*sigh*

It's not that easy friend, I wish it was.

You can't sit back and expect God to come to you. You must give to receive. Open your heart and He will show Himself.

Actually the bible is pretty clear on what it takes to be saved. In Acts, I forget wat chapter and verse ill look it up if needed but it pretty much says wat I wrote in my last post.

And you argued or stated that there is no proof that jesus existed just second hand accounts only but you said he would be sad to learn his teachings and word was being used by the romans for bad. Do you believe that he existed and that he died for you so that you can be saved. Or are you just saying there is no proof to make your point of this thread.

Its not a bad thing to have question, anyone with a brain would have questions but you have to find the answers for yourself and it seems as if you've given up on searching. Just because the denominations you were introduced to didn't sit well with you is no reason to forget jesus or God never existed or isn't the God we all think he is. I belong to a non-denominational church and any question I've ever wondered I've received the answer to and I learn and grow in my faith and wisdom as a christian.

Star for the above post. Open your heart

[edit on 11/20/2009 by Bean328]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
This is not meant to create doubt about your faith in a Creator, merely in the flawed human perception of God put forth by Christianity and the Bible. This thread is directed at those who take the Bible literally or believe it is the Word of God but all input is welcome.

Flaw 1: God is supposedly loving and merciful, yet sees fit that every first born CHILD of Egypt is to be mercilessly killed, this punishment is said to befall all who do not spread the blood on their doors, this would include innocents (who are, I remind you CHILDREN). Rather than punishing Pharaoh for his sin God punishes the most innocent of Egyptian people.

Flaw 2: All Loving merciful God sees fit to damn people to an ETERNAL pit of fiery torment. God offers absurd choice “Either serve me or burn forever” and then remains utterly silent and says nothing causing men and women to end up serving a morally bankrupt Church Doctrine.

Flaw 3: God commands the Hebrews to slaughter every living thing in Jericho, I assume there were children living there also.

Flaw 4: Slaves are taken in several cities as the Israelites make their way to the "promised land". We are to believe God condones slavery?

Flaw 4.1: Numbers 31: 17-18 'Virgin' Slaves taken by supposed "Chosen" Israelites, supposedly people of God. They get away with it and God doesn't is never shown to step in and punish them for this sickening deviant behavior. Directly before this Verse, in the Chapter, the Israelites also have children as slaves along with the women so child slavery is condoned (and we can only imagine the horrors the virgin girls will face).

Flaw 5: God let's Satan test job by killing Job's children and robbing Job of everything he owns (again God is standing back and allowing the deaths of children for no reason.) Job 42:11 Says God brought the calamity upon Job.

Flaw 6: The Bible robs an older flood story from the Epic of Gilgamesh, in the story the All Mighty God, who IS LOVE, decides to drown every living thing including thousands of innocent children. He rescues Noah, supposedly righteous, who later gets drunk and lays around naked (and yet in Genesis 6:9 it claims Noah was perfect).

Flaw 7: Ages of people before flood are either exaggerated or mistranslated. In fact historical evidence shows early man, due to poor nutrition and lack of medicine died much earlier than we do today and had stunted growth.

Flaw 8: Tower of Babel, we are led to believe that an ancient people thought they could build a tower into Heaven (remember Heaven here means sky, so apparently this is before God relocated out into Space and was just in the upper atmosphere). God becomes worried they will break through the clouds and so sends them into terrible chaos (some loving being, rather than move Heaven to another location he decides to screw with our brains).

Flaw 9: Numerous books thrown out of and added into the Bible. A Fragment of the Book of Enoch remains in Genesis but the book as a whole was thrown out. Many Gospels were tossed out.

Flaw 10: God sets up 10 Commandments and can't seem to follow some of his own rules.

Flaw 11: God smites Sodom and Gomorrah supposedly filled with evil people but I'm guessing at least a few of those people had KIDS, we can only assume those children were killed or turned to salt like Lot's wife. So apparently we see a trend of God enjoying the slaughter of children.

Flaw 12: God has Abraham nearly kill his son Isaac. More bizarre pagan blood sacrifice stuff.

Flaw 13: The Bible and Christians claim fornication is a sin and that God intends marriage before sex and yet our biology allows us to have sex prior to marriage and no such prerogative for marriage exists in our biology/instinct. The Bible further practices double standards by allowing many people in its pages to have more than one spouse.

Flaw 14: A PERFECT being creates imperfect ones and then blames the imperfect beings when they turn out to be more mistake-prone then he anticipated.

Flaw 15: Dinosaurs, where are they mentioned in the Bible? (and don't give me that Behemoth or Leviathan routine, I've read it all before).

Flaw 16: God, a supposedly perfect being, decides to plant a fruit bearing tree in the middle of the new Garden he made for Adam and Eve and yet he doesn't want them to eat from the tree. Seems an awful MISTAKE to make considering what happens down the line.

Flaw 17: God apparently forgets to put security guards up and a talking snake gets into the Garden. Seems another bad decision by God.

Flaw 18: Forgets to give Adam and Eve knowledge of right and wrong and so they were ignorant when they sinned and ate the fruit, shouldn't that absolve them from the sin (how can someone sin if they do not know right-from-wrong)? God doesn't think so in fact he's so mad he's going to curse EVERYONE who is human and a great deal of the rest of his creation gets cursed too, for eating from a tree HE planted there in the first place.

Flaw 19: One verse tells Slaves to obey their masters. Another says wives ought to be subservient to their husbands.

Flaw 20: Romans write the verse "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" in order to downplay Jesus' anti-religion anti-establishment teachings.

Flaw 21: Deuteronomy 22: 23-30 Deals with rape, apparently a woman raped is to be FORCED into marrying her rapist in certain cases and in other cases is to be STONED TO DEATH. Again these are God's "chosen" doing this and God seems to either condone or at the least shrug it off as no big deal.

Flaw 22: Contrary to Jesus’ teachings of being responsible for your own soul, salvation and sin, his followers buy into some weird human-sacrifice based system where they have to bathe in BLOOD of their innocent suffering Savior (and drink the blood during Communion). If this idea is some weird CULT idea I don't know what is.

Self-Responsibility:

Log in your own Eye
Golden Rule
Judge Not let you be Judged

Flaw 23: Numbers 25: 4 God (remember he is supposed to be a loving God) commands Moses to put the decapitated heads of their enemies before him so he can enjoy them. This is grotesque and absurd. Jeremiah 13:14 shows God becoming a merciless destructive being (a complete role reversal from how he is depicted in modern doctrine)

"And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them."

Flaw 24: Genesis 17 and 1st Chronicles 16:15 claims God's Covenant with Abraham will be everlasting and yet a few thousand years later he sends Jesus, so why did he claim it was everlasting if Jesus was right there (as part of him) and knew what would happen in the future? The New Testament claims Christians are no longer under the old law/covenant.

Flaw 25: The God who will "never leave you or forsake you" and who is "not willing that any shall perish but that all shall come to salvation" decides to kill most people on the Earth in the book of Revelation. Famine, war, death, stars falling, plagues, horrors BEYOND IMAGINING all PERPETRATED by a LOVING GOD. If this isn't a glaring enough contradiction to make question the validity of the Bible then you should check yourself into a mental hospital. To make matters worse after killing so many most of them will be melting in the Lake of Fire for an ETERNITY of HORRIFIC death and agony.

This should make you realize the conspiracy, minds working together to form a religious control grid that dictates how you think and behave using guilt, superstition, group psychology and fear. THERE’S A REASON THE BIBLE WANTS YOU TO BE A SHEEP IN A FLOCK! Organized Religion wants you to use a Middle-Man, wants you to believe the flawed writers of the Bible and obey the word of Pastors, Priests and Popes searching for God or truth you are taught that to question what you are told will ultimately damn you forever.

I find no flaws. Serve God and live... or fight him and die... What is so hard to understand. God is a loving savior to those that want him and love him. But God is your worst possible nightmare if you choose to fight against Him and defy Him. We are the created and He is the Creator. We have no rights that God should comply as if we are that important in ourselves. It is God alone that can say to the soul that it should live and the soul that fights Him that it should die. So no flaws from what I see. To me, my God is my loving savior. How about you, what's He to you..?

5) To God, life is but a blink of the eye. Children are pure of heart and so their judgment goes easy. Job was tested for a number of reasons. 1st - He was already prepared to be tested. 2nd - Job needed to know the outcome. He needed to see his own integrity come under fire. He needed to know his own strength in the spirit. 3rd - Tests lead to the next phase. Maturity and assurance. He becomes stronger. He is even rewarded.

"42:12So the Lord ablessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
13 He had also seven sons and three daughters.
14 And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Keren-happuch.
15 And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.
16 After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons’ sons, even four generations. "

6)It claims Noah was perfect IN HIS GENERATION. He was by no means a perfect man. The flood story is not stolen, rather, a common point of origin.

7) It all depends on how time was measured. Many theologians believe that the years were not 365-day cycles. Others believe that there was no consumption of meat until after the Flood while others maintain that the accumulation of sin led up to shorter lifespans. Again, it's all relative to how long a "year" is.

8) The Tower of Babel is more commonly thought to be a centralised religious center as a rallying point which is in a direct definace of God's commandment to Noah and his sons. In genesis God says that humanity was to subjugate the earth by dispersing themselves. The builders of the tower on the other hand, were trying to get a centralised location to avoid being dispersed. Thus, their consequence would be one that is both just and fulfills the commandment at the same time. Thus, dispersing the people(fulfillment) and confounding their language(punishment).



Still working on the rest; gimme time, I'll get to all of them eventually.

Respectfully, A2D

you speak a lot about blind faith. what do you think faith is.
the bible says in hebrews 11:1, "now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".
do you think God is just going to show up waving and say here i am. the bible is flawed but believe in me. the bible isnt flawed i think you just have a hard time believing it. in which, you dont have any faith. and if you think you are having blind faith by believing the truth of jesus and the truth of God heres a little lesson in faith.

hebrews 11:6, "but without faith it is impossible to please him, for he who comes to God must believe tha he is, and that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him".

11:8, starts with "by Faith Abraham...."
11:11, by Faith Sarah..."
11:20, by Faith Isaac..."
11:21, by Faith Jacob..."
11:22, by Faith Joseph..."
11:23, by Faith Moses..."

do you believe that they all had blind faith?
Abraham had his named changed from abram at the age 99. God changed his name to "father of many nations". you dont think it took FAITH for abraham to trust God in believing him and his wife would have many children?
Sarah bore a child at the age of 91, you dont think that took FAITH?
Moses parted the red sea so he and his fellow israelites could escape egypt. you dont think it took FAITH in God for Moses to do all that he did?

Originally posted by timlumber
God exists, and DO NOT BASH HIM, for your time will come! God is of Alien decent, I met him during an abduction in 2000. He is dark grey and looks kinda like a frogman, with what appeared to be scales. God has his own battles. There are billions of people on Earth, God can help each one of us, that is just arragance asking him that. He gave us life, respect him!

Ok, had to take another pause to reply to this. You sir need medication, and if I ever do by some strange chance meet your God... Yeah that lizard/frog/gray thing he is likely to get bashed, with a stick, over and over...

9 - Right you are, and Oliveoil's "criteria" flawed to say the least.

1) The Books must have apostolic authority.
2) The document had to be congruent with the basic Christion tradition that the church recognized as normative
3) The documents had to continuously been exceptive and used by the church at large.

1 - Nope, none of the books of the NT have apostolic authority. Even Christian scholars admit that the names of the book do not reflect the authors. Only the book of Mark can be dated to have possibly been written in the first century.

2 - No, it had to be congruent with what the Roman Catholic church wanted to present. Before the Council of Nicea Christianity had many faces with many different teachings including the Gnostic teachings and such that the Catholics considered heresy. They also had to reflect well on the Roman Empire.

3 - Many, many text were accepted by many different churches. Some had been around longer than most of the book that were ultimately accepted. That was one of the major points of the council. The Many Presbyters at the time could not agree on what teachings were the right ones.

10 - Yes the 10 Commandments, but what are the real 10 Commandments? There is only one place in the bible where God gives commandments referred to as the "Ten Commandments" and that is in Exodus 34. They are as follows;
1) For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
2) Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3) The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
4) All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
5) Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
6) And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
7) Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel.
8) Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the feast of the Passover be left until the morning.
9) The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
10) Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

Not what you remember from Sunday school huh?

11 - That is a very screwed up story. Let us remember that Lot was the good guy. Yeah the guy who offered up his two virgin daughters to the mob the they could "do ye to them as is good in your eyes" Then there is his wife turned into salt for looking back and ultimately his daughters getting Lot drunk and having sex with him. Wow.. Gay angel rape, annihilation of whole cities, incest... Yeah this story is full of good times.

To the point of the OP yes, I am sure there were many innocent children there, but as we learn from the bible kids are just as wicked and deserving of a good smiting as anyone.

12 - Well he did this as a test, one that I would have failed miserably at after telling God to shove it and all of Heaven up his almighty a$$. I don't agree with your "More Pagan blood sacrifice" comment though. Most of the pagan religions were not into that. Christianity called for much more bloodshed than the Pagans.

13 - Well it goes to the religion being one of tyranny and control. If you can control the peoples most natural bodily functions then the rest should be a piece of cake.

14 - Yeah I never got that either. Why make people with free will if you are going to then say that those people can only use that free will to do exactly what you want.

15 - Yeah, you got 'em there. I'm surprised that more young earthers haven't come out to tell you that all the dragon myths are proof that humans and dinos were around at the same time.

16 - Yup imagine that, condemning all of mankind for Adam & Eve eating fruit when they had no knowledge at the time of right and wrong... Seems like a Holy set-up to me. Also another example of the myth of free will floating around Christianity.

17 - Ok, I don't have much to say about this one other than I think the snake was in on it with God from the get go. And before someone corrects me "It was a serpent, not a snake" I remind you to look at the dictionary. Snake is the first entry for the definition of serpent.

18 - This is just pretty much an extension of #16

19 - Yeah, and there many more instances in the bible that shows equality among humans isn't something that God holds in very high regard.

20 - I'm gonna skip this one. No one knows who wrote that, but I think you may not be far off.

21 - Once again, women are beneath men according to the bible. One person pointed out that woman was made from man, but I would like to remind that it all depends on what version of creation you subscribe to. The first starting in Gen 1:1 states that God created man and woman together on the sixth day. In the second account starting in Gen. 2 God does in fact create Eve from Adam.

23 - Yup, God is a nasty evil effer... He does like him some warring, no wonder W is a Christian.

24 - Well I think that is because God did not send Jesus at all.

25 - I think this one goes back to your #2 but the point is a good one

Anyways, that's my two cents. The Bible is full of a lot more crap but I didn't want to get off topic, and go past the scope of your 25 points.

The obey or burn was just God mad. I speak on a context of beliving in God
I must admit that religion has created guilt has a tool. But when it comes to the spirit you are wrong. Mankind has changed and twisted the words of God. (rewritten books added/change) But the original Bible is sacred and pure. One again it doesn't make any sense to say that a force of energy gave me conciousness. Let's say God is a multi Concious universe. Wouldn't the greatest blessing be conciousness. It's a rarity in the universe and should noted for it. Forget the oppersion of science for a minute. Don't whine.


I've read much of all the info. A few things I must say.

WHy am I on your foe list. what you say makes sense. Complete sense. For a person whom experianced what you went through. So by now I'm not going to challenge your ideas because right now you seem to have a valid point. It's just funny how you left religion.. excuse me. spirituality. yes I dislike relgion too. I dislike it very much. but the spiritual side is greater.

If you left God it's up to you. but perhaps he never answered you because he knew you would sway to mans mind. just an idea. then again you don't believe in God.
[edit on 3-12-2009 by Jordan River]

[edit on 3-12-2009 by Jordan River]