final plague was a threat to kill all first born who were not protected by a symbol of His power.

It was all first born of any age not just children...
...and there was the option to apply the blood themselves or to be in a dwelling that had blood on the door.

The bottom line is that God keeps His promises, asks nicely before executing judgment... should remember this, it may be handy one day.

posted on Dec, 4 2009 @ 05:05 AM
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Simple Quiz Answer #2

The idea of an eternal burning hell does not have its origin in the bible... is an idea read back into the biblical manuscripts from Greek origins.

The roots of the idea are found in Homer and later developed by Plato...
...popularized by Dante and employed by corrupt prelates as a device to threaten people into church membership and extract cash.

For more setails see my thread...Hell on (Google) Earth

posted on Dec, 4 2009 @ 05:18 AM
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Simple Quiz Answer #3

Jericho had been built by the Nephyl tribes bred up by the fallen Watchers to disrupt the mission of Israel...
...which was to preserve the ‘seed of men’...
...the slaughter was so the 'world of men' could survive...
...and so the genetic line of Adam could survive till the Messiah could be born from among them.

If you are human, your survival and the survival of your children depended on the slaughter of these hybrids too.

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