Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

I think we need to clarify the current state of swine flu testing - it only works for a few days during a specific stage of the virus. It doesn't show up at all in the bodies of deceased victims.

When the first wave came through N America the rapid nasal swab test were being used. Two weeks later we found out the swab test couldn't even detect the swine flu, only a lab test taking much longer to perform could.

This is why Mexico City was able to go from 400 plus swine flu victims to a dozen in one day. Post-mortem testing came back negative so all those victims were re-classified as having died from respiratory distress. (They all just drowned in their own blood but that's perfectly normal, right?)

The testing for the virus is still completely inaccurate unless performed by a lab and the test takes a couple of days. This is why in the US they don't even test people now, they just assume you have swine flu and treat you for it. I wouldn't place too much stock in the current statistics in any way, we already know 100 people had died before the first report even came out of the Ukraine, for example.

reply to post by seattletruth


No they are not incompetent in overall, but they are overwhelmed by work at the moment. Also bear in mind that Ukraine's heath care in small cities and towns is not that great, couple of country doctors suddenly have hundreds of patients and they don't have a clue how to treat the illness in those very small hospitals where they are working at, situation easily becomes chaotic and no one knows what to do. Where do I base this? This is from forum called eva.ru I have been asking my russian friends to look around and tell me what they can see from various sources. That's where I heard things such as this one. It was reported by a nurse who worked in one of those hospitals. (not just one by the way)

Now this is based on rumors and speculations though, so you don't have to trust into it, although it makes a lot sense doesn't it?

In that case, illness is unknown and is reported as such. Those unknown illnesses have gone down after the first couple of days. Therefore I don't see that to state the fact we have some plague in our hands.

EDIT:

Forgot to add that do you really know how difficult it is to define it is indeed a swine flu? They even took samples to London, which are to be tested and results released tomorrow to see whatkind this virus really is.


[edit on 1-11-2009 by Luppakorva]

Who wanted to see "believable" sources about this not being H1N1? Well, here you go, the ukrainian prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko:

Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko announced this in an address to Ukrainians on October 31.
«Fourteen cases of the Californian influenza (the A(H1N1) influenza) had been established on the territory of our country as of 21:00 on October 31,» Tymoshenko said. She said that the government has declared an epidemic of the A(H1N1) influenza in Ukraine because it is a very dangerous illness that can threaten the lives of people.
At the same time, Tymoshenko called on Ukrainians not to panic.
She stressed that only 14 out of the 178,000 cases of influenza that have been registered in Ukraine this year involve the A(H1N1) influenza.

www.kyivpost.com...

Ukraine's leading English-language newspaper since 1995

14 out of 178000...
Guess they wouldn´t do all this quarantine stuff because of 14 swine flu patients (not deaths!), yet they tell us exactly that. Quite a stretch, aint it?
The other possibility would be quarantine because of normal flu? Sure...

I surely don´t know what it is, but my stomach tells me, it´s serious.

And i ofcourse thought about the possibility, that she/the government is lying to calm down people. But "only" because of swine flu? Doesn´t make sense to me.

[edit on 1-11-2009 by euleberlin]

Originally posted by Luppakorva
reply to post by ecoparity

 

Those H1N1 symptoms which not have been reported to prevent panic, can you let me know what they are? you mentioned that blood at least. Could you be a bit more specific?

I'm afraid I have to see it with my own eyes and quite soon, so any info about it is much appreciated.

I've already mentioned them - shedding of skin both external and internal (mouth, ears, nose, anus) - bleeding from the lungs, coughing up blood - we had pathology reports of "cooked organs" which is a bad way to put it - the organs didn't cook, the cellular structure broke down and bleeding occurred making them "appear cooked".

I had these reports coming in from multiple ER Drs, pathologists and virologists including sources within the CDC and WHO back in April / May. I don't know if any of these symptoms have been written up in medical forums or news sources since then but for me seeing the descriptions again form Ukraine is no surprise, I've seen it before many, many times.

For a while I was able to beat the news media by two weeks or so on real information but after we leaked the CDC internal reports to prove they were lying about the number of dead and infected the communications from certain sources dried up. You'd have to go back and read through the original swine flu thread to see but I can assure you, my sources are some of the best anyone could hope to have on this subject.

I'll see if I can find some media reports of the more extreme symptoms.

Originally posted by Luppakorva
reply to post by seattletruth

 

No they are not incompetent in overall, but they are overwhelmed by work at the moment. Also bear in mind that Ukraine's heath care in small cities and towns is not that great, couple of country doctors suddenly have hundreds of patients and they don't have a clue how to treat the illness in those very small hospitals where they are working at, situation easily becomes chaotic and no one knows what to do. Where do I base this? This is from forum called eva.ru I have been asking my russian friends to look around and tell me what they can see from various sources. That's where I heard things such as this one. It was reported by a nurse who worked in one of those hospitals. (not just one by the way)

Now this is based on rumors and speculations though, so you don't have to trust into it, although it makes a lot sense doesn't it?

In that case, illness is unknown and is reported as such. Those unknown illnesses have gone down after the first couple of days. Therefore I don't see that to state the fact we have some plague in our hands.

Ok. You show your biases the more you speak. Your main source for news is your Russian friends, who GUESS WHAT: are biased against Ukrainians.

Then you say, "well, they're not incompetant.. but yeah, its really crazy over there and they dont have enough people and they're not well trained and dont know how to treat the illness"..

Which is basically saying they are incompetent.

Sorry, but I tend it seems more likely that many doctors over there DO know how to tell the difference between NOVEL h1n1 and this plague, and you are just exercising wishful thinking and selective reading

You want to believe this is not anything else than h1n1, so you disregard any evidence to the contrary as "unreliable", and the only sources you site are western sources that conflict with themselves, many also claiming that there is something else causing pneumonic deaths other than h1n1.

reply to post by euleberlin


Check out what we are just discussing ..

I think that explains it why it was 14 in that news. And after that, check this one out: www.moz.gov.ua...

there you can find the real statistics.

Originally posted by asen_y2k

I am just in my second year. Don't know much about medicine. Expect we used to have basic therapy and surgery classes exactly in the hospital where the flu patients are being treated at the moment. All we know is resuscitation methods, asepsis and aseptic techniques(using them right now

), and paramedic and nursing stuff. And I read your post and noted ponts down too. I am very thankful to all the people here who have given me many good ideas to stay safe, appreciate it.
And oh I am sorry, I can't tell you any more info from the doctors/medical community as i am not in touch with them after the university closed...

Think of this as a crash course in emergency and pandemic medicine. The best learning is by experience, eh?

Anyway, the only other piece of advice I can give you (from a pharmacist's perspective) is this: if the WHO shows up (I read that they're supposed to be there tomorrow, I think?) and wants to give everyone in the area the H1N1 vaccine... if you have to take it, don't let them give it to you if you have any current symptoms. Because if you give the vaccine to someone when they have symptoms of an acute illness, it can only make it worse. Many physicians forget this basic rule.

You probably already know this, but in case you didn't, just wanted to remind you: If you're sick...no vaccines. Tell your friends, too.

I won't be taking the H1N1 vaccine myself (if I can help it) because I no longer believe in vaccines, but that's another story for another day!

[edit on 1-11-2009 by nikiano]

[edit on 1-11-2009 by nikiano]

@ Luppakorva
I checked the discussion the whole time, as well as this page.
I know that the tests aren´t good. But how can you be so sure, it´s h1n1? Wait the tests, just like the rest of us ppl.
And if there are rumors about this being a pneumonia plague outbreak, even in the russian Prawda and other newspapers (eg the news agency AFP, austrian standart etc.), then it´s normal to at least think about the possibility.

And so far, no one brought evidence this is not the plague. Can you provide that? No? Why do you demand evidence that it´s not h1n1 then?

An assumed similarity in symptoms is not an evidence.


[edit on 1-11-2009 by euleberlin]

reply to post by seattletruth


Even you're the best doctor in the word, but you do have 1000 patients to treat in one hour, (yes yes I'm making the amounts up just as an example) ..now how that makes him incompetent if he is not able to treat and diagnose them all?

Now I just have this to say before I'm going to end this fingerpointing because it is getting, well.. pointless. I just stated that by no means my sources ARE reliable and based on news this time, didn't I?

If it does not make sense to you and you want to believe into something else, hey. That's fine by me.

But don't say your own opinions are facts in that case. First you're telling us about 10 reliable sources which you don't have, then you're starting to accuse me of something such ridicule thing as being pro russian and if I do get back into that forum, the comments were from Ukrainians. I did not state it as facts though and you know it.

My sources, since when they have been western? ..Oh well, you know what, don't even answer. Let's end this right here right now, it's getting ridicilous.

For those of you in Ukraine, Poland, etc.. who might be near the epidemic but don't have access to flu medicines, here is a good article I found on the top 10 homeopathic remedies that have been used this year for flu.
Some of you might have more luck finding homeoapthic remedies than finding tamiflu, etc..

(All homeopathic remedies are named by their latin names, so they are the same no matter what country you live in.)

Source: Natural News

Remedies that homeopaths have found useful in treating this 2009 flu season include:

1. Ferrum Phos is always a good remedy to use in the first stages of flu. Ferrum phos can be taken in the 30c potency. Even the 6x potency, sold as a tissue salt, can stop a flu in its tracks. Ferrum phos can be alternated with Natrum Sulf during the first days of the flu.

2.Dulcamara is useful at the onset of a high fever. The Dulcamara cough hurts from muscular soreness. This flu is frequently brought on by cold, damp weather.

3. Nux vomica treats a flu with chills and pains in bones and joints. The irritability and chills are very marked.

4. Gelsemium treats a low fever, and is also a good remedy if you have not been well since the flu. Gelsemium patients experience weakness with shivering.

5. Arsenicum treats a burning fever that is accompanied with chills, restlessness and anxiety. The person needing Arsenicum is usually thirsty but only drinks small quantities at a time. They can have burning pains.

6. Bryonia is good for type of flu when the person does not want to move. The mouth is dry but they are thirsty.

7. Rhus tox flu can be accompanied with aching bones, restlessness, and a red tipped tongue. This is another remedy that is useful when the flu is brought on by damp weather.

8. Belladonna treats a high fever that comes on suddenly. Other accompanying symptoms of Belladonna include heat and redness.

9. Eupatorium perfoliatum experiences severe bone pains with great thirst.

10. Baptisia is a good remedy for flu, especially if it's centered in the gastro-intestinal track. This remedy can be helpful in the early stages of the flu. The person needing Baptisia can be weak, listless, and feel sore.


----

You can find more information about using homeopathy by googling the following phrase: homeopathic remedies for flu symptoms.







[edit on 1-11-2009 by nikiano]

reply to post by ecoparity


Thank you for your answer.

And I would really appreciate it if you can come back with any links / threads about it.

Originally posted by nikiano
Think of this as a crash course in emergency and pandemic medicine. The best learning is by experience, eh?

Anyway, the only other piece of advice I can give you (from a pharmacist's perspective) is this: if the WHO shows up (I read that they're supposed to be there tomorrow, I think?) and wants to give everyone in the area the H1N1 vaccine... if you have to take it, don't let them give it to you if you have any current symptoms. Because if you give the vaccine to someone when they have symptoms of an acute illness, it can only make it worse. Many physicians forget this basic rule.

You probably already know this, but in case you didn't, just wanted to remind you: If you're sick...no vaccines. Tell your friends, too.

I won't be taking the H1N1 vaccine myself (if I can help it) because I no longer believe in vaccines, but that's another story for another day!

[edit on 1-11-2009 by nikiano]

[edit on 1-11-2009 by nikiano]

Anyways if they have have police escort, or we get threatened with expulsion from the university then I will have to take the vaccine. No choice. Believe me i will do all i can to avoid it. Thanks I will keep this info in mind and let my friends know.
Luckily I have no symptoms yet(fingers crossed, and touching wood)
I am sure they are coming tomorrow as I had called up the universities foreign relations official for foreign students. She confirmed an 'international team' will be coming tomorrow.

Originally posted by Luppakorva
reply to post by euleberlin

 

Check out what we are just discussing ..

I think that explains it why it was 14 in that news. And after that, check this one out: www.moz.gov.ua...

there you can find the real statistics.

Could you translate please?

Mungo

reply to post by euleberlin


Yes I can't prove it is not plague, that is correct ...but for me, it has to be proved that suddenly there appears to be plague as well with quite similiar symptoms as this is. ..Now looking at ecoparity's answer it does make even more sense why these rumored reports have been gone out. Striking similiarities indeed.

But you're right, I can't prove it. No one can prove it to be plague either. So in a way, agreed. We have to wait and see.

reply to post by mungodave


I hope this helps at least a bit.

Google transator:

translate.google.com...

Ok I hear the aeroplane noise again. Its 2.58 AM.

By the way just reporting what I hear and in no way should this be taken as a confirmation of anything...

[edit on 1/11/09 by asen_y2k]

Originally posted by asen_y2k
Ok I hear the aeroplane noise again. Its 2.58 AM.

Wonder if it's the W.H.O. officials arriving?

Originally posted by Luppakorva
reply to post by ecoparity

 

Thank you for your answer.

And I would really appreciate it if you can come back with any links / threads about it.

There's a decent number of medical journal sources on google: desquamation + swine flu

(I always get the term confused and type desquamification instead of desquamication for some reason)

I posted reports of the severe symptoms here on ATS back in April / May but I can't find them even with the search tool. Is there a time limit on certain keyword index searches?

I'm sure there's at least a couple of ATS members who remember it if they're online.

Originally posted by dreams n chains

Originally posted by asen_y2k
Ok I hear the aeroplane noise again. Its 2.58 AM.

Wonder if it's the W.H.O. officials arriving?

I forgot to mention
I live here for 2 years and have never heard any planes go overhead. I remember making remarks to my friends before about how silent this area is compared to my home.
But there are flights commercial and or cargo everyday but they never fly over this part of the city. Its weird that i heard two flights(at least i think its that) in 1 night...And normally i do stay awake till 3 sometimes...



[edit on 1/11/09 by asen_y2k]

This will turn out to be nothing at all you guy do realize this. People in that country are running to the hospital with a cough or a stuffy nose and being told they have the flu(hospitals stopped testing for the flu in most countries)While they are at the hospital a few unlike ones that get beds and are put on ventilators are getting...

Hospital Acquired Pneumonia because the hospitals tehre have poor sanitary conditions.

I notice that most of the posts in this thread are from new members who for the most part are frothing at the mouths saying this is the new plague.

I understand that GOV'T PAID BLOGGERS descend on threads they can use to push agendas (flu vaccine)but this is rediculous.

[edit on 1-11-2009 by Beefcake]