NorthEast IntelNet documentary: Morality of violent punishment~, page 9

Originally posted by EMPIRE
You’re highly misinformed. I never said I hated America. I openly stated I have no feelings for America, no love, no hate, and that I do plan on leaving. However, your attempts at somehow proving I’m motivated by hate is irresponsible and downright laughable.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
I also know many Americans are hypocrites, liars, thieves, murderers and rapists who promote such madness to benefit from it.

Source

reply to post by SLAYER69

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How is that an indication of hate or showing hatred? That is an obvious truth that blind people would say is an opinion. However, what did I tell YOU and others in the following thread?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Who said I hate the country? I said I feel no connection to the country. Hate, or love, would imply an intrinsic connection, but as previously stated, I have no connection. This is simply the place I was born, nothing more.

Good job, slayer. You've once again shown you lack the mental capacity to tell the truth, good job friend. Now read it several times and stop LYING.

Oh and heres another for you champ and ultimately earns you a FAIL card.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is an easy one to answer. I feel no connection to this country. However, when I used the term "they" I was speaking in reference to the hypocrits, who say they want change and to bridge gaps, but in reality don't want to.

Wow! I just said I feel no connection and then started to talk about hypocrits. Now I'm asking you to stay on talking because you're obviously lying and not staying on topic.

[edit on 2-11-2009 by EMPIRE]

Originally posted by EMPIRE

Originally posted by ADVISOR
EMPIRE

I did not post this thread to under go an inquisition by you, or the member previous to you.

So why exactly did you post this thread?

[color=Navy]I already have stated why, and for clarity will repeat, "For public awareness". [/color]

Am I a hypocrite, yes. Who isn't?

Plenty of people aren’t hypocrites.

Please, find them. The world would be a better place.

But show me some one who does not feel rapists and child abusers/molesters deserve the worse form of punishment...

Go to www.apa.org... and spend some time on the site.

And I will show you an individual who doesn't, doesn't belong among us.

See above, and not only are you a hypocrite (your words not mine), but you also endorse bias and discrimination when it suits your belief system.

Yes, I admitted to such, so sue me for being who I am.

Why should these people not be amongst us? Because they believe in rehabilitation?

[color=Navy]No, because they beleive people who could rape a child deserves to be rehabilitated. (but as mentioned this is all my personal opinion) Who would want another who commited such an act loose, rehabilitated... BS. A child molester, or rapist is not rehabilitated. It's like saying a dog who took a bite out of a baby, is not going to bite again. [/color]

What race am I, I am of the human race. How about you?

So if you’re of the human race how is that punishment got our race into this so-called mess? Wouldn’t a rational person look at deviance or the things which usually cause deviance as the problem?

Unclear statement, please reword or clarify?
To me, what I said made sence. Extremists of islamic faith are the ones routinely mutiliating and murdering people. Not normal Islam, extreme.

Since you asked (and I am guessing, you meant my ethnicity) I am of mixed Lebanese and Scandinavian decent. What does it matter, truely?

I asked because you said it, and I couldn’t make heads or tails of why you said it.

Hmm, perhaps my inability to be clear enough for you is the issue. I am sorry I was misunderstood, please move on, or is it that important?

Trying to label me as Christian or Islamic, Athiest or monotheistic?
Non issue, same as race it doesnt matter, we are all people.

No, you said “our race”, so I wanted to know what race you were talking about and how the actions in the vid contribute to the problem.

Race,

1.A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
4.Humans considered as a group.

When I reference race, that is what I mean.

It is that exact, EXACT type of BS divisive mentality that divides us all.

Again, I’m not the one who mentioned race, you did. Moreover, you speak of divisive mentality as if you’re the harbinger of truth, yet you admit to being a hypocrite and have single handedly attacked a group of people for no reason.

[color=Navy]
Race covered, please move on.
I'm not, the harbinger of truth...damn councilors, they lied to me.
Thank you for makeing that much clear to me, I will locate this real harbinger of truth and let him know you have putme in my place.

[/color]

Again, this thread is being derailed. You or any one else whom wants off topic answers fromme, please by all means U2U me, if your going to cause topic drift.

So now when people ask you to stop showing bias the thread is being derailed?


No, it is off topic. Obviuosly I am biased, and even admitted it.
Arguement moot, please, is it that important (I admit to being baised), only to be called biased?


When people ask you about comments you made about race the thread is being derailed?

[color=Navy]
No, it was additional topic interference that makes it "derailed", aka these forms of banter being exchanged between you and I, which are off topic.
[/color]

I’m sorry but what you’re doing is downright wrong, and you need to look at your shortcomings and blatant bias before you accuse others of derailing threads and going off topic.


You are right, and I acknowledge what you have pointed out for me.
Perhaps, this is what it was, I had to learn from you.


Again, you, ADVISOR, mentioned race, so it is only logical that when a person does not understand a comment (that was so over the top that openly laughing at it would result in a ban or another -1,000 ATS points) that they ask for clarification or an explanation of the statement, which I did.

[color=Navy]
Race covered, please move on. As for ban, or -1K points, I saw none of that and know I didn't so, what is this about?
[/color]

But, by all means if you feel your questions merit a public address start a new thread and invite me there for your inquisition.

You should have started a new thread, or at least explained why you made the statement. But see, I know exactly what it is you’re doing. It’s word jugglery and fallacies that you’re relying on and you’ll attempt to make it seem as if I’m off topic when you’re the one who made the initial statement.


No, we both have gone off topic, due to our personanl exchange which as every one can see, you insisted upon by further pushing this here.

I am here and now, because of your confrontation, giving you the honest answers requested.

Moreover, you’ll have everyone high up the food chain siding with you because you’re a mod,


Well, if that is the case then what can we do to correct it?
I do not want any one siding with me, simply because of my position of responsibilty. I have seen much to the contrary, and am confident you as an example, have too.


but mods can be wrong, and you’re wrong on this one.


So be it, I am wrong.


I spent my time reading your thread, watching the video and said nothing to you until you quoted me. From then on you were fair game, you were fair game for making the thread, but I chose to not directly address, and you opened the doors for this exchange.


Every thing happens for reason, what ever reason that may havebeen when I quoted you, I am sure it was meant to happen.
I did learn some thing, from you, so for me it was worth it.

I how ever insist upon staying on topic.

If you insist on staying on topic stop introducing subject matter that has nothing to do with the thread, and if it does, at least give some insight as to why it does.


Again, and I repeat;
...perhaps my inability to be clear enough for you is the issue. I am sorry I was misunderstood, please move on, or is it that important?


Moreover, since you insist on staying on topic I have some questions you failed to address:

If we don’t know what crime was committed, we can’t say if the method was inappropriate.

[color=Navy]
No we don't. But we have a good idea, that it was treason or spying related. Is spying or treason, punishable enough to warrant beheading?
[/color]

We’re talking about death here and if they have laws that say people should be executed for X, and when executing you must do Y with Z, who are YOU to say they are wrong?


Who am I, a concerned human, who is worried about such forms of punishment being practiced, not only abroad but here in the USA.

I am yes. I am saying, they are wrong to use mutilation, disfigurement and beheading as a form of punishment. Exept, as I admit as a biased hypocrite, when rapists and child molesters are concerned.

Also, for the record I am not offended, upset or bothered by you or any fellow ATSer for questioning. But it should not cause the topic of this thread to drift to a topic about me.

Again, the only reason why this topic is about you is because you made it about you.


No, from where I am standing you did.
And from where I am standing you if correct and I incorrect, you are only enabling me to do so.

But, no one else but you, said I was making this about me.
Is this, in some form of reverse targeting, about you?


Moreover, pointing out bias and hypocrisy is a good thing, as it fits in with the “deny ignorance” tagline.

[color=Navy]
HOLY COW, I agree with you on some thing...
Does that mean, we could be secret friends, while publically being each other arch-nemis'es?
[/color]

I don't go to your threads, on an inquisition to question your motivation for submitting topics you feel are relevent, do I? The same is expected in return.
Thank you for careing enough, to voice your thoughts.

I’ve yet to make a thread here, and if I did, you have EVERY right as an ATS poster to post within the confines of ATS T&C and address me. More on this later.


You got me there.
Please, I insist that is not necessary, we have gone far enough away from the topic.
Or would you like this to be about you too?

May we please, now continue with this or do you really want me to start multiple threads each highlighting how examples of horror exist in every culture? I mentioned it, if you are too lazy to search for the few occurances I didnt link to then fine. thats your laziness.

No, I don’t want you to start multiple threads, that clearly isn’t what I asked.

[color=Navy]
Thank god, because I really wasn't prepared to go that far. But, that doesn't mean I wouldn't do it. Just not ready at the moment, or motivated enough. lol
[/color]

I asked for you to link me to vids you made that showed other religious groups committing atrocities.


There is an obvious misunderstanding in the communication on this, I never said I made vids. Only that others exist.


In other words, I’m asking you to stop promoting bias under the veil of denying ignorance and authority.

[color=Navy]
Well, to be honest I really didn't know I did such. Up until you said such, it never occured to me. No one else slipped me the memo...

I will make all efforts to stop promoting public awareness, if it is influenced by my personal bias. How ever, you must under stand, I don't see thing your way and it might be a challenge.

Again, I have learned another thing from you. Not sure if I want to thank you for this one though. To me is sounds like your saying I intentionally abused my ability to post as a member, even though I happen to be one with admin responcibilties.

You seem to be the one with a problem regarding what I have posted. No one else, even the previous inquisitor made such known.
[/color]

But I did lik to other examples, including US CIA renditions to Uzbekistan for torture, I feel that listing example has been done.

I read those, I read about the CIA giving the green light to boil people, etc. However, you seem to have a problem with people calling you on this great piece of propaganda, so I will refer back to my previous question: who are YOU to say they are wrong?


Who am I, a concerned human, who is worried about such forms of punishment being practiced, not only abroad but here in the USA.

I am yes. I am saying, they are wrong to use mutilation, disfigurement and beheading as a form of punishment. Exept, as I admit as a biased hypocrite, when rapists and child molesters are concerned.

Please, read the whole thread or at least my replies which have in most already commented on what you and others presented.I love you people, but dang nabit why so difficult?:lolI know, I know, advisor makes him self into such a pretty painted target)

I read your responses, and I’m glad you love us, but you are open to scrutiny and criticism just as everyone else.


As it should be, I never once avoided that I am, or attempted otherwise.


Moreover, as a result of being mod/admin, you are held to higher standards and callings, and providing answers to questions, clarifications etc come with the job.


I hope the above is satisfactory enough for you.
And so you know, I would not expect to not be.


Finally, you made yourself a target. I didn’t quote you, I was actually going to avoid saying anything to you but you quoted me and that has led to this exchange.

[color=Navy]
Well hell, your telling me all this could have been avoided if I didn't reply to you?

Next time, I might think about doing so again, but it may not stop me.

[/color]



Now, having delivered the above, I refuse to drift off topic of this threads subject again. All off topic questions, comments or other communications will be ignored, and I insist another thread presenting them, as suggested, be made.



I must have deserved this, but damn is it me or is this a bit more than it should be.


Please. don't answer that for the sake of doing so. But if any one inists for posterities sake, fine go ahead...

ATSers, what a bunch of "Waskily Wabbits"!

reply to post by SLAYER69

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Yes it was lying as you made claims that I hate this country and tried to use my words against me. Sorry fella, but it backfired, just like evrything else you've ever tossed my way, bud.

reply to post by EMPIRE

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Here is a quote from Advisor

There is no excuse, for any of it no one of the people involved in Gitmo, Uzbekistan or any other known and unknown occurances of human rights violations. They have no excuse for commiting such atrocities.

So, yes I have an agenda of pushing public awareness, and I feel that the more people know as individuals the more they will know as a whole.

Call me what you will, taunt and nit pick details of irrelevence. This is not a debate, on who's morals are better. We all know it is wrong, and if you disagree, then that is your right.

Here's your quote

Have the guys in the vid done anything different from Christians and Jews who used the scriptures to exploit Africans?

I agree with advisor. There are no excuse.

Your quote indicates that others do it, so why the big fuss over the video?

This isn't about what others do, which country does it more, or anything remotely similar.

It is about it being wrong and making people aware that animals like these do live among us. They come in different color, different shapes, different sizes, different religions but animals and barbaric individuals nonetheless. Making excuses for what they do is basically turning a blind eye. Only through awareness can we as humans take the action necessary to correct the problems.

If you feel the world should be aware of the atrocities committed by Christians and Jews, then please open up a thread and make us aware of what is going on.

You never know, you might enlighten people to things they were previously unaware of.

reply to post by ADVISOR

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Please, find them. The world would be a better place.

A better place? The world will kill them just as they always have, it’s best these people remain silent if they don’t want a bullet. However, some are open, you may find them living pious lives amongst the masses or outside of the public eye.

No, because they beleive people who could rape a child deserves to be rehabilitated. (but as mentioned this is all my personal opinion) Who would want another who commited such an act loose, rehabilitated... BS. A child molester, or rapist is not rehabilitated. It's like saying a dog who took a bite out of a baby, is not going to bite again.

Because I believe everyone deserves a second chance and that we’ve all made mistakes. Moreover, I believe a persons behavior is often a result of other factors/agents of socialization and/or prior abuse. Proof of this may be found in those who are molested and end up molesting others. Can everyone be rehabilitated? No, and I’m not calling for that, but I do believe we should take the time to understand deviance, especially sexual deviance, if we’re going to curb the problem and protect our children.

Unclear statement, please reword or clarify? To me, what I said made sence. Extremists of islamic faith are the ones routinely mutiliating and murdering people. Not normal Islam, extreme.

I left a word out which is why you didn’t get it. What I’m attempting to convey is that the people in the vids were being punished according to their laws. Therefore, we should look at the people committing the crimes, not the laws and punishment, as our beliefs about their laws and punishment are most likely bias.

Hmm, perhaps my inability to be clear enough for you is the issue. I am sorry I was misunderstood, please move on, or is it that important? When I reference race, that is what I mean.

No, I understand what you’re saying now and asked because I didn’t understand.

I'm not, the harbinger of truth...damn councilors, they lied to me.
Thank you for makeing that much clear to me, I will locate this real harbinger of truth and let him know you have putme in my place.

If you need directions to his hideout I can provide it.

No, it is off topic. Obviuosly I am biased, and even admitted it.
Arguement moot, please, is it that important (I admit to being baised), only to be called biased?

Yes it is important, and I believe many members find it important because we do hold the mods to a higher standard. Of course you guys have your opinions, and it’s right to share those opinions, but when the opinions clearly paint a group in such a faulty way things get blurry. And mind you I’m looking at it from a posters perspective and someone who isn’t even involved in Islam.

You are right, and I acknowledge what you have pointed out for me.
Perhaps, this is what it was, I had to learn from you.

Thankyou, and again, it is because we hold the mods to a higher standard that I’m saying what I’m saying.

No, we both have gone off topic, due to our personanl exchange which as every one can see, you insisted upon by further pushing this here.

I am here and now, because of your confrontation, giving you the honest answers requested.

I insisted on getting an answer to a statement you initially made, nothing more. It was not my intention to take it off topic as I was simply addressing something that was stated by you and addressed to myself.

Well, if that is the case then what can we do to correct it? I do not want any one siding with me, simply because of my position of responsibilty. I have seen much to the contrary, and am confident you as an example, have too.

Eliminating bias is a very good start.

Every thing happens for reason, what ever reason that may havebeen when I quoted you, I am sure it was meant to happen. I did learn some thing, from you, so for me it was worth it.

Thankyou, and even though you are a hypocrite and bias, I at least have respect for you because you admit these things. It takes a big person to admit this, so you’re “stand up” in that regards.

Who am I, a concerned human, who is worried about such forms of punishment being practiced, not only abroad but here in the USA. I am yes. I am saying, they are wrong to use mutilation, disfigurement and beheading as a form of punishment. Exept, as I admit as a biased hypocrite, when rapists and child molesters are concerned.

Friend, who is to say what they’re doing is wrong? On what grounds are they wrong? They used a knife, we use a chair. They use a rusty knife we use lethal injection. At the end of the day, should we argue about the methods or about what gives another human being the authority to take another human beings life?

There is an obvious misunderstanding in the communication on this, I never said I made vids. Only that others exist.

No it isn’t misunderstanding on my part but yours. I know you didn’t make vids, and in asking you to post them I was hoping that you would see I’m implying hypocrisy.

Well, to be honest I really didn't know I did such. Up until you said such, it never occured to me. No one else slipped me the memo... I will make all efforts to stop promoting public awareness, if it is influenced by my personal bias. How ever, you must under stand, I don't see thing your way and it might be a challenge.

You’re giving me a fair shake here, and in my opinion this is what mods should do. No we don’t agree with each other, and most likely won’t, but at least you’re showing me an inkling of respect and engaging what I feel are concerns instead of brushing them off. So again, you’re “stand up” in that regards.

Again, I have learned another thing from you. Not sure if I want to thank you for this one though. To me is sounds like your saying I intentionally abused my ability to post as a member, even though I happen to be one with admin responcibilties.

Partially, but what I’m ultimately saying is the users look to the mods to not only mod, but to be fair and impartial, even when they post. It may be hard to do so because you’re human like everyone else, but again, that is what people look for.

Well hell, your telling me all this could have been avoided if I didn't reply to you? Next time, I might think about doing so again, but it may not stop me.

Absolutely, this all could have been avoided but it was not to be avoided.

In closing, we may not agree, but I do believe we’ve both learned something. Now my question for you, and everyone else reading this thread, is how do we move forward as human beings? Surely these people are governed and ruled by what they feel are the words and will of “God.” Moreover, they’ve held these beliefs for thousands of years, so if “progression” is turning away from what some deem as barbarism or inhumane, how do we get them to do it? Remember, they think they are doing right by what they feel is the ultimate authority in the universe, so how do we fix it?

reply to post by realshanti

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Thanks for clarifying...I get what your saying and I do apologize But that said you need to know something about Afghanistan - there are thousands of people who live there who are participating members of the twentieth century, who are not Taliban tribesmen, who are modern in their practices and outlook, who believe in freedom from brutality and religious extremism....

It's their country. They should fight for it. Honestly we are/were after one man. That is UBL, now that we all but abandoned looking for him, Afghanistan is not our problem. If they want a free Afghanistan, if they want to not have to worry about these monsters. They need to fight for it.

these folk are terrified that we if we do leave they will be driven back to the dark ages by these Taliban creeps...my concern is that our forces are not there to secure a better future for these folks but to secure a pipeline which our government may end up doing at the expense of the people...

That pipeline is the only reason we are there. As point guards for KBR/Haliburton. Our military shouldn't be doing the job of a PMC.

There's never a simple solution is there???

No there isn't. But looking through history I can tell you that Afghanistan is a crappy place to fight a war. Mountain regions are horrible places to wage war in. Especially if your the outside force.

If Afghanistan wants to be free from these evil people and free from extremist rule, they are the ones that have to fight it. Along with neighboring countries who are directly affected by the stability of their corner of the world. If these people are too scared or too lazy to do anything about a nation rife with thugs and murderers, that is honestly their problem not ours. The mistake we make as the US is thinking that technological superiority is going to win us the day. It helps but strategy in a fight is more important than firepower.

If Afghans want freedom only Afghans can give it to them. The US can't do that. We should not fight the civil wars of other nations for them. And in all reality that is what this is, it's a civil war we started. Well Afghans need to stand up for themselves and stop these insane people. It's their country they have more of a vested interest in it than we will ever have.

The Taliban are monsters and this radical form of Islam that most normal Muslims detest needs to be stomped out.

[edit on 11/2/2009 by whatukno]

reply to post by flyingfish

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do i realy need to point out the oximoron in your statement, and thats why these videos work, you want to now wipe out poor old mr khan down the local shop for being islamic, who next?

reply to post by AshleyD

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ever wondered what it was that they did?, not that that is a reason to kill if you have any respect for life. but what would it take to make a punishment like this just?, i dont know, just a question

Originally posted by yahya99
reply to post by ADVISOR

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Hello there,
I am a Muslim, and I would like to share my thoughts and facts regarding your post. I hope you find this info I wish to share with you, useful.

I and many other Muslims all over the world do not support these extreme fanatics who claim that their actions are taught and are part of the sharia law. This is nothing but lies and deception. They are nothing but extremely sick brainwashed fanatics, who mix their extreme ways of their culture with the religion. Islam is a complete way of life, not just a religion. It teaches peace, and guidance from the creator of the heavens and the earth.

ISLAM doesn't teach killing, nor violence, unless you are in the battle field with your enemy (like in a war). Which is only natural to fight back.

Hi, and thanks for your nice post!

I do have some questions, though. When Muslims declare a Jihad, isn't that war? And hasn't one been declared against the US by Osama Bin Laden? He has even declared Obama to be an apostate, and called him a murtad. (so he is to be executed)

www.debka.com...

This video was sanitized and hardly discussed in the US, and most definitely avoided by the MSM.

How would Muslims decide then, if a Jihad is called, whether or not to agree to it and how are we to know which Muslims do and do not?

As I understand it, a large portion of Muslims/Islamists overseas, and some in the US are currently practicing in a Jihad against the US.

Thanks for your time, and I look forward to your reply, I appreciate you being willing to discuss this.

reply to post by Libertygal

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Anyone can answer your questions there libertygal.

UBL is a mass murdering (beep) head.

I don't think his version of Islam works for the majority of Muslims.

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