Twenty-Five Reasons to Doubt

reply to post by oliveoil


There is no such thing as a merciful way to kill a child and even if there were if it were done by a flawed human it would still be deemed sick and evil, so why the double standard. Why does God get to enjoy wanton destruction of his own creation and still be labeled the good guy?

Heaven is a confusing concept in the Bible, as is Hell because later on they are confused with the New City in Revelation and with the Lake of Fire. The Bible is not clear on any of that especially when it makes mention of other places like gehenna, sheoul, the pit, and hades. There is nothing in the Passover account that says "they all died mercifully and were soon in Heaven where God explained to them why he had to cut their lives short"...

You say Jericho preformed child sacrifice, maybe you should reread the Bible. God likes child sacrifice and even tried to get Abraham to kill his son on an altar. I don't care how evil the grown men and women were in the city that's no reason to slaughter the kids too.

The virgin slaves taken were likely sex slaves, otherwise why should they care whether they were virgin? Job being restored does not excuse the trauma he was put through. It is never established that all Sodom and Gommorah's citizens were gay nor is it clear that homosexuality is a sin. No matter how sexual depraved the parents it does not excuse the deaths of children.

Animals and not dinosaurs, funny, because the Bible deals individually with a lot of animals. There's talk of owls, calfs, donkey's, fish, etc. Young Earth Creationism doesn't work, case closed.

Man greater than woman is sexist and stupid.

23) So what you are saying, in an attempt to debunk my point, is that God condones the killing of anyone who does not worship him. What a nice, tolerant and merciful guy

Why does God need a new covenant if he states the one with Abraham will last forever?

The elect will be saved? Well then what's the point of Evangelizing? If only those God has preordained to be saved will be saved than there is no free will and we actually have no choice in our soul's fate. Sorry, can't have it both ways.

I'd have retorted a little more in depth but I'm pressed for time.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I had a few questions of my own: www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


I really don't find the point in arguing why god does what he does.

I have explained to you all 25 of your questions to the best of my knowledge.

It seems that you do not really care about what god does and why. You have tunnel vision and just want to see what you want to see. And all you want to see is doubt.

I think the goal of your post is to convince people to agree with your logic and not biblical logic.

God bless you sir.

This is the ultimate compilation of reasons why not to believe in the biggest lie mankind ever created for itself. Thank you! S&F for you.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


You're all over the place here. You make some valid points in which I totally agree with you, but then you go off on a tangent and say things that just aren't true.

You seem to have a problem with people dying, as if it is somehow unjust.

People die. They die all the time. None of those people would still be alive today.

Good people die every single day. So do bad people. You can blame God all you want, but that wont help you understand the reason for it.

So I don't understand what the problem is with death. It is the last enemy to be destroyed. Yes, death sucks. I hate it as much as anyone. I know some good people that aren't here anymore and the world is a worse place without them, but it still happens.

www.rationalchristianity.net... shows how "slavery" was used in the OT. It's not the same thing as what happened in the US. You evidently think "slave" and you think of people with welts all over their backs, and it wasn't that way.

reply to post by PSUSA


I've got no problem with accidental death or natural death, merely the idea that God was going around killing people. Doesn't that bother anyone, the idea that God can't follow his own commandment not to kill? I'm saying there is a massive discrepancy between the merciful and loving being we see in certain scriptures and the vengeful killer we see in others...

Death is natural, but bloodshed in the name of God is not.

And yes I go off on tangents, can't help it, my mind forms of web of related ideas and I follow the strands.

I don't get the whole Egypt Exodus story.

At several points Pharaoh agreed to let the Israelites go.
But then GOD hardened his heart.

Sounds to me like this god fella is playing cat and mouse with pharaoh.

And someone said that if the word ends with "ite" they are evil.
hmmm....Israel ITES?

And someone else mentioned that Yahweh was and E.T.
He did use some advanced technology...such as flying vehicles.

"The word "heaven" or "heavens" is translated from Hebrew and Greek words that mean "the sky", or directly related to the sky, in 99.7%, or all but 2, of the 730 times it appears, in both the Old and New Testaments. The vehicles described in the Bible are flying in the sky. "

God the Aviator

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

I've got no problem with accidental death or natural death, merely the idea that God was going around killing people. Doesn't that bother anyone, the idea that God can't follow his own commandment not to kill? I'm saying there is a massive discrepancy between the merciful and loving being we see in certain scriptures and the vengeful killer we see in others...

Death is natural, but bloodshed in the name of God is not.

I suppose it depends on how you see God, and why we're here. But I am undecided on how much of what the OT says regarding these wars is divinely inspired or just an excuse. The same things are happening today with people doing all sorts of sick things in Gods' name. In fact, I think it's worse now than it's ever been.

To me, death is death. The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. Where the Christian and the atheist part ways is that we believe death is not The End. Nowhere does it say that the dead are in heaven or "hell", it says they are dead. Simple, huh? Unless you have a doctorate in theology, that is...

We hope in the resurrection.

Luke 13:1-5
1 Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. 2 Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them--do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

There's the answer, for those that take scripture seriously. Those people were "innocent" too.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

Flaw 1: God is supposedly loving and merciful, yet sees fit that every first born CHILD of Egypt is to be mercilessly killed, this punishment is said to befall all who do not spread the blood on their doors, this would include innocents (who are, I remind you CHILDREN). Rather than punishing Pharaoh for his sin God punishes the most innocent of Egyptian people.

Your first task here is to define and give examples of "Gods love and mercy". Since you're making the claim that His acts contradict what you deem "love and mercy" you must show how your "love and mercy" are greater.

In other words, you know "love" and "mercy" because God has allowed you to know them. If you then hold that you have greater love, mercy and compassion you must demonstrate that but how can you do such if your love is not Holy?

If you claim that your love is not greater nor your mercy then how is it you can judge God? Are you a hypocrite?

Secondly, what defines "innocent" to you? What defines innocent to God? Since you stand and judge God as being wrong for His actions you must show how God has violated His definition of "innocence" (as well as mercy, love and compassion)

Lastly, where are your accolades for God when He does show mercy, love and compassion? Or do you only wish to look to the negative and seek to point out flaws then damn those who you deem to be wrong?

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


Everyone knows and is taught that God is merciful when they are brought into the religion. They are taught Jesus is a forgiving and wonderful person as is God. The Psalms are filled with praises of God's goodness and mercy. I don't have to give specific examples, anyone with an internet connection dig up verses about God's love. For the sake of argument though look at Hebrews 13:5 in which God says he will never leave your or forsake you.

I am no attempting to judge God, that is the argument of someone who believes the Bible is God or is the word of God. I am merely pointing out a flaw in our perception of God as it is laid out in the Bible. My anger is not at God because how can it be? I have never spoken to God, met God or heard from God outside of what I was indoctrinated to believe about him as a child. That is the whole point of this thread, to prove using logic and reason that the Bible is the work of imperfect men and is therefore imperfect.

I am not judging God as being wrong in his actions, I am saying God never did any of those things and that human beings made them up, there is no proof that any of those things were done by God outside the hollow claims of those who cling to the Bible as absolute. What is innocent to me? Children are innocent, I don't believe the idea we are born into sin, that is just a tool to get people to feel guilty for simple human nature in order to control them easier.

Again you seem to believe I have an issue with God, no I merely have issue with the religion and Bible that man has created.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

 

Everyone knows and is taught that God is merciful when they are brought into the religion. They are taught Jesus is a forgiving and wonderful person as is God. The Psalms are filled with praises of God's goodness and mercy. I don't have to give specific examples, anyone with an internet connection dig up verses about God's love. For the sake of argument though look at Hebrews 13:5 in which God says he will never leave your or forsake you.

I am no attempting to judge God, that is the argument of someone who believes the Bible is God or is the word of God. I am merely pointing out a flaw in our perception of God as it is laid out in the Bible. My anger is not at God because how can it be? I have never spoken to God, met God or heard from God outside of what I was indoctrinated to believe about him as a child. That is the whole point of this thread, to prove using logic and reason that the Bible is the work of imperfect men and is therefore imperfect.

I am not judging God as being wrong in his actions, I am saying God never did any of those things and that human beings made them up, there is no proof that any of those things were done by God outside the hollow claims of those who cling to the Bible as absolute. What is innocent to me? Children are innocent, I don't believe the idea we are born into sin, that is just a tool to get people to feel guilty for simple human nature in order to control them easier.

Again you seem to believe I have an issue with God, no I merely have issue with the religion and Bible that man has created.

1) Who is Hebrews directed to? Believers or non-believers? Why you seek to claim the Bible is erroneous then quote from it to prove a point I have no idea.

2) Because you claim the Bible is made up by men and nothing in there is of God YOU now have become an authority of what is and is not true.

3) It would be best stated by you, "It is my opinion that the God found in the Bible is incorrect".

4) From a human, finite perspective we see innocence in things and people. From God who is Holy (free from sin and perfect) there is nothing "innocent", not even children. Now you and I may not fully grasp or understand that but then again we are finite, limited.

If you draw a line how do you know it's straight? Well maybe because you have a level for which to place against your line to make sure it is straight. By doing this you remove all doubt, you have measured it against that which is straight. You claim to know what innocence means yet this is only in your finite limited knowledge.

I do not expect you though to grasp this because you do not hold to "sin".

Lastly, your arguing is illogical. You claim to not know God yet all those things you have read about Him MUST be wrong. How do you know this though if you do not know God? They are wrong to you because they do not agree with what and how you perceive God to be. In other words you have come to God with a preconceived notion or idea of what God OUGHT to be like and are now seeking evidences to support that.

If you disagree then ask yourself how is it, seeing as you do not know God, you know so much about what He is NOT like?

God exists, and DO NOT BASH HIM, for your time will come! God is of Alien decent, I met him during an abduction in 2000. He is dark grey and looks kinda like a frogman, with what appeared to be scales. God has his own battles. There are billions of people on Earth, God can help each one of us, that is just arragance asking him that. He gave us life, respect him!

One last note, we are all given OUR own life, it is how we decide to use it. Now Im speaking on specualtion I dont have proof on this stuff here. I think God lets us live the way we want, after all that is what be granted a life is all about...freedom, a abiltiy to make your own decisions. I can say God is very cool, he isnt scary like people think. But the last thing I heard during my abduction was, he has to go, he cant stay in this area.

I would not make lies and go to hell. Especially on a message board, I wouldnt be that dumb. So if I am here trying to tell you this, then you should take it serious. God is cool, God is alive!

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


1) According to Christians the Bible is directed to and should be read by everyone, if it was only for believers no one would ever convert. I quote from it to prove it contradicts itself and show it is imperfect.

2) I have shown using logic that the book isn't perfect and history shows it was written by men so the truth is obvious to any looking at the facts. Would you prefer I stopped using the logic and reason bestowed upon me (whether by God or some other process) and merely blindly buy into a book I've shown to be flawed?

3) You are correct sir, I would label the God in the Bible as an invention of man, that is not to say there is no higher power or God merely that the Bible, man's best guess at such a deity, is flawed and shows an inconsistent and fluctuating perception of God.

4) You claim God does not see children as innocent? Care to prove that? The Bible sure makes it look like he doesn't think anyone is innocent. I've yet to hear God vouch for the Bible but I hear lots of people calling it his word simply because it claims to be.

Edit to Add: Jesus seems to take a liking to children in the New Testament, are we to believe Jesus, just like his father, sees no innocence in them or wouldn't have a problem killing them if they were Egyptian?

You're right I don't know God, I know only what has been written about him by man and I don't believe a word of it. If the Bible were true and that God of the Old Testament who loved to kill, damn, etc were real I'd be screwed but I have my doubts, and if doubting and questioning what I'm told gets me damned than so be it at least I'm not a blind sheep being spoon-fed.

[edit on 4-11-2009 by Titen-Sxull]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

 

1) According to Christians the Bible is directed to and should be read by everyone, if it was only for believers no one would ever convert. I quote from it to prove it contradicts itself and show it is imperfect.

2) I have shown using logic that the book isn't perfect and history shows it was written by men so the truth is obvious to any looking at the facts. Would you prefer I stopped using the logic and reason bestowed upon me (whether by God or some other process) and merely blindly buy into a book I've shown to be flawed?

3) You are correct sir, I would label the God in the Bible as an invention of man, that is not to say there is no higher power or God merely that the Bible, man's best guess at such a deity, is flawed and shows an inconsistent and fluctuating perception of God.

4) You claim God does not see children as innocent? Care to prove that? The Bible sure makes it look like he doesn't think anyone is innocent. I've yet to hear God vouch for the Bible but I hear lots of people calling it his word simply because it claims to be.

Edit to Add: Jesus seems to take a liking to children in the New Testament, are we to believe Jesus, just like his father, sees no innocence in them or wouldn't have a problem killing them if they were Egyptian?

You're right I don't know God, I know only what has been written about him by man and I don't believe a word of it. If the Bible were true and that God of the Old Testament who loved to kill, damn, etc were real I'd be screwed but I have my doubts, and if doubting and questioning what I'm told gets me damned than so be it at least I'm not a blind sheep being spoon-fed.

[edit on 4-11-2009 by Titen-Sxull]

I shall reply in order.

1) Again, the Scriptures are written to and for those whom are the elected. This does not mean that many non-believers cannot read it nor does it mean that many non-believers cannot gain knowledge from it. People are NOT converted because they read the Scriptures but rather because God has called them to salvation.

What is it about that that you cannot seem to grasp? God calls and saves those whom He has chosen, no preacher or evangelist has ever nor could ever save anyone. They are only messengers of the gospel, they plant the seeds but the Lord waters those seeds as He desires.

2) You have not shown it to be flawed, especially not by using logic and reason. Of course it was written by men.

3) Please create for me a God greater than the one revealed in Scripture. It should be an easy thing for one such as yourself who has already proven Him false.

4) Again, I asked you to define "innocent" by Gods terms. Who is "innocent" in His eyes? Sure children may be innocent based on our view but again we are not Holy and Righteous. We are unholy and self-righteous. It comes down to God created us and He can damn everyone of us and there is nothing you can do about it. You can't change it, you can't fight it and no amount of temper tantrums will change it. If God seeks to curse you and take your life who are you to not go along with it? Perhaps we are mere puppets and He is the Puppet Master......you may not like it but then again God doesn't have to ask your permission.

Now place yourself as Pharaoh. What would you do? Before you reply remember that the people saw you as a god. So when some slave comes to you and demands that his people be let go what would you do?

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


If God only saves who he decides to save than we have no free will and he is the one purposely damning people to Hell. It cannot be both our choice and predetermined. So if God decides not to call an individual that individual should not be held responsible for having never been saved. Case closed.

If it is written by men it is flawed, no matter what, especially when you consider translation errors, logical inconsistencies and the sheer number of authors (each likely having an agenda).

I do not have to create a God for you and would not know how. I am a human being, to create a perfect God, or even explain a perfect being in a book, would be impossible and the result would be mere fiction just like the Bible.

Innocence in my eyes is not knowing better, like a child who uses a bad word before they've learned it was bad, they cannot be held responsible for their actions. Perhaps God sees innocence differently, but I would assume his Righteousness would make him view children as MORE innocent than we do as goodness, righteousness and mercy exist in man I would expect them to be multiplied greatly in Holy creator.

If God is the puppet master he is a tyrant, a sickened pretender who believes himself Holy when he is anything but, however it is all the more likely that those verses which paint him as a vengeful twisted murderer are fiction and are to be thrown out. Which is more likely? That a God of mercy is also the kind of guy who enjoys raining down agony on Earth, or that its all made up?

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Your missing the whole point of why God did what he did.

Yes, killing innocent children or anyone for that matter is just wrong, But Pharaoh was the only one who could have stopped it. He was warned.10 times.

It was justified because Pharaoh learned to fear God. And Gods people were set free.

Gods people have never forgot that these innocent first born were sacrificed for them. And they are in heaven.

Gods plan worked because were all here thousands of years later hanging out in chat rooms discussing it.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

 

If God only saves who he decides to save than we have no free will and he is the one purposely damning people to Hell. It cannot be both our choice and predetermined. So if God decides not to call an individual that individual should not be held responsible for having never been saved. Case closed.

If it is written by men it is flawed, no matter what, especially when you consider translation errors, logical inconsistencies and the sheer number of authors (each likely having an agenda).

I do not have to create a God for you and would not know how. I am a human being, to create a perfect God, or even explain a perfect being in a book, would be impossible and the result would be mere fiction just like the Bible.

Innocence in my eyes is not knowing better, like a child who uses a bad word before they've learned it was bad, they cannot be held responsible for their actions. Perhaps God sees innocence differently, but I would assume his Righteousness would make him view children as MORE innocent than we do as goodness, righteousness and mercy exist in man I would expect them to be multiplied greatly in Holy creator.

If God is the puppet master he is a tyrant, a sickened pretender who believes himself Holy when he is anything but, however it is all the more likely that those verses which paint him as a vengeful twisted murderer are fiction and are to be thrown out. Which is more likely? That a God of mercy is also the kind of guy who enjoys raining down agony on Earth, or that its all made up?

My apologies for not replying sooner. Life gets in the way many times of my fun activities.

In reply to "free will". Where does the Scriptures state or declare that we have "free will"? It doesn't.

Rather "free will" is alluded to but it's never stated clearly that man, which is Gods creation, has free will to do as he so pleases.

In regards to "God damning to hell" those whom He desires? Yeah and?

Let me place before you 2 possible "IF's".

1) IF we have free will then where you spend eternity is basically left up to you. IF the gospel must be presented to you and your eternity is based on whether you accept pr reject it then here it is. You have and now know the gospel of salvation. Believe in Christ Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

2) IF we have no free will but our eternity was predestined for us before the foundations of the earth were laid down by God our creator than you have no idea where you will spend it because it's not your choice. You can whine all about it, shake your fists at God and curse Him but if this scenario is true then God predestined you to be that fist shaking whiner and there ain't a darn thing you can do about it.

You stated:

Innocence in my eyes is not knowing better, like a child who uses a bad word before they've learned it was bad, they cannot be held responsible for their actions.

First, your above description goes against morals for those "bad words" may not be so bad to some.

Secondly, the example given by you does not speak of sin against a Holy and Righteous God.

Third and last, by your above description you then are no longer "innocent" in Gods eyes for you now know the gospel. Stop blaming God for your own choices and rejection of Him. If you end up in eternal separation from Him you are then responsible for that.

You stated:

If God is the puppet master he is a tyrant, a sickened pretender who believes himself Holy when he is anything but, however it is all the more likely that those verses which paint him as a vengeful twisted murderer are fiction and are to be thrown out. Which is more likely? That a God of mercy is also the kind of guy who enjoys raining down agony on Earth, or that its all made up?

I appreciate your sincere feelings here. I also understand where you're coming from. You have though spoken or stated these things based on emotions and feelings and not rational thought. God is a God of Mercy but what you can't grasp is that His Mercy is a HOLY Mercy. His Love is a HOLY Love. They, and all of His attributes are perfect. If not He then would not be God. So to you and I and our unholy and unrighteous minds we look at "innocence, mercy and love" through those lenses. We are imperfect and so are our attributes.

Deep thinking or thoughts on this subject must include a scenario involving a line of reasoning such as, "If I had the ability to save or damn what criteria would I use?"

Would all people be saved and allowed to enter into your/my heaven? I personally have met people I would never save because they were total jerks. Heck many times in traffic if I had laser beams I would of incinerated countless stupid drivers but what if to them I am the "stupid driver" and likewise if they had had laser beams I would of been their target? All of my "friends" though would be saved. Not that they deserved it but because they are my friends. Like I stated, we are selfish people.

So again I appreciate your replies.

To start with, Pharoh of Egypt ordered the killing of all firstborn males, Exodus 1:8-22 but Moses was spared, Hebrews 11:23.

God, it is said, sees all things. Before God kills anyone there is always a warning and a way out. Many of the first born in Egypt may have been adults, some may have been children. However, God can forsee the people they would grow up to be, the difference between God and men is he can bring the dead back be means of a resurrection.
Exodus 12:37 and 38 states that a vast mixed company (of non Israelites) left Egypt along with Israel. They observed the Passover and were spared.

Abraham was faithful to God. God promised Abraham that He would make his son Isaac a mighty nation. God then tested Abraham, asking him to offer up his son Isaac. Hebrews 11: 17-19 gives Abrahams mindset. He believed God would bring Isaac back from the dead if Isaac was sacrificed. According to the Bible, God, unlike Abraham, allowed his firstborn son to die as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind.

Sodom and Gomorah. Abraham was allowed to bargain with God. If even 10 good men were found, the cities would have been spared, Genesis 18:20-33.

Canaanites. Some were spared Gods judgement. In Jericho, Rahab the harlot and her whole family were spared, Joshua 2:1-24 and chapter 6:17 and 25, she also became an ancestor of Jesus Christ. The Gibeonites were spared as a people by Joshua 9:3-10:14.

The story in Jonah chapter 3 and 4 gives an account of Gods mercy toward Nineveh an Assyrian city.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19 gives Gods mindset on the treatment of widows, fatherless boys and alien residents.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


If God is real and chooses to damn me to hell, than so be it, I can only do my best to try to find and understand Him and to the best of my knowledge the Bible and the religion surrounding it are flawed so I have given up any attempt to find God within them.

God is a God of Mercy but what you can't grasp is that His Mercy is a HOLY Mercy. His Love is a HOLY Love. They, and all of His attributes are perfect. If not He then would not be God. So to you and I and our unholy and unrighteous minds we look at "innocence, mercy and love" through those lenses. We are imperfect and so are our attributes.

Yes we are imperfect, this proves my point about religion, everything we humans touch is tainted. That being said even if God's holiness is far above my own is it wrong to expect a Holy being to be more merciful then a sinner like me? If God wants to set an example why do the writers of the Bible have him doing all those horrific and evil things? I at least would expect him to follow his own commandments and yet the Old Testament makes clear that he can't even do that. There isn't a human being in the world I would wish into damnation for an eternity, Hitler perhaps. And the worst part of all is that they are not damned for their deeds but instead damned for not believing in some guy who lived 2000 years ago that there is no evidence for. There are too many flaws in the Bible and in the religion itself, God may well be blameless as you state, but the stories about him paint him as anything but. It just doesn't make one lick of sense in my mind that God would choose one divided messed up religion, choose one majorly flawed book, send one son, and force you to believe it all without evidence, and then damn you if you don't. Sorry but that creates a little too much Cognitive Dissonance for my taste. I end with some quotes:

Galileo: “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”

and Bill Hicks:

"eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love."