Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

reply to post by marg6043

I wonder how many people that are HIV in the US are getting hit harder by the swine flu and account for the increases of death.

Yes, I do not understand why anyone should think in such simplistic terms as to imagine that any one pathogen acts alone and independently of others? The world is full of a multiplicity of organisms that have all, always, had to "live" with each other. From time to time they actually become co-dependent, like humans and their intestinal flora.

I consume Kefir on a regular basis that I make myself from live "grains". Those grains are composed of many different healthy bacteria as well as many yeasts; and together they make up a symbiotic mass that operates more effectively than any one of them independently to form a surviving colony. Together their effectiveness in fighting off opponents is enhanced. As a "community" they help fight off harmful bacteria in the body once consumed.

This is the way the natural world works. So why is it so hard to imagine flu viruses working in tandem with any number of other naturally occurring bacteria? God forbid that something like Kefir grains develops that is made up of harmful organisms instead of good ones.

Maybe it already has to some degree with the lung destroying thing now infecting people across the globe. I am not saying this is the case, but at any rate it is unlikely IMHO that a single bug is working alone to cause all of this illness.

EDIT to add: I fully expect that any person/group that wants to try and manipulate disease for commercial or political gain would use this knowledge to the fullest and test out various combinations that might work best to suit their needs.

[edit on 11/25/2009 by wayno]

reply to post by wayno


Is interesting and kind of sad that even I think that sometimes nature does its things to thin the weak from the strongest in nature, it does it with plants and lesser organism, it has done it through the centuries to allow species to develop and adapt to give way to more advance species.

But since modern medicine we the last emerging species has made a point on playing with nature rather than letting nature run its course.

We human think we can manipulate our environment that we are so special that nothing will decimate our species.

History tells another story from those species before us.

Diseases comes and goes, who is to say that nature is been trying very hard to get rid of all us pesky humans.

Usually as with any other pandemic the weak is the most affected while the healthier and stronger survive, still is those in our species that nothing environmental as viruses and bacteria have an impact on them.

Oh, well let me stop the rant.

From what i've just read on www.flucase.com it seems that this is a combined virus of bird flu & swine flu which is causing a much deadlier virus....

The WHO have also confirmed this on their website!!!

So i think it's time to stop the fearmongering with 'plane spraying' tactics.

200 people in Canada have died from the swine flu vaccine, 36 others had serious allergic reactions.

They are recalling the vaccine in Canda, by GSK. (Glaxo Smith Kline).

Link: www.euronews.net...

Funny, though. When I was driving home last night from work, I heard that they recalled the vaccine in Canada due to allergic reactions from the vaccine. They did not announce on the radio, however, that 200 people died.

Now tell me there isn't media censoring in effect here in America! Geesh. I'm about ready to move to another country....this is getting ridiculous. Whatever happened to the free press? Whatever happened to journalists with backbone?

Then I remembered....there seems to be one journalist willing to take a stand.

I had never read any of Jane Burgermeister's website until today. Why? I kept hearing about people saying she was "not trustworthy." People kept wanting to paint her as a radical nutjob. Hmm...by who? *SNIP*the same people on this website who seem to want to keep people believing that the Baxter indicent was truly not what it appears to be.

So, today, I went to her website. You know what? She seems PERFECTLY legitimate to me. She's not some radical liberal journalist who writes for an underground paper. Here is her bio. I ask you to read it, and then ask yourself: Does she sound like an untrustworthy nutjob to you? Seriously, read her bio:

Jane Burgermeister was born in Switzerland of an Irish mother and an Austrian father. She is a dual Irish/Austrian national and lives in Vienna, Austria.

With an MA Honours degree from Edinburgh University, Scotland, she has written for Nature, the British Medical Journal, The Scientist, Reuters Health, and The Guardian among other publications.

She was European Correspondent for the website of Renewable Energy World, a position from which she was suddenly dismissed in July 2009 after filing a series of criminal charges against Baxter, WHO and others alleging bioterrorism with the intent to commit mass murder.

For all charges check out:
wakenews.net...

For expert information about vaccines and the damage they cause, check out Dr Rebecca Carley’s website: www.drcarley.com.

The focus of the action is an episode in February 2009 when Baxter’s Austrian subsidiary distributed 72 kilos of vaccine material contaminated with live bird flu virus to sixteen laboratories, a case now being investigated by the Austrian police after criminal charges were filed in April 8th in Vienna.

More charges were filed with the FBI (US embassy, Vienna) in June.

Canadian doctor Ghislaine Lanctot — who has written a book, The Medical Mafia´– supported these charges against the WHO, the UN, and several high ranking government and corporate officials.

Burgermeister keeps getting slammed as a "nutjob" by people disinfo agents here on ATS. Of course.....what's the first thing the perpetrators of an evil crime do when someone tries to show others the truth? They try to discredit you.

*SNIP*

I am telling you people, watch out very carefully for people who are trying to portray themselves as "knowledgeable and professional people who know better than conspiracy theorists."

I'll tell you who is not trustworthy: the American government, and the entire freaking medical industrial complex.

Jane Burgermeister seems perfectly trustworthy to me.

here is her link:

www.theflucase.com...




[edit on 25-11-2009 by nikiano]
MOD NOTE: Please read and heed

In particular, insults, abuse, threats, harassment or any form of personal attacks are never on topic in any forum, are contrary to the very purpose of our forums and are strictly prohibited.

[edit on 25-11-2009 by burdman30ott6]

reply to post by nikiano


You might want to read back to July when she was telling her readers to launch preemptive strikes of violence against FEMA, the military and the US government before making that decision.

You should also look into what Dr Ott has to say about her. He and quite a few others who started off on her "team" are also warning people to watch out for her, and I don't agree with anything that man has to say. All the original members of her "prosecution" team except her fake lawyer have quit and are warning people.

If you people have some proof that someone is a "paid agent" of some kind then use the alert button and tell the mods. Otherwise quit making false accusations against people who disagree with you just to avoid having to debate the facts.

I find the report of 200 dead from the vaccine in Canada incredible.
Has anyone got any sources other than Euronews?

www.euronews.net...


[edit on 25-11-2009 by unicorn1]

reply to post by unicorn1


I was going to post this earlier in here but put it in the diseases forum instead:

www.theflucase.com... ghlighted-news&Itemid=105&lang=en

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by nikiano

 

Otherwise quit making false accusations against people who disagree with you just to avoid having to debate the facts.

I am debating the facts. You're the one that refuses to debate the facts. When someone shows you exactly what you request, and you don't like what is shown to you, you ignore it. Ignoring something is not a part of the Socratic method, the last time I checked.

Earlier on this thread, you kept saying, basically that no other virologist other than Dr. Niman has spoken about this in the public, and if we could show you any other virologist who had a different opinion, you'd like to see it.

I posted an article today that quoted a very well respected virologist (Dr. Adrian Gibbs) who said that in his opionion, this virus that was causing the epidemic was clearly made in a lab, (possibly even in vaccine manufacturing), and did not occur naturally. Therefore, there are obviously other virologists out there with very different opinions than Dr. Niman.

You only quote to the sources that serve your argument. To be in a true debate, you must also be willing to debate the arguments that the other side throws out, which you refuse to do. You don't debate the facts....you ignore them yourself. Therefore, you're accusing me of doing exactly what you're doing.

So, if you want to debate, I'll debate. But you must rebut my arguments in order to debate. So what do you have to say about the article I posted earlier today?

You clearly presented a challenge earlier in the thread for any of us to produce anything from any other virologists out there. I did. Adrian Gibbs is a top virologist.
So, please.. go ahead and rebut Dr. Gibbs' arguments, wtihout saying "Oh, the article was also carried on Jane Burgermeister's website, therefore it's not valid." Because that's not a rebuttal....that is nonsense. Other news outlets are also carrying the story besides hers, including Euronews and Bloomberg.com.

I'd like to you rebut the scientific evidence presented by Dr. Gibbs.




[edit on 25-11-2009 by nikiano]

reply to post by TruthxIsxInxThexMist


This line - "Thirty-six Canadians, including one little boy whose face swelled up like a balloon, suffered severe allergic reactions after vaccination" - instantly made me think of this horrifying story;

www.naturalnews.com...

Since you offered this argument on the other thread where I posted Gibb's article, I'll go ahead and paste your argument (and my re-rebuttal) here:

Originally posted by ecoparity
Gibb's paper was complete back in May, I wonder why he waited until now to finally publish it?

...

He submitted the paper for peer review back in May and the entire scientific community rejected it because of the way it was written.

[edit on 25-11-2009 by ecoparity]

His peers may have rejected it because of "the way it was written", but as it turns out....he was right. That's why it was finally released now.....because he is right. And you can only hide the truth for so long.

By the way, rejecting an scientific article for the "way it is written" is a common excuse that peer reviewed journals make when they don't want publish certain content! Oh, sorry, it's not written well.

Do you know how many ridiculous drug studies I've seen that show up in peer reviewed journals that aren't written well? Lots of them. But they have the money to advertise in the journal, so it gets printed. "Peer reviewed" journals should be called "peer advertised journals".

(And I know this, because I peer reviewed an article in a pharmacy journal once myself. It's all about advertising dollars...which is why I eventually quit my job as an education manager, but that's another story. Trust me, they are all biased about what they print in their journals.)

[edit on 25-11-2009 by nikiano]

delete

[edit on 25-11-2009 by really]

reply to post by nikiano


You are misrepresenting what he said:

www.dancewithshadows.com...

“It could be a mistake” that occurred at a vaccine production facility or the virus could have jumped from a pig to another mammal or a bird before reaching humans, Gibbs stated in an interview report by Bloomberg.

You neglected to mention that he only said "It could..." which is a far cry from definitely, and he also specified that there was a big OR involved.

So what he actually said doesn't correspond to what you're claiming he said. He was also very careful to point out that he was referring to a possible accidental evolution, not a neferarious plan. He also doesn't seem to have considered bird migrations as a factor in the evolution. But, after all, birds respect no borders and are perfectly free to mix Eurasian types with North American types. It merely is a question of the timing of the infections: if a wild bird gets infected too soon before migrating, it won't survive the trip, because it's ill, or won't transmit because it's recovered. Only if it is infected just at the right time will it bring a virus from one continental area to another. And sooner or later it was bound to happen.

Originally posted by TruthxIsxInxThexMist
From what i've just read on www.flucase.com it seems that this is a combined virus of bird flu & swine flu which is causing a much deadlier virus....

The WHO have also confirmed this on their website!!!

So i think it's time to stop the fearmongering with 'plane spraying' tactics.

No offense, but maybe you should work on your reading comprehension, or read more than just the headline.

The reuters article that Jane refers to atwww.reuters.com... says:

HONG KONG (Reuters) - China must be alert to any mutation or changes in the behavior of the H1N1 swine flu virus because the far deadlier H5N1 bird flu virus is endemic in the country, a leading Chinese disease expert said. Zhong Nanshan, director of the Guangzhou Institute of Respiratory Diseases in China's southern Guangdong province, said the presence of both viruses in China meant they could mix and become a monstrous hybrid -- a bug packed with strong killing power that can transmit efficiently among people.

Notice the part where they said that this reassortment hasn't happened yet, they are just keeping their eyes open.. Well, as far open as Chinese eyes get (bad pun).


On the other hand, we have a mutation that has been CONFIRMED, in Brazil, Norway, AND UKRAINE, a mutation is also the same as the protein in that location in the 1918 pandemic: D225G.

But no, it couldn't be a small mutation that's causing all these drastic effects, even though that same change was part of the 1918 virus. It must be some major reassortment that hasn't occured yet in a country that is practically sealed off from the rest of the world.. Yeah.. I love logic.

[edit on 25-11-2009 by seattletruth]

Originally posted by unicorn1
I find the report of 200 dead from the vaccine in Canada incredible.
Has anyone got any sources other than Euronews?

www.euronews.net...


[edit on 25-11-2009 by unicorn1]

CBC has a paragraph about it but says only one person has died:

Overall, there has been less than one case of severe allergic reaction for every 300,000 doses of vaccine given so far. The exact rate is 0.32 cases per 100,000 doses, Butler-Jones said.

For one lot of vaccine that was withdrawn in provinces last week, the rate was four per 100,000, which is still low, compared with the expected one reaction per 100,000 vaccinations, he said. Health Canada and the vaccine manufacturer, GlaxoSmithKline, are investigating.

There has been one death linked to anaphylaxis. It's not clear exactly what caused the death, which is also being investigated.

Butler-Jones and Aglukkaq credited Canada's intensive surveillance, down to the lot level, compared with other countries that are not so specific.

Source

That states that the rate of bad reactions to the vaccine was 4 in 100,000. Given that rate of allergic reactions to the vaccine the minimum number of people who would have needed to be given vaccine from that specific lot would be 5,000,000 (assuming everyone who had a bad reaction died).

The number of recalled vaccines is 172,000 so given those statistics there is no way 200 people could have died from a reaction to this vaccine. I would think it must be a mistake on the part of the writer, maybe he meant to put 2.

[edit on 25-11-2009 by Chris McGee]

Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by nikiano

 

You are misrepresenting what he said:

www.dancewithshadows.com...

“It could be a mistake” that occurred at a vaccine production facility or the virus could have jumped from a pig to another mammal or a bird before reaching humans, Gibbs stated in an interview report by Bloomberg.

You neglected to mention that he only said "It could..." which is a far cry from definitely, and he also specified that there was a big OR involved.

So what he actually said doesn't correspond to what you're claiming he said. He was also very careful to point out that he was referring to a possible accidental evolution, not a neferarious plan. He also doesn't seem to have considered bird migrations as a factor in the evolution. But, after all, birds respect no borders and are perfectly free to mix Eurasian types with North American types. It merely is a question of the timing of the infections: if a wild bird gets infected too soon before migrating, it won't survive the trip, because it's ill, or won't transmit because it's recovered. Only if it is infected just at the right time will it bring a virus from one continental area to another. And sooner or later it was bound to happen.

And that is exactly the "how it was written" part that his peers rejected. Scientific papers are not supposed to "hint" at conclusions in order to stir controversy, they are papers of facts, not "maybe this happened" when the evidence points elsewhere.

I knew about Gibb's paper back in April and May, it certainly wasn't a surprise and as you can see it had zero effect on my position in the meantime. I will be looking forward to see who is funding grants for Dr Gibbs in the months to come, there's something not quite right about this.

reply to post by unicorn1


we don`t know the exact number of dead up here in the frozen north as our government has decided that we have no need to know nor do we have the right to know they hide behind THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT and THE PRIVACY ACT OF MEDICINE.the number is growing as is the recall of the tainted serum is what they said the recall was in the million shots and it was country wide -who else got it ?is the question. and the little guy did die but we cant confirm about the bloating as our news is as whitewashed as yours is.

first, small reminder.

Ukraine Flu Outbreak: Virus Is a Mixture of H1N1 and Parainfluenza, Causes Cardiopulmonary Failure
Interview with Dr. Victor Bachinsky

www.globalresearch.ca...

now, current official reports from poland.

Today, she died due to respiratory failure, cardiopulmonary.

 

He had bilateral pneumonia and respiratory failure.

s-url.info...

now, if current deaths worldwide are caused by TB - proofs, please. not some 'maybe', 'perhaps'. scientific facts.

now, about me attacking Jane Sheepmeister - it's not 'for the sake of it'. it's because she's bending the truth as she sees fits her. yes, you read that right. SHE is bending the truth, not me or eco.

again, proof.
www.theflucase.com...

swine flu may have escaped from a laboratory

 

“It is important that the source of the new virus be found if we wish to avoid future pandemics rather than just trying to minimize the consequences after they have emerged,” Gibbs and colleagues John Armstrong and Jean Downie said in today’s eight- page study.

and how does that fit the title of the article?

TOP VIROLOGIST PUBLISHES EVIDENCE SWINE FLU VIRUS COMES FROM LAB

TOP? - ok, i won't discuss this, i guess he may be fine.
EVIDENCE? EVIDENCE THAT IT COMES FROM THE LAB?

let me ask you something.
WHERE IS THAT EVIDENCE SHE CLAIMS?
there is none. and you're saying what we do is fearmongering? what is it that she does then?

this is her list of 'evidence' against big pharma.
www.infowars.com...

read it before making claims she's 'legitimate'.
US banned export of some vaccines, like for bird flu, to certain countries, 'just in case', in the fear they could be used to make a biological weapon. so... what Jane did? she claimed that since US bans export of those vaccines, those have to be biological weapons.
as i've said, bending facts as it fits.

labvirus.wordpress.com...
that's also something you should read, especially some comments there.
yeah, she looks perfectly genuine for me. genuine fraud.

also, persons here claiming that i or ecoparity are disinfo/big pharma agents, seem to be trusting big pharma more than we do. we're constantly repeating that CDC and WHO stats are downplayed and that real numbers are much higher. everything related to H1N1 that is presented, is checked in laboratory. is that the same in case of seasonal flu? or TB? of course not. they want you to believe H1N1 is just a hype, till it's too late.

the main question is, who's spreading the disinfo? we? or maybe those that are trusting blindly Jane Burgermeister, repeating her 'facts' bended to fit her agenda, and quoting CDC and WHO stats as the only truth?

we've done our homework. we've done some research.
did you?

[edit on 25-11-2009 by jedi_hamster]

reply to post by nikiano


Nikiano. I think we have a couple of Nieman hacks on our hands who attribute to H1N1 every condition that's on the planet. Black Lung? Sure, a vicious strain thats mutated, or skipped species or recombined or is a case of cytokine storm. Hemmorhagic pneumonitis? H1N1, for sure. Cardiac failure? Ditto. I notice they never quote from Medline (PubMed) and only cherry pick from whatever else they can scrounge up. To them everythings a mutation, you know, Influenza is the only thing that can mutate. Rediculous.

reply to post by calohan


When you come up with a pubmed article that supports your claim that every Dr and scientist in the World has misdiagnosed your new "TB" deaths as swine flu let me know.

A lot of people die of TB each year, the majority of them in Africa where a new type of TB is something to be very concerned with. That's as far as it goes, however.

You're just a 3 day old account here to continue the endless chain of other pathogens certain people want to blame instead of swine flu.

First it was plague, marberg, ebola, various bacteria, etc, etc and now its Tuberculosis.

I can go out and get proof that TB kills people, lots of them. The issue is your claim that all the swine flu deaths are actually TB and that all the Drs and scientists are either lying to cover this up or are too incompetent to know how to test for it while you, armed with your computer know better.

Maybe you should write it up in a scientific paper and release it for peer review in the medical journals or work on contacting all those professionals and advise them of the errors they are making rather than wasting those efforts on a forum.

What's it going to be next, HIV? Anything but swine flu, right?