reply to post by Freedom ERP
Thank you for a very well written and thoughtful post. I agree with most of this.
With regards to the UKIP factor however, I think you may be underestimating the impact this will have at the next election if Europe is seen as a key
issue. There are lots of boroughs where the UKIP only have to win over 10% of the Tory support in order to split the vote and hand Labour the
constituency. They don't need to win a single seat in order to ruin the Tories' chances of government.
I think unless the Tories find a way to handle this, we may well be looking at a hung parliament and possibly a Labour / Lib Dem coalition for the
next 5 years.
Cameron surrenders to lisbon treaty, page 2
privacy
reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 08:51 AM by Bunker or Bust
reply to post by mattpryor
God help us!
How this guy can keep coming back I don't understand!
[edit on 12-11-2009 by Bunker or Bust]
God help us!
How this guy can keep coming back I don't understand!
[edit on 12-11-2009 by Bunker or Bust]
reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 09:36 AM by mattpryor
reply to post by Bunker or Bust
I agree, it's insane.
How can we have a European foreign minister who hasn't been elected by anyone to hold any office?
To be honest with Blair as President and Mandelson as Foreign Minister, I'd rather go and live in Russia than be a citizen of Labour's Nu-Europe. At least they go through the motions of electing their leaders.
I agree, it's insane.
How can we have a European foreign minister who hasn't been elected by anyone to hold any office?
To be honest with Blair as President and Mandelson as Foreign Minister, I'd rather go and live in Russia than be a citizen of Labour's Nu-Europe. At least they go through the motions of electing their leaders.
reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 09:54 AM by mattpryor
reply to post by Laurauk
Nothing wrong with splinter parties, however extreme their positions. The trouble is that our political system doesn't accommodate them.
UK politics is in desperate need of a redesign.
Nothing wrong with splinter parties, however extreme their positions. The trouble is that our political system doesn't accommodate them.
UK politics is in desperate need of a redesign.
reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 09:58 AM by djvexd
reply to post by kindred
So what are we supposed to do other than getting the info out? I have been in prison it's not so fun. So what do YOU suggest. We can't act physically. Voices seem the only way unless you have an Idea. Didin't think so.
So what are we supposed to do other than getting the info out? I have been in prison it's not so fun. So what do YOU suggest. We can't act physically. Voices seem the only way unless you have an Idea. Didin't think so.
reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 10:04 AM by Laurauk
reply to post by mattpryor
It beeds a complete overhall, kick out the rats, whom are in Parliament now. Vote in new Mp's. But then again, those standing for parliament offer everything to the voters, once they are voted in, they usually do the opposite. So we are in a no win situation.
It beeds a complete overhall, kick out the rats, whom are in Parliament now. Vote in new Mp's. But then again, those standing for parliament offer everything to the voters, once they are voted in, they usually do the opposite. So we are in a no win situation.
reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 01:09 PM by kindred
reply to post by djvexd
I've already said what needs to be done, but sitting on our backsides isn't going to achieve anything. What I said was only an example of what we could and should be doing and it also happens to be legal, so nobody need worry about going to prison. Our democracy isn't dead yet, but it soon will be unless we act now. There are plenty of people throughout Europe who oppose the Lisbon Treaty, so we need to come together somehow and create a movement that opposes the EU Treaty and together there's nothing stopping us from creating a new democratic constitution that's in the best interests of all the people of Europe.
Obviously it would take lots of money, but there are plenty of millionaires who also oppose the EU treaty. So we would definitely need the support of these people, as well as people who are influential and who understand politics & law. Politics definitely isn't my strongest subject and neither is law.
What else can we do?
I've already said what needs to be done, but sitting on our backsides isn't going to achieve anything. What I said was only an example of what we could and should be doing and it also happens to be legal, so nobody need worry about going to prison. Our democracy isn't dead yet, but it soon will be unless we act now. There are plenty of people throughout Europe who oppose the Lisbon Treaty, so we need to come together somehow and create a movement that opposes the EU Treaty and together there's nothing stopping us from creating a new democratic constitution that's in the best interests of all the people of Europe.
Obviously it would take lots of money, but there are plenty of millionaires who also oppose the EU treaty. So we would definitely need the support of these people, as well as people who are influential and who understand politics & law. Politics definitely isn't my strongest subject and neither is law.
What else can we do?
reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 02:15 PM by djvexd
reply to post by kindred
No you haven't. You have put out some idealistic dream, that maybe in a perfect world, would work. Honestly the "solution" you suggest is something I would expect out of a High Schooler. I am not trying to insult you at all. But please, think these things out, and use real life scenarios and policies rather than dream ones.
No you haven't. You have put out some idealistic dream, that maybe in a perfect world, would work. Honestly the "solution" you suggest is something I would expect out of a High Schooler. I am not trying to insult you at all. But please, think these things out, and use real life scenarios and policies rather than dream ones.
reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 04:25 PM by Bunken Drum
reply to post by kindred
However, I'm used to idiots. Where my patience ends is when he starts on the "England" rant. I spit on his Englishness. As an Englishman myself, the last thing I need is an ignorant Jesus-splurging propagandist having any say in the running of a car-park, let alone this country!
From Mike JamesWell, my voice within is neither still nor small, especially after reading Mike's opinions: it started by laughing my still small arse-within off, but, as I continued, became considerably less amused. You see, refering to the same thing as Zionist, Marxist, Soviet & Fascist does a good job of pushing the emotional buttons of a broad range of undereducated people, but anyone who knows what those words actually mean, & thus the different ideologies they refer to, cannot help but be struck by Mike's absurdity. That he then invokes Jesus & the Christian god in the name of white Europeans demonstrates how laughably out of touch with the reality of the rapid decline of Christianity, amongst us, he truly is. He also fails to mention how Europe, & Britain in particular, have benefitted immensely from successive waves of immigration, from antiquity onwards & still do. This ignorance would be funny too, if it were not couched in thinly veiled racism.
Don't listen to me. I am only a man. Listen to that still, small voice within; and then act accordingly.
However, I'm used to idiots. Where my patience ends is when he starts on the "England" rant. I spit on his Englishness. As an Englishman myself, the last thing I need is an ignorant Jesus-splurging propagandist having any say in the running of a car-park, let alone this country!
reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 04:45 PM by Bunken Drum
reply to post by kindred
Oh & another thing, how about we dust off the age old question, "Qui bono?" Who gains from these Nationalist revolutions Mike James is calling for?
Well certainly, in the short term, the USA, as a fractured Europe would halt the continuing gains the €uro is making against the US$ as a reserve currency. Still, the US economy is doomed, the US$ will fail whatever they do: there are just far too many in circulation & there just isn't enough stuff that can be bought with them - oil is running out. In the long term, the BRIC nations, who have the stuff to sell, would see their currencies value rocket, unless of course, Medvedev's One World Currency was implemented, in which case our Western National Currencies would simply be valued against it quite poorly.
People can rant all they like about ideologies, sovereignty, even religion, in the final analysis, politics is about the money; who's got it, how do we get more & if someone is preventing this, how do we stop them? Still, I wonder who's paying Mike James? Maybe he's just a 'useful idiot'?
Oh & another thing, how about we dust off the age old question, "Qui bono?" Who gains from these Nationalist revolutions Mike James is calling for?
Well certainly, in the short term, the USA, as a fractured Europe would halt the continuing gains the €uro is making against the US$ as a reserve currency. Still, the US economy is doomed, the US$ will fail whatever they do: there are just far too many in circulation & there just isn't enough stuff that can be bought with them - oil is running out. In the long term, the BRIC nations, who have the stuff to sell, would see their currencies value rocket, unless of course, Medvedev's One World Currency was implemented, in which case our Western National Currencies would simply be valued against it quite poorly.
People can rant all they like about ideologies, sovereignty, even religion, in the final analysis, politics is about the money; who's got it, how do we get more & if someone is preventing this, how do we stop them? Still, I wonder who's paying Mike James? Maybe he's just a 'useful idiot'?
reply posted on 12-11-2009 @ 05:29 PM by Bunken Drum
reply to post by mattpryor
We know what the Tories would do to the economy... Sell it to their rich cronies & spend the money on creating quangos staffed by their family members & political supporters on fat salaries to oversee the corruption & price rises in newly privatised national assets. Until, once again, the country will be teetering on the brink of social collapse, the electorate will vote Labour, who will not have the revenue to fix the problems quickly enough, nor the sense to realise that actually, the economics of the 80s really were totally flawed, that government spending does not have to be particularly efficient to make a positive impact, if such inefficiency goes toward higher wages for low level staff. The reason being that those people spend what they earn back into the economy quickly, whereas the 'trickle-down' effect is a myth. Giving the rich tax cuts just means they invest more in international markets & the price of very desirable property goes up. Entrepreneurial business is not created by top-down investment, but by customers with money to spend.
New Labour = Thatcherism Lite. Give the only people we haven't yet a chance to screw things up in a new way - Vote LibDem!
I think unless the Tories find a way to handle this, we may well be looking at a hung parliament and possibly a Labour / Lib Dem coalition for the next 5 years.That would be my prefered outcome. I dont think the LibDems have much of an overall economic strategy, but they do have plenty of ideas I support, like Proportional Representation, which would strengthen accountability in democracy. They're also big on decentralising control over financing of local authorities which would be better for our domestic economy.
We know what the Tories would do to the economy... Sell it to their rich cronies & spend the money on creating quangos staffed by their family members & political supporters on fat salaries to oversee the corruption & price rises in newly privatised national assets. Until, once again, the country will be teetering on the brink of social collapse, the electorate will vote Labour, who will not have the revenue to fix the problems quickly enough, nor the sense to realise that actually, the economics of the 80s really were totally flawed, that government spending does not have to be particularly efficient to make a positive impact, if such inefficiency goes toward higher wages for low level staff. The reason being that those people spend what they earn back into the economy quickly, whereas the 'trickle-down' effect is a myth. Giving the rich tax cuts just means they invest more in international markets & the price of very desirable property goes up. Entrepreneurial business is not created by top-down investment, but by customers with money to spend.
New Labour = Thatcherism Lite. Give the only people we haven't yet a chance to screw things up in a new way - Vote LibDem!
reply posted on 13-11-2009 @ 02:39 AM by Bunker or Bust
reply to post by Britguy
That block is still there
Joking aside I think things could easily get that way as frustration continues to build. Sounds extreme but something
extreme needs to happen to break this cycle, all political parties in the UK are the same.
Maybe our next PM should be someone that didn't go to Eton/Oxford/Cambridge and has spent a spell out of work.. Who would be more than happy on the basic MP salary and wouldn't want to have "outside interests" due to ethics!
That block is still there
Joking aside I think things could easily get that way as frustration continues to build. Sounds extreme but something
extreme needs to happen to break this cycle, all political parties in the UK are the same. Maybe our next PM should be someone that didn't go to Eton/Oxford/Cambridge and has spent a spell out of work.. Who would be more than happy on the basic MP salary and wouldn't want to have "outside interests" due to ethics!
reply posted on 13-11-2009 @ 04:50 AM by kindred
reply to post by djvexd
It's all fair and well insulting me. You seem to think you're more educated than I am. so what's your master plan?
It's funny how you criticize me for what I said, but what I said is exactly how those in power forced the EU treaty upon everyone.
Bunken Drum
If you think the UK has benefited from immigration, then it shows how out of touch with reality you are.Also let me guess, you voted for Tony
Blair and New Labour. A Christian Zealot if I ever saw one. 
Yet again, plenty of criticism, but no solutions to the problems we face.
Well said Brit Guy
You have to laugh at those who seem to think voting Tory is somehow going to miraculously fix things, when they serve exactly
the same people.
[edit on 13-11-2009 by kindred]
It's all fair and well insulting me. You seem to think you're more educated than I am. so what's your master plan?
It's funny how you criticize me for what I said, but what I said is exactly how those in power forced the EU treaty upon everyone.
Bunken Drum
If you think the UK has benefited from immigration, then it shows how out of touch with reality you are.
Also let me guess, you voted for Tony
Blair and New Labour. A Christian Zealot if I ever saw one. Yet again, plenty of criticism, but no solutions to the problems we face. Well said Brit Guy
You have to laugh at those who seem to think voting Tory is somehow going to miraculously fix things, when they serve exactly
the same people. [edit on 13-11-2009 by kindred]
reply posted on 13-11-2009 @ 04:58 AM by Freeborn
The Party political system has failed us and is a joke.
We need people's politicians who will put the interests of their constituents first and foremost rather than obeying the party line regardless of personal conviction or interest.
I have posted this before, but offer no apologies for doing so again; we need a modern day Cromwell, (minus his religious bigotry!):
The Dissolution Of The Long Parliament.
"It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.
Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?
Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors. In the name of God, go!"
en.wikisource.org...
[edit on 13/11/09 by Freeborn]
We need people's politicians who will put the interests of their constituents first and foremost rather than obeying the party line regardless of personal conviction or interest.
I have posted this before, but offer no apologies for doing so again; we need a modern day Cromwell, (minus his religious bigotry!):
The Dissolution Of The Long Parliament.
"It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.
Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?
Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors. In the name of God, go!"
en.wikisource.org...
[edit on 13/11/09 by Freeborn]
reply posted on 13-11-2009 @ 05:08 AM by kindred
reply to post by Freeborn
Good quote. Seems like history is repeating itself. Well you obviously have the values and principles that people are now crying out for. What we need is a modern day "Oliver Cromwell". The quickest way to bring down a corrupt system is from within. You ever thought about becoming an MP.
Good quote. Seems like history is repeating itself. Well you obviously have the values and principles that people are now crying out for. What we need is a modern day "Oliver Cromwell". The quickest way to bring down a corrupt system is from within. You ever thought about becoming an MP.
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