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The True Hebrew Israelites

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posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 11:53 AM
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These are some of the most extended, bizarre, and reaching extrapolations I've ever seen.

Even one versed in the basics of Abraham and the named descendants would know better.

Sela has pointed out things you seem to prefer to ignore. It's your choice of course, but this assumption is akin to taking a vision out of Revelation, out of context, and applying it to the Illuminati, or Mars.

Doesn't fit.

Yahweh seems to do well working with "remnants." In fact, it would appear Yahweh would have it no other way.

The current "remnants" survived a concerted extinction policy some seventy years ago, and as foretold, have been again gathered from the nations to their land never again to leave. To be a nation in one day.

Who could have guessed it would occur just like that?

I don't know if you're wanting to be Jewish, participate in the promise, you feel left out and are desperate to be recognized, but it's really not going to fly.

I'm just a blue-eyed Gentile, and I am who I am.




posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by Selahobed
 


Hi,

First of you seem to think Ham, Africans are the only blacks.
As I said before, Black Americans are not African.
The slave mastered lumped that on us early so everyone in the world think Black = African.
This is totally wrong.
You can spot the major differences between true Israelite blacks and African blacks by just looking at them, they don`t look the same.

You know how you can see the difference between a white Russian and a white German? same thing.

You do know one of the punishments of the Israelites from God is forgetting their heritage?
Having their land taken over and trampled on by impostors was also a prediction.

So far Gods prophecies in the Bible have been bang on without a miss and can be proven today with the hard evidence we have.



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by dooper

I don't know if you're wanting to be Jewish, participate in the promise, you feel left out and are desperate to be recognized, but it's really not going to fly.

I'm just a blue-eyed Gentile, and I am who I am.



Of course your a Gentile.
Your telling people what will `fly` and what will not.

Why would I feel left out?
Feel free to prove the Jews in Israel today are the real Israelites.
The usual `because I said so` will be expected.

9/11 We will never forget.

Holocaust, 6 million Jews and people still cry about it.

Slavery. Forgive and Forget? We were rather quick to forget about this one weren't we?


[edit on 2-11-2009 by buds84]



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 12:18 PM
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Buds—

You wrote : The True Hebrew Israelites

QUOTE

Who are the True Hebrew Israelites? God’s chosen people in the Bible? Most people are confused as to who the Israelites are from the Bible. The confusion is because of the conspiracy surrounding it.

These are the lost Tribes of Israel

Judah — Black Americans
Benjamin — West Indians (Caribbean)
Levi — Haitians
Simeon — Dominicans
Zebulon — Guatemalans, Panamanians
Ephraim — Puerto Ricans
Manasseh — Cubans
Gad — Native American Indians
Reuben — Seminole Indians
Asher — Colombians, Uruguayans
Napthali — Argentines, Chileans
Issachar — Mexicans
Some Australians, Hawaiian, New Zealand and Irish slaves also.

UNQUOTE

You don’t seem to have a clue about what you are talking about:
Where in your in your fake list of 12 tribes is the tribelet of DAN? Can't seem to see it...maybe it's hiding in Guatemala somewhere?

Why did you mention the half-tribe of Manasseh and Ephraim, the sons of Joseph?

If you knew anything about the tribelets mentioned in the so-called Song of Deborah in Judges chapter 5, you would have added Gilead, Machir and Meroz and ommitted Levi, Gad, Shimeon, Manasseh and Yehudah.

You do NOT seem to have the foggiest notion of WHAT ACTUALLY IS in the more ancient portions of the Hebrew 'bible'---such as the Song of Deborah in Judges chapter 5, which you evidently cannot even read FOR YOURSELF in the PaleoHeb, like others of your ilk on your silly links/videos !

In Deuteronomy chapter 33 (which forms the latter part of the Pentateuch) the second son of Yakkov-Yisro'el (Shimeon) is missing altogether from Moses' list.

So…where exactly did ‘Moses’ hide the tribelet of poor Shimeon? Maybe he stashed it away somewhere in present day Ecuador, to judge by your totally Hebrew-unsupported list of the so-called 12 tribes which is apparently taken from the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (from c. 69CE, aka the Book of Revelation) ?
Either way, if you claim to know more than what 4,500 world wide experts on the Hebrew Scriptures know with your silly ‘African’ origin of the 12-tribes, how do you explain the MUCH MUCH MUCH EARLIER list of the tribes of Yisro’el in the Song of Deborah in Judges chapter 5 which paleo-Hebrew list omits the tribes of Judah and Shimeon and Gad etal. but includes earlier tribes such as Dan, Gilead, Machir and Meroz which YOU OMIT FROM YOUR CONFUSED LIST of 12 tribes:

You seem to be ignorant of the facts, e.g. that there existed several contradictory lists of 12 tribes in the Hebrew bible alone--

Since you (alas, falsly) claim to ‘know about the ORIGINAL’ tribes of benei Yisroel, and if you REALLY could read unpointed PaleoHeb at all (which is not evident from your jejune and grossly misinformed posts, which do violence to the ancient texts you claim to be able to cite as 'evidence' !) you could have quoted the list in Judges chapter 5's SONG OF DEBORAH, and not some random list of 12 copied from some loose English translation of the e.g. Greek text of the MUCH LATER Book of Revelation &tc.

Now try again and see if you can come up with a better list of ther 12 tribes..

And also while you're at it, explain to me (and to any other educated persons on this thread) your silly and grammatico-historically impossible 'African' etymologies for EACH of the tribal names of the Benei Yisro'el-- if you can..

I would be very curious indeed to see what you come up with...especially since the names of all the 20 or so tribelets are Syro-Canaanaite in origin (etymologicall speaking) ... with the possible exception of the priestly tribelet of Levi which may be a Hamito-Shemitic derivative...



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 12:29 PM
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reply to post by Sigismundus
 


How about YOU come up with the list of Tribes of Israel and prove that they are the true Israelites with all the so called Scholars you claim to be with.

That should make a good show.

You mad you didnt make the list?


If it`s one thing about ATS is the skeptics always demand people to hold their hand through the proof or else they sit and cry providing no evidence as usual.

Thats not how this works.

When you don`t agree with something pull out some proof or something worthy of a discussion.



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 12:50 PM
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reply to post by buds84
 

Maybe you would benefit more from study, and not clicking on bizarre videos.

How do you KNOW that Israel will be gathered again by HIS CHILDREN?

Aside from scholarship, try Jeremiah 29:14. Isaiah 11:11.

Ezekial 6:8 speaks of those who survived the sword and provide a remnant. Isaiah 66:8 describes Israel being born at once.

Ezekial 34:13 describe HIS PEOPLE being gathered from all nation.

Jeremiah 23:7-8 describes the gathering of the seed of Israel to this new nation.

Isaiah 43:1, 5-6 they're gathered again from the four corners of earth.

Amos 9:15 where they are planted again in their own land, never to be uprooted again.

You have neither secular scholarship to back up these claims, neither Biblical scholarship to back up these claims, and even the few prophecies I've mentioned, specifically state that Israel and the sons of Israel would be gathered again to their land in a manner never before seen.

BUT- you're in the right place!



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 02:13 PM
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Buds--

Why don't you give it up, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Do you think for one moment that I CANNOT read what is in the paleo Hebrew versions of the Jewish canonical scriptures?

Just to clarify things for you (since you seem a bit muddled, like your jejune video links !) technically speaking, the 12 Benei Yisro’el (sons of Isro’el / Yakkov) were:

Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Yehudah, Issachar, Zebulun,Ben-yamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher & Joseph

You SHOULD know that the Hebrew ‘bible’ does not actually list a CONSISTENT membership of the 12 tribes in a number of places: only the sacred number 12 is adhered to--the actual tribelets that MAKE UP that number OFTEN DIFFER in different books of the ‘bible’:

Did you even know that? If not, why not? Too busy listening to your childish video links so full of historical nonsense?

Here are some of the contradictory lists of 12 triblets for you to chew on---it seems very odd indeed that you did NOT know that the lists of 12 all contradict each other when you posted all your silly links..hmmm…

The LIST from the so-called Song of Deborah (Judges Chapter 5:14-18 the earliest written list of 12 ) – some of the oldest paleo- Hebrew in the Old Testament: the 12 Tribes listed in the Song of Deborah are
Ephraim, Ben-yamin, Machir, Zebulon, Issachar, Reuben, Gilead, Dan, Asher, Zebulon, Naphtali, Meroz

Here is the text of the Song of Deborah in Judges 5:14-18, 23 from which these different tribes are taken:

14 Out of Ephraim was there a root of them that came out against the benei-Amalek; after you Benjamin, among your people; out of Machir came down the governors, and out of Zebulun writers that handle the pen of the scribe 15 And princes came out of Issachar that were with Deborah and Barak the latter was sent on foot into the valley. For the divisions of Reuben there were great plans. 17 and out of Gilead they abode beyond Jordan: but why did Dan remain in their ships? Asher also continued on the sea shore, and abode in his breaches. 18 Zebulun and Naphtali were a people that endangered their own lives unto the death in the high places of the fields. 23 But damn you Meroz, said Malak-YHWH, damn you all—yea, bitterly all the inhabitants within your borders; because you did not come to the aid of YHWH !

You should be able to see at a glance that the tribal amphyctiony of Yehudah is not in the earliest list. Neither is Shimeon or Levi mentioned. But instead we have extras : Meroz, Machir & Gilead.

How does your silly pseudo-scholarship explain that?

Now take a look at the LIST in Gen 35:22-26 And the benei-Yakkov were 12 in number born to him in Padan Aram in Syria: the sons of Leah were Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Shimeon, and Levi, and Yehudah, and Issachar, and Zebulun: the sons of Rachel were; Yosef, and Ben-yamin: the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid were Dan and Naphtali: and the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid were Gad, and Asher:

This later list echoes the text of Exodus 1:2-7 but I don’t see Mannasseh in EITHER list, do you?

So ... why did YOU omit the triblet of Dan? never heard of him?

NOW comes ANOTHER list in Numbers 1:5-15; where the half-tribe of Manasseh suddenly appears among the 12 benei Yisro’el: ‘With you’ there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers. 1:5 These are the names of the 12 men that shall ‘stand with you’, one from each tribe: from the tribe of Reuben …. 1:6 of Simeon… 1:7 of Yehudah…. 1:8 of Issachar… 1:9 of Zebulun …1:10 (from two sons of Joseph) of Ephraim…and of Manasseh…1:11 of Benjamin… 1:12 of Dan…1:13 of Asher… 1:14 of Gad… 1:15 of Naphtali…

Notice LEVI is missing from the above list: why don’t you explain where Levi went (maybe got flown to Brazil in a jet?)

Yet ANOTHER list of 12 is found in 1 Chronicles chapter 2: 1-2 : here everyone should be able to see at once that the Tribe of Levi is included but Manasseh is NOT included:

Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Yehudah, Issachar, Zebulun,2 Dan, Yosef, Ben-yamin, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher

Then there is your very late clumsy Greek list which YOU used very ignorantly in your opening post’s LIST above taken from some English version of the LIST in the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite, aka the Book of Revelation chapter 7: verses 5-8 which omits both tribes of EPHRAYIM and DAN altogether but then adds LEVI and JOSEPH and MANASSEH the half-tribe.

Revelation 7:5-8. ‘of Judah … of Reuben … of Gad … of Asher … of Nephtalim … of Manasses … of Shimeon ….of Levi …of Zebulon …, of Issachar, …, of Yosef … and of Ben-yamin …’

So where does your Supposed African Hypothesis stand on all of these contradictory textual issues, pray tell?

Were you even AWARE of the contradictions in these muddled Hebrew texts?



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by buds84
 



Exactly, those scriptures are proving and supporting my point, they fit the description exactly.



Aside from scholarship, try Jeremiah 29:14. Isaiah 11:11.


Jer 29:14
And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

Ok, that fits the description of the List of Tribes I have nicely.

Isa 11:11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Ok, that fits the description of the List of Tribes I have exactly.
U.S.A can is said to be a modern day Egypt.
Freemasons = Obsessed with Egyptian crap.
They are scattered everywhere.




Ezekial 6:8 speaks of those who survived the sword and provide a remnant. Isaiah 66:8 describes Israel being born at once.


Eze 6:8 Yet will I leave a remnant, that ye may have some that shall escape the sword among the nations, when ye shall be scattered through the countries.

Exactly.

Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.



Ezekial 34:13 describe HIS PEOPLE being gathered from all nation.


Eze 34:12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
Eze 34:13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.




Jeremiah 23:7-8 describes the gathering of the seed of Israel to this new nation.


Jer 23:7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 23:8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Still supporting my point.



Isaiah 43:1, 5-6 they're gathered again from the four corners of earth.


Isa 43:1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Yes. He`s talking about what he`s going to do.



Amos 9:15 where they are planted again in their own land, never to be uprooted again.


Amo 9:14 And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them.
Amo 9:15 And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God.

Thank you for supporting my point.

Who built the ghettos and lived in them?
Who was working on the plantation?

You forgot who?
I cant tell if your trying to help support my point or not?




You have neither secular scholarship to back up these claims, neither Biblical scholarship to back up these claims, and even the few prophecies I've mentioned, specifically state that Israel and the sons of Israel would be gathered again to their land in a manner never before seen.

BUT- you're in the right place!



Thats the end of the prophesies, it hasn't happened yet obviously.

You think the Jews in Israel today are the ones from Biblical times?
Go back to grade 5 history, for now your not even on my level.

But I`ll be happy to school you on what your so called `Scholars` told you so you can try again next time.



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by Sigismundus
Buds--

Why don't you give it up, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Do you think for one moment that I CANNOT read what is in the paleo Hebrew versions of the Jewish canonical scriptures?


So where does your Supposed African Hypothesis stand on all of these contradictory textual issues, pray tell?


Like I said before Africans are not Israelites.
The rest of what your saying is garbage trying to make yourself look smart and beating around a bush.
You are one poor excuse for a `Scholar`
If your trying to prove the Jewish people in Israel today are the original Israelites you must have forgot to do your homework.

Your the one without a leg to stand on. lol.












[edit on 2-11-2009 by buds84]



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by reticledc
 


Reticledc, beautifully put -any individual or group who see themselves as 'superior' to other human beings are delusional.

Plain and simple.



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by karl 12
reply to post by reticledc
 


Reticledc, beautifully put -any individual or group who see themselves as 'superior' to other human beings are delusional.

Plain and simple.


Welcome to planet Earth, where no one has ever been equal.

The phrase "All men are created equal" is not God. Thats Thomas Jefferson. lol.

Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner.



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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reply to post by buds84
 


I don't recall a nation being made in one day anywhere there were plantations.

The only one I recall where a nation was created in one day, that pertains to the Jews, was the creation of Israel.

Now they are gathered from all nations.

Not all plantations.

Just a bit of difference.



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 04:32 PM
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Hi Buds

I don't believe I mentioned anything about the present day Israeli's various ethnicities etc. (e.g. involving the Turko Ukrainian conversions in the 8th and 9th centuries CE aka the Khazarians): they are NOT part of this discussion.

In case you've forgotten, we're discusing the ANCIENT (and more or less extinct) Israelitish amphychtionies and what Shemitic tribelets formed those groups,, i.e. the inhabitants of that part of the world that moved in and out of it prior to 1000BCE down to the Destructioin of the 2nd Temple in Palestine in CE 70.

So, get your facts straight.

And while your at it, why don't you have a go at listing 12 tribes for me, since you don't seem to be aware that there never was a consistent single set of names for the tribes in antiquity...

We're waiting (and by the way, don't waste your time posting any more of your pseudo-scientific 'historical' (!) links -- they only make you look more confused than you already are.

I've given you AT LEAST THREE DIFFERENT LISTS of 12 TRIBES from the socalled Bible.

Now go ahead, and explain WHY there are at least (3) different sets of tribes (the earliest list especially from the so called Song of Deborah) then pick the list you feel you can stick to from the pack and we'll take it from there.

But don't bother quoting (to me at least !) any more of your tired King James version translations of the OT in English (you obviously cannot handle paleo) which for the OT is nothing but an outdated hotchpoth only worked over the Masoretic text from the 10th century CE from a single MS from Leningrad...and as for the NT, the King James Version is now hopelessly outdated --and was ONLY aware of Codex Alexadrinus and the Bezae Biglot D Codex Cantabrigiensis

THe KJV was totally unaware of Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus, the Freer Codex and also knows nothing of the Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus--all of which show better readings in most places than A or D--so kindly try and speak with little useful things known as 'proven facts' for a change...!



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by buds84
Welcome to planet Earth, where no one has ever been equal.


I don't know where you live mate but I think more and more people are beginning to arrive at the conclusion that everyone is.

Maybe deep seated insecurity plays a huge role in the psychological make up of those who think everyone isn't.



Originally posted by buds84
The phrase "All men are created equal" is not God. Thats Thomas Jefferson. lol.



Well first of all which god are you talking about -the one from the abrahamic mythologies or the ones from the Roman,Greek,Nordic,Hindu,Mayan,Egyptian,Korean.. mythologies?

Theres quite a lot to choose from.

Secondly, who mentioned anything about Jefferson?
He may have been a slave owner but he makes a good point here:


“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear........Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.”



Maybe you can explain to me in a few short,easy sentences why some people are more superior than others.

Thanks.



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by buds84
 


I don't recall a nation being made in one day anywhere there were plantations.

The only one I recall where a nation was created in one day, that pertains to the Jews, was the creation of Israel.

Now they are gathered from all nations.

Not all plantations.

Just a bit of difference.


Ok I see why you been confused.

When God talks about Israel in the Bible he`s talking about the nation of people, that move around the world...not the country of Israel itself.

Just because Khazar Jewish people moved into Israel after the Israelites left doesn't mean they are the Israelites in the Bible, they must have just thought God wouldn't have noticed 700 years later that they are not the original Israelites.



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by buds84
 


That's the difference.

I don't think a God so powerful and all-knowing, would allow the wrong people to settle the nation of Israel right after going to the trouble of making the seemingly impossible happen.

No. He stated what would be, how it would be, and in the latter days. It's not done yet as the Temple hasn't been rebuilt, and Israel hasn't been severely attacked by a huge coalition of nations.

But that same God, I assure you has His pieces in place.

As we speak.

The time of the Gentiles is about up.

Didn't know what that would entail, but with all the chaos and increasing weakness, it's becoming a bit more clear.

Just as prophecied.



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by buds84
 


That's the difference.

I don't think a God so powerful and all-knowing, would allow the wrong people to settle the nation of Israel right after going to the trouble of making the seemingly impossible happen.

No. He stated what would be, how it would be, and in the latter days. It's not done yet as the Temple hasn't been rebuilt, and Israel hasn't been severely attacked by a huge coalition of nations.

But that same God, I assure you has His pieces in place.

As we speak.

The time of the Gentiles is about up.

Didn't know what that would entail, but with all the chaos and increasing weakness, it's becoming a bit more clear.

Just as prophecied.



Yes you see what I`m saying now, God said in the Bible he would let the enemies use and trample on Israel (the Kingdom / Place itself) as part of the punishment.
He punishes the Israelites like a father punishes his child.



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 04:58 PM
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nothing personal, but your gonna have to give better explanations than that.




-The real Hebrew Israelites are a group of mixed people.
-Jesus is a Black Hebrew Israelite.
-So called African Americans are not African. Africans sold them out of hiding.
-The Renaissance - "Renew or Rebirth" was the painting over of Black "Jesus" with a white Jesus A.K.A: Cesare Borgia around the world.
- 400 Years of Gods punishment is almost over.
- Before sins and punishment they were a mighty people feared by Egyptian Pharaohs and ruled Egypt for a period of time.


That is all opinion in my book. Do you have anything else? Papers, scholarly works and such?

[edit on 2-11-2009 by cenpuppie]



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by buds84
These are the lost Tribes of Israel

Judah — Black Americans
Benjamin — West Indians (Caribbean)
Levi — Haitians
Simeon — Dominicans
Zebulon — Guatemalans, Panamanians
Ephraim — Puerto Ricans
Manasseh — Cubans
Gad — Native American Indians
Reuben — Seminole Indians
Asher — Colombians, Uruguayans
Napthali — Argentines, Chileans
Issachar — Mexicans
Some Australians, Hawaiian, New Zealand and Irish slaves also.


Each of these country connected to slavery. Actually none of them real Isralites at all. Did you heard about the Israelites were involved in slavery? Look after it on the net and you'll find the answers for everything and it will explains everything.

Lost tribes of Israel... Greatest BS, nothing more.

But as I see this is going to be the new trick. Now they're going to claim, after Israel, these countries are also belong to them, because GOD gave it to them. They also tried this in my country last year. They suddenly figured out and tried to convinced US, they were here before my ancestors and this land is theirs, it's the land of the Israelite and it's not the land of my people (Hungarians). So, don't believe this BS propaganda, regardless what fabricated proofs they're presenting to you. As Israel is loosing somehow, accidentally or by some miracle of "God" new and new "evidences" will blow to surface which is going to tell you... Oh, my. We're brothers and sisters. We belong to YOUR land. Even better. YOUR LAND IS OURS.

For the moderator, please consider this thread as a hoax. Thanks.

[edit on 2-11-2009 by Sharrow]



posted on Nov, 2 2009 @ 05:09 PM
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NAR its these ..
www.loveyah.com...
www.ondoctrine.com...



NOT




[edit on 11/2/2009 by dashar]



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