Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

reply to post by marg6043


Deaths from pneumonia were in the hundreds in Mexico during the initial outbreak, but the WHO did not acknowledge them and nor did the Mexican government.

reply to post by ecoparity


Hey, that's how it works here. What are we on, page 79? By 83 we'll be onto a new ideology on this event. We are feeling it out and learning bits and pieces, I think most people on this site are smart enough to sift through the info, actually that's what we all do, right? Just becuase we put some arbitrary info out there, does not make us disinfo agents or worse. We are posting all relevent and even irrelevent stuff to become more knowledgable.
It's ok, ATS is not the world, just a group of info junkies. Now onto the next pages.

reply to post by SunnyDee


A minority of idiots, on this site, are too paranoid to even venture out of their homes. Hard working members - like us - who spend hours covering a story are disinfo agents. Did you get the memo about it?

Thinking for yourself and researching is a social taboo in the conspiracy field. Remember, have to listen to those degenerates at infowars.com instead



[edit on 2-11-2009 by infinite]

Originally posted by infinite

Originally posted by AllexxisF1
The only credible announcement came from the WHO and they said its a normal H1N1 outbreak.

The WHO stopped giving weekly updates back in August. Many members, including those in Ukraine, have spent painstaking hours searching the internet for articles and translating them for us.

Please, do not post insulting comments against their hard work. It is execrable and uncalled for

Except for the WHO making a statement today claiming that it was just an H1N1 outbreak.

But more to the point I insulted no one, all I asked for is anyone with credible sources. So far all we got is tons of paranoia , shocker with literally zero evidence other than "internet sources".

So excuse me if I ask again if anyone has anything even remotely concrete?




[edit on 2-11-2009 by AllexxisF1]

reply to post by AllexxisF1


So Ukrainian media isn't credible. How Xenophobic.



[edit on 2-11-2009 by infinite]

I've been keeping tabs over at another forum where Dr Niman of recombinonics.com posts. I am copying and pasting a round up and some stats made by one poster and Dr Niman's comments follow it:


"The latest report from the Ministry of Health in Ukraine (08.00 morning of 2 November):
a total of 255504 cases of flue (all cases of flue)
hospitalizations: 15667 cases
of which in intensive care: 174
number of deaths: 67

No updates since then (seems they started to manage information ....).

Some facts:
1. Until now 22 people have been tested positive for H1N1, of these 22 tested only a limited number are persons that had DIED of flu like symptoms, the others tested are persons that had SYMPTOMS of flu
2. Not all people that died from flu like symptoms (i.e. the 67) have been tested for H1N1
This can be explained by the fact that Ukraine has only 200 tests for H1N1 flu in the country (was just mentioned 5 minutes ago by a member of the Parliamentary commitee on Health issues on the TV programme Schuster).
In other words:
Yes, there are some cases of deaths caused by H1N1. However, the large majority of deaths has NOT yet been tested, and it can therefore not with certainty be said that they died from H1N1 (until the test results come in).

3. Mortality rate was 1 out 3000 on Friday, it is notching close now to 1 out of 4000 (67/255504). So we are talking about a mortality rate of about 0.03%. This is actually not a very alarming rate it seems for H1N1.

4. Ukraine was in shock from Thursday on because only then the large public became aware that something serious was going on in the western part of the country.

5. What was most shocking (especially when you compare it to the situation in EU countries )is that there was a large number of deaths within just a few days. Counting 67 from Thursday on. That is in less than 1 week. If I am correct the count for whole Europe was 268 deaths, starting from the beginning of the epidemic months ago. So about 1/4 th of deaths as in whole Europe and that in a much much much shorter period (to compare: Ukraine has 46 million inhabitants).

So far the facts. A guesstimate from my side:
The actual number of deaths is higher than reported by government (to avoid panic), at least higher with a factor 2 (based on informal information received from reliable sources in government strucures in the oblasts concerned as related to Friday's body count (no need to expect that government would change that policy)

My conclusion so far: the flu (if it is H1N1, seasonal flue, a combination or mutation or whatever strain) is spreading very fast. In terms of mortality the rate does not seem very high.

A note: It is vey difficult to make any estimates as to the mortality rate as no differentiation is made between H1N1 and other flues (because there is only 200 tests in the country for H1N1). So in the best case mortality is about 0.03% (67/255504). If 2/3 of the 255504 flue cases reported is seasonal flue, the mortality rate of H1N1 about triples to 0.1%."

DR NIMAN REPLIED :

"Thanks fro the update. There are a couple of relevant facts that should go into calculations. First and foremost is the fact that there is NO seasonal flu circulating in Europe at this time. Thus ALL flu is swine (pandemic H1N1).
The second consideration is the time lag between detection / admission and death. CFR are based on deaths over total, but there is no "outcome" until those infected have recovered. Thus, the CFR cited above assumes ALL infected at this time will recover and there is no reason to expect that outcome."

This links to page 33 of said forum where comments were made

I think there is a misconception as well regarding the flu vs pneumonia.

Pneumonia simply means an infection of one or both lungs caused by a pathogen of some kind. Influenza can cause viral pneumonia. Bacterial pneumonia, with exceptions of course (anthrax, plague, some forms of fungus, water inhalation, etc.) usually (not always) doesn't occur unless someone already has a viral infection (such as the flu) or some other factor (chemotherapy, HIV, cancer, sometimes pregnancy, etc.) that weakens them to opportunistic bacterial infections.

Hence, lots of people with the flu, particularly if they have viral pneumonia, develop secondary bacterial infections as well. But the flu on its own is perfectly capable of killing someone via viral pneumonia. This doesn't usually happen in healthy people unless the virus has a particular propensity to infect lung tissue (which the 2009 H1N1 virus does,) the patient has an underlying condition that makes it more likely (asthma, bronchecstasis, emphysema, various forms of COPD, etc.) or, yes, they also develop an aforementioned concurrent bacterial infection.

Pneumonia and flu aren't always two different things is my point.

[edit on 11/2/2009 by AceWombat04]

reply to post by jonny2410


We don't know if there has been a swine flu mutation there yet. Even if it has mutated that doesn't mean the vaccine is now wasted - the vaccines target the infection vectors, not the specific genetic make up of each virus. It would have to mutate very heavily for the vaccine to no longer work (but everyone assumes any mutation means vaccines go poof).

There was no vaccine program in Ukraine. Even though I won't be getting a shot I'm still glad that tens of millions of other people will. Herd immunity still works AFAIK. We reached 60 million vaccinated in the US as of October so I don't think we'll see as bad of an outbreak.

I do think the swine flu is going to kill a lot of people in E Europe and other countries where vaccinations were not made a priority. While I'll agree vaccines are not the ideal technology they do work albeit in a very primitive and often dangerous way. As I've said, sometimes you have a choice of which evil to take - die right now or die later but earlier than you may have? Tough choice, obviously.

I think that's why some people take comfort in denying the facts. No swine flu threat = no need for vaccine = no need to worry about it. Granted its a foolish position to take, you should at least be up front about the real risk you take in not taking the vaccine but if it helps people sleep at night then go for it.

The entire report of pneumonic plague is an Internet rumor which has lesser news services all referencing each other's stories about said rumor. Meanwhile the official Ukraine ministry of health charts show swine flu as the cause of infections and deaths followed by secondary pneumonia infections from swine flu victims.

There's nothing new there except the number of infected is a lot higher than previous regional outbreaks in the amount of time given (past 60 days).

Originally posted by infinite
reply to post by SunnyDee

 

A minority of idiots, on this site, are too paranoid to even venture out of their homes. Hard working members - like us - who spend hours covering a story are disinfo agents. Did you get the memo about it?

Thinking for yourself and researching is a social taboo in the conspiracy field. Remember, have to listen to those degenerates at infowars.com instead

[edit on 2-11-2009 by infinite]

who are you referring to as a minority of idiots? I am scared yet it is because I have a lot of anxieties.

Originally posted by infinite
reply to post by AllexxisF1

 

So Ukrainian media isn't credible. How Xenophobic.


[edit on 2-11-2009 by infinite]

Great, keep getting all your info from The Crapastickstan Gazette.

Meanwhile I will stick with the N.Y. Times that says so far this is nothing but an H1N1 outbreak.

well CNN is very busy today....
Get the shot propaganda

reply to post by dreamseeker


I wasn't referring to you. So don't worry

May I ask what kind of "concrete evidence" u would like to see?

-Kdial1



Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by AllexxisF1


It was covered in the New York Times, few pages back.

Thank you for displaying your level of intelligence to the group. No seriously, if you wasn't lazy enough to read back a few pages, you could of answered your own question

Oh newbies...

reply to post by infinite


ok thanks for clarifying I am very senstive due to my generalized anxiety disorder.
I really need to try to step away from this site. I have college work to do.

reply to post by dreamseeker


That's okay.

Just remember to take your medication before posting. Keeps you safe

Originally posted by infinite
reply to post by AllexxisF1

 

It was covered in the New York Times, few pages back.

Thank you for displaying your level of intelligence to the group. No seriously, if you wasn't lazy enough to read back a few pages, you could of answered your own question

Oh newbies...

Newbies?

Who the heck do you think you are?

The N.Y. Times article ( I will be glad to post it once more because apparently you have a problem with reading comprehension) states that this is a normal H1N1 outbreak and that all this paranoia is probably being fed for political reasons in an upcoming election.

So pray tell what part out of that article even remotely suggests some new strain or a bacteria born pathogen running amuck in the Ukraine?

reply to post by infinite


medication for what? I am confused? I am not on any types of medications?
You mean for the anxieties?

In an effort to discuss the topic and not each other:

So little is being reported in the MSM, who's to know.
I suspect this is H1N1 and that fear...and politics... is playing a large part in the uproar.

hisz.rsoe.hu...
from
Situation Update No. 15
On 02.11.2009 at 17:54 GMT+2

Urging its citizens not to panic, Ukraine on Monday closed down all schools nationwide for a week to avoid the spread of swine flu and suggested that nightclubs, cinemas and food markets in the west also shut down. The World Health Organization said Monday there was no evidence that Ukraine had a bad outbreak of swine flu but at the government's request it had sent a health team in to help the country cope. "But this is not an indication that the situation is severe," said WHO spokeswoman Liuba Negru. "The information we have gotten (from the government), we have to double-check it and make sure it is real, evidence-based information." Ukraine's Health Ministry said Monday that 67 people in the nation of 40 million have died of flu, but did not say how many of those deaths were related to swine flu. Worldwide, outbreaks of regular seasonal flu claim 50,000 lives each year. Nevertheless, all schools have been closed for a week across Ukraine, even in the capital, Kiev, where there have been no confirmed cases of swine flu.

and

Ukraine is in a panic about swine flu, with officials closing schools, imposing travel restrictions and limiting public gatherings. Yet many suspect that politics, not health issues, are behind the uproar. The World Health Organization said Monday there is no evidence that Ukraine's outbreak is particularly severe, leading some political analysts to say Ukraine's politicians are using the swine flu scare to earn political points ahead of the country's presidential election in January. "Right now all the candidates are weighing their political options, looking around for a theme, and this is a very hot topic right now. The panic is there, and they are acting on it," said Konstantin Bondarenko, director of the Gorshenin Institute, a political think tank.

[edit on Mon Nov 2 2009 by DontTreadOnMe]

[edit on Mon Nov 2 2009 by DontTreadOnMe]

reply to post by AceWombat04


We were telling people on ATS back in May that a high number of swine flu victims ended up contracting secondary pneumonia and advising them to get the pneumococcal vaccine.

I've posted probably a dozen times that Ukraine is not equipped to test accurately for H1N1 and is probably classifying a large number of swine flu deaths as "pneumonia" deaths.

This, combined with the WHO decision not to publicize the symptoms of the most severe swine flu cases (severe bleeding from the lungs and orifices, shedding of skin, discoloration, etc) no doubt has led some people to blame the only other pathogen they see in that region with similar symptoms, that being pneumonic plague.

What literally drives me insane is watching ATS posters continue posting an Internet rumor as fact, even when the news articles they link to plainly state it as rumor.

The plague is not like the flu people. You don't lie in bed at home and feel kind of sick. The symptoms are horrible and scary as hell and left untreated it kills 100 percent of the victims. If there was a plague going around in Ukraine the number of dead at this time would be in the thousands and the hospitals would be closed off by military troops with lines of sick and dying people in the streets. I do believe we would have some photos by now if that were the case....