Twenty-Five Reasons to Doubt

reply to post by randyvs

Man brother why so harsh and condecending. That's not even called for at all.

Yes it is, reason being, we turn the cheek everyday. Everyone loves anything that doesn't have to do with God. If you say I believe in God/Jesus your a nut job, or 50+ posts come up bashing you. I just cant take it any more. This sheep just took out his hammer. As a Christian I can't keep sitting by while fakes, and wannabees post outlandish things. If you don't know what your talking about don't post about it. It's simple really. If people where not lazy and just took 10 to 20 mins of their time, they could make a post that has some facts, instead BS.

Off topic

[edit on 3-11-2009 by dthwraith]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Yes Randy, Moses did warn Pharaoh a great number of times but does that suddenly justify a "Loving" forgiving and merciful deity to become a child murderer? I think not. Seems another instance of cognitive dissonance working itself out through justification. People don't want to come to the conclusion that the God being dealt with in the Old Testament is a mean angry wrathful child murdering psycho and so they go "Well the Pharaoh could have just stopped the whole thing, it was his fault

Ok but that's not all it says about God and how he is. You can't leave out
jealous and judging and wrathful righteous and just.

Yes it is, reason being, we turn the cheek everyday. Everyone loves anything that doesn't have to do with God. If you say I believe in God/Jesus your a nut job, or 50+ posts come up bashing you. I just cant take it any more. This sheep just took out his hammer. As a Christian I can't keep sitting by while fakes, and wannabees post outlandish things. If you don't know what your talking about don't post about it. It's simple really. If people where not lazy and just took 10 to 20 mins of their time, they could make a post that has some facts, instead BS

Noway guy you accept all of that and know what you are up against when
you become a Christian. Jesus himself said We will be pursacuted for our faith in him and to expect no less.

You are way off topic so what now.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by randyvs]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

But see that's the thing, why does it disgust you to see people believing differently?

Well it doesn't. Can't have free will if you can't believe in what you want. But if your going to make statements about God, better use some scripture to back it up.

Originally posted by randyvs

Maybe he needs to go buy some chocolate.

Someday he`ll realize that not all people with other opinions than him are satanically-motivated. Chocolate may help to alter brain-chemistry accordingly.

reply to post by randyvs


I know, I know, that's my whole point. A God who is, later on in the Bible, equated with Love. A God who is never supposed to forsake you and who is meant to be willing to forgive you does not fit for a second with the wrathful blood hungry Old Testament deity.

It just doesn't go together. Wrathful and merciful, patient and yet jealous, wait a minute here doesn't this guy sound like the other deities of the Middle East back then? The more you look at it the more flawed the God of the Old Testament becomes until he's completely out of character from what you learned God was in Sunday School (supposing you went). The God of the Bible sounds more than a little mentally unstable...

When I was a Christian it didn't seem a contradiction but during my late teens when my brain actually clicked on it suddenly became abundantly clear. Just look at the book of Revelation, it makes the plagues of Egypt look childish and the Great Flood look merciful, its horrific that so many foolish people blindly believe that a loving God could not only condone such suffering but to actual perpetrate much of it.

We're not talking about passive "little kid dies of cancer" type stuff, we're talking God going around willfully killing people who are innocent. The Pharaoh was the guilty one, so why does God punish the children? It just doesn't add up.

reply to post by Skyfloating

Someday he`ll realize that not all people with other opinions than him are satanically-motivated. Chocolate may help to alter brain-chemistry accordingly.

You can have your opinion, now back it up. Get your bible and pull out the scripture that backs your claim up. Maybe I'm the one who has the wrong view, so correct me please.


mod edit: quote clarity

[edit on 3/11/2009 by ArMaP]

reply to post by Skyfloating

Someday he`ll realize that not all people with other opinions than him are satanically-motivated.

Never said that, your a MOD you know better to put words in people mouths.

Man I'm really hijacking this thread, I'm done unless boy wonder here finds some scripture to back his claim up.

It just doesn't go together. Wrathful and merciful, patient and yet jealous, wait a minute here doesn't this guy sound like the other deities of the Middle East back then? The more you look at it the more flawed the God of the Old Testament becomes until he's completely out of character from what you learned God was in Sunday School (supposing you went). The God of the Bible sounds more than a little mentally unstable

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Well you see there is one thing you have to be with God in my experience.
I never struggled with any of this or any other questions like this, for to long. See these points you make, arn't even points for me and there is a reason for that. Understanding. I feel that I totally understand everything he has done in the Bible or not.
The only way I can achieve that level of understandig is to put my self in his shoes.
Did you know for instance that when Satan rebelled it broke Gods heart?
Also when he had to destroy man from the face of the Earth.
It grieved him at his heart and he did lament.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by randyvs]

Originally posted by dthwraith
Never said that, your a MOD you know better to put words in people mouths.

Man I'm really hijacking this thread, I'm done unless boy wonder here finds some scripture to back his claim up.

The New Testament contains passages of love, kindness, encouragement and strength.

The "God" of the Old Testament however, is not displayed as "The Supreme Being", Creator, Source of the Universe. He`s a thouroughly demonic mass-murderer, as evidenced by hundreds of pieces of scripture of which these are only a few:

‘You shall annihilate them - Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, Jebusites – as Yahweh your God commanded you.’

– Deuteronomy 20.11,18.



"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves."

Numbers 31.17,18

‘The Lord is a man of war; the Lord is his name.’ – Exodus 15.3

reply to post by randyvs


Satan is an interesting point to bring up because the Satan issue is at the heart of another logical inconsistency in the story.

In order for Satan to be the origin of Sin then God must also have evil within him. This idea of evil appearing from nowhere is an absurd one, the idea that God created a perfect being who turned out to be evil either means God is not perfectly good or that the story is made up for the consumption of those who will believe anything no matter how little sense it makes.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in a higher power or "God", I just don't believe a word of the Bible because the closer you look at what you're told in Church and spoon-fed from the Bible the less sense it makes.

If God is all knowing, and knows the future, he would have been heart broken from the start Randy.

reply to post by Skyfloating

You shall annihilate them - Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, Jebusites – as Yahweh your God commanded you.’

All corrupt blood lines.
"There were giants in those days and after that also".
If it ends in ites it is a corrupt bloodline.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by randyvs]

reply to post by randyvs


*sigh*...whoever it was or wasnt, the Old Testament has a very different "vibe" from the New Testament...at least thats the way it appears to me.

[edit on 3-11-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

If God is all knowing, and knows the future, he would have been heart broken from the start Randy.

Well there is one thing for sure these retort respond conversations never
go any where. I will always have a counterpoint to the point your counter point pointed out. To the point we both just agree to fall asleep and never see the others point. There is a point you either come to it or you don't,
I'm talking about the point where you realise how puny you are compared to anything that could possibly be God and you just stop asking questions

I believe in a higher power or "God",

If you believe in a higher power "God" would he not try to communicate with you?

[edit on 3-11-2009 by randyvs]

sigh*...whoever it was or wasnt, the Old Testament has a very different "vibe" from the New Testament...at least thats the way it appears to me.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Of course no arguement there.

reply to post by randyvs


What manuscript is the source of your "scripture"? Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus or the Koine Text? Big difference there.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Im an atheist and to me u'r being just as stupid and moronic as any other religious nut. No evidence to back up what you believe. Sick people.

I'll try and answer a few of these.

Flaw 1: God is supposedly loving and merciful, yet sees fit that every first born CHILD of Egypt is to be mercilessly killed, this punishment is said to befall all who do not spread the blood on their doors, this would include innocents (who are, I remind you CHILDREN). Rather than punishing Pharaoh for his sin God punishes the most innocent of Egyptian people.

Would those people still be alive today? Everyone dies. And no one is innocent.
The History Channel did a good special on this. Usually when the HC or some other MSM does a story on the Bible, it's crap. Not this time.

THC showed how there was a natural progression to these plagues.

Flaw 2: All Loving merciful God sees fit to damn people to an ETERNAL pit of fiery torment. God offers absurd choice “Either serve me or burn forever” and then remains utterly silent and says nothing causing men and women to end up serving a morally bankrupt Church Doctrine.

You're right. You have discovered the incongruity of church doctrines with what the Bible teaches.
Their "god" is a hypocrite. That is a horrifyingly inadequate understatement.

Flaw 3: God commands the Hebrews to slaughter every living thing in Jericho, I assume there were children living there also.

That is a safe assumption.

Flaw 4: and 4.1 Slaves are taken in several cities as the Israelites make their way to the "promised land". We are to believe God condones slavery?

Yes. But research the difference between that kind of slavery and the more recent kind. Also, scriptures teach them how their slaves are to be treated.

You make some very good points in some of your "flaws" you list. But they aren't biblical flaws, they are teaching flaws.

S&F, btw.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

This, I believe, would be the mainstream, fundamental explanation:
The goal of Biblical Christianity is reuniting with God in Heaven. "Original Sin", committed by Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, separated them (and their progeny) from God. They had been given free will, as is everyone, to make whatever decisions they wanted. They made one that caused them to have to leave the perfection of the Garden AND God's presence. Once they 'sinned' they were no longer 'perfect'. Jesus' sacrifice of his 'sinless self' on the cross to atone for the sins of every 'accountable' human was the bridge back to perfection and being able to be with God in Heaven upon death. "Accountability" means understanding sin and being responsible for your knowledgeable actions of "sinning". This specific 'age of accountability' may vary..........
Anyway, killing the firstborn of Egypt in terms of "evil", would be the perception of suffering by the people who loved them, however, the souls of the children would be reunited with God in Heaven since they were not "accountable" for any sin, and THAT would be the most fantastic thing that could happen to anyone who believes in Biblical Christianity.......
In conclusion; looking at the Bible and God from the perception of "man's" wisdom is inadequate because the standard there is set by God and often transcends the 'limited understanding' of men. So judging God from the perspective of a human is fundamentally flawed.

That being said, I expect flames and personal attacks to follow. I hesitated to post here because this type of discussion almost always turns bad...... Having studied comparative religion and religious apologetics for many years, I just felt I could provide an (hopefully rational) answer from the 'fundamental Christian' perspective, as I understand it from my studies, for your consideration, Titen-Sxull (BTW.... that's one seriously creepy avatar.... it's like a cross between Marilyn Manson's Dad and Dr. Frank-n-furter...... no offense)

*Disclaimer and Warning: The views of certain persons are not shared by certain other persons and those having even identical educational and personal experiences will often reach different conclusions about most everything, and sometimes try to verbally embowel the opposition. Symptoms may include screaming, spitting, pounding on the keyboard and typing in angry strokes. In these instances, please take a deep breath and think how boring life would be if everyone agreed with you........*

P.S. I DO have to admit, I've never heard of the Old Testament Extraterrestrial Deity Hijack postulate, so maybe I need to get some more education!?!?!

reply to post by Titen-Sxull
#1
Pharaohs punishment was the ten plagues for not letting G-ds people go. The last being the Passover where the first born in each family, human and livestock died. This is true. Innocent children did die, but were these innocent children killed mercilessly. No.

In order to understand why these innocent children died, you must first understand what happens to children when they die.

According to the bible one can interpret it three ways.

1) Only elect go to heaven which means their fate was already predetermined. (Eph 1:4),( Rom 8:29)

2) Only those who would have believed go to heaven. G-d knows the end from the beginning and the potential as well as the actual.(Ish46:10)

3) All Innocents go to Heaven. These would be those who are not yet morally accountable.(Ish 7:16)

So the question that should be asked is do innocent children go to heaven when they die. And I believe the answer to be yes.

In the case with Pharaoh I believe that G-d took back what was rightfully his.He also taught Pharaoh a valuable lesson, and the Israelites were set free.


#2) God gives us free will in hopes we will chose him. The Bible helps us make this choice.
Seeing through the churches hypocrisy makes G-ds voice stronger than ever. Nowhere in the Bible does it say you should serve a organization

#3) The people of Jerico had over 400 years to repent for their wickedness (Gen15:16) They did not.

These people were cancerously immoral,defiled with every kind of abomination including child sacrifice. they were far from innocent. As far as the children go, You could say that G-d had mercy on them by taking them from such a unholy envirement. Remember that the Isralities did not do this on ther own accord.This was a direct command from G-d.

It was necessary to exterminate any trace of the city. If anyone remained they would have been a threat to pure worship of G-d being they did not believe.

#4)These slaves were like family.Definitely not what the Egyptians defined slave as.

#5) Ive already explaind innocent children diying. Job was restored after passing the test.
#6) The date of Noahs flood has not been determind. Prehaps the Epic confirms that thier was a
#7) The Bible says that Noah and his lineage lived long lives.It also said that from that time on that mans days shall be an hundred and twenty years.(gen6:3) Show me a man that has lived longer?
#8) G-d is worried that mans knowlage had increased.They all spoke one language and were able to communicate to build such a tower.Nothing would be restrained from them which they have amagine to do. They were thinking of themselfs and not G-d.So G-d scrambled thier language and humbled them.

#9) There is three critera for determining what books were to be included or excluded from the Canon of the NT.

1) The Books must have apostolic authority.
2) The document had to be congruent with the basic Christion tradition that the church recognized as normative
3) The documents had to continuously been exceptive and used by the church at large.

10)These commands were intended for Israel.

11) They were homosexual. Homosexuality is conciderd a sin in the Bible.

12) God did not plan that Abraham should actually kill Isaac. (Gen 22:12) He was testing Abrahams faith.

13)God wants us to multiply and have children.Does one strictly take a wife for fornication?

14)You are created in the image of G-d.He gives you free will.And when you screw up he always gives you chances to realize it.( he gave the Canninites 400 years)

15) Perhaps maybe they were called animals and not Dinosaurs.

16) Yes they were perfect and innocent and pure.But like a child, not all knowing.

17) He was a serpent not a snake.

18) This tree was the tree of Knowlage of good and evil, Not right and wrong
They knew not from right or wrong.Was it evil to eat from the tree.?
Not Knowing right from wrong, she did eat

19) Woman was made from man, Man is Greater than woman.

20) Your reading it wrong.

21) Through his commands G-d was teaching his people not to rape.You have to understand that people were barbaric back then. Rape was very common and was conciderd not such a big deal either for the purp or the victim.Most often the victim knew her/his assailant very well and had relations with them.

22) It was symbolic then and its still simbolic today.

23) He was not enjoying the heads that he instructed moses to hang. He was sickened by the fact that the Israelites joined in on worship of other gods. God instructed Moses to kill them.Get rid of the cancer.

24) There are six covenants in the Bible
1) the covenant with Adam
2)the covenant with Noah
3)the covenant with Abraham
4)the covenant with Moses
5)the covenant withDavid
6) the covenant with Jesus
The covenant with Jesus was a new covenant. through which G-ds law will be written on the hearts of men and women. This new covenant fulfils all the promises G-d made in the previous covenants.

Understanding the covenants is the key to understanding the bible.

25) The elect will be saved. .

In hurry sorry for spelling.