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Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

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posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 09:48 PM

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by wloy7

The only advice I can give anyone is that the coming week should be looked at as something to take advantage of by those lucky enough to get the early warning.

If a mutated form has truly hit the US, I'm very concerned about next week. The biggest travel day of the year, millions will be in airports, visiting family, etc, it could spread like wildfire very very very quickly.

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 10:04 PM
I think it's fairly obvious the new strain is here and everywhere else already.

This is where things get interesting. No one in Ukraine was vaccinated, people in the US, Canada, Europe have been and quite a few people have had the milder version of the virus already.

Let's hope it's enough to keep the virus from spreading too much and infecting too many people.

We're not "sunk" yet, we still have some hope.

Even the 1918 flu only killed 20 percent of the people who were infected, granted that turned out to be a large number and would be even larger now but the mathematical odds aren't as dire as they seem.

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 10:07 PM

Originally posted by nikiano

Originally posted by jedi_hamster
reply to post by nikiano

technically, it's a minor change, as far as i understand, and you should know it better as a person with medical background. in terms of importance, we were saying all the time it'll change it into far more deadly variant like that from 1918. so, as for me, it's just some random bashing about the words being used.

I should know better? Know better for what? Quoting the virologist that everybody now seems to be accepting as the expert in this issue?

I personally have said on this thread we should be wary of any expert opinon by a virologist who also owns his own vaccine company, but since everybody seems to be quoting him now, I thought I'd throw out a quote that everyone seems to have missed.

He is claiming that he's the expert virologist on this issue. I'm not a virologist...I'm a health care professional. I don't know what kind of change is a big change or a minor change in a virus. I'm only going by what this Dr. Niman says. And he says that "it signals a major change....and is cause for concern."

Once again, here is his quote:

"This jumping of the same polymorphisms form one background to another signals major changes, especially when the polymorphism "in play" is a receptor binding domain change, which is cause for concern."

I don't see anywhere where he said "technically, this is a minor change."

You are right on the money. That particular virologist who owns his own vaccine company is getting more and more rediculous as he hides behind his gene sequencing and language Einstein couldn't even understand. I don't give the benefit of the doubt to any of it.
Why not read what's below for a much more accurate and down to earth picture of what's really going on.

posted on Nov, 21 2009 @ 10:21 PM

Originally posted by jedi_hamster
as far as ukraine and poland goes, i think it's all underreported. VERY VERY HEAVILY.

about that report on theflucase - i don't know anyone from that city.
but well... there are sprayings over my city. 11:36pm right now, just came back from very tiny trip to one small shop, to buy some ciggies. of course, woman working there had to cough. i guess it doesn't matter. i am coughing since weeks if i remember correctly, and sometimes my lungs feel weird. some heaviness, some pain in chest, but rare. maybe it's H1N1 - if yes, catched long time ago. whatever it is, it's it's in mild stage. just keeps being in that stage for quite a while without letting go. hell knows what is it, but visiting doctor is pointless anyway - i would get antibiotics probably, or nothing that i don't have already. screw it. just took vitamin C (4 times daily dose).

Or maybe it's this:

Already and by March 12, 1999, the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, in response to requests from the National Red Cross Societies of four countries, including and near to the Ukraine, had issued a warning over the up and coming explosion of tuberculosis there in the form of an appeal.

The Ukraine , for some time, has been an epicenter of TB.

The Ukraine Ministry of Health had taken several initiatives to address the increasing TB crisis in Ukraine . Pilot project areas have been identified in combination with WHO to test the newer methodologies of which improved laboratory training would be the cornerstone. One pilot DOTS style project, backed by the World Bank and the Canadian charity HOPE, was introduced in Odessa .

TB was already spreading rapidly in the region in the late 1990‘s. In Russia , over 111,000 cases of TB were reported in 1996 -- double the number of cases reported in 1991. Reported cases are at about the same level in Belarus , Moldova and Ukraine .

Officially, and in March of 2004, some 670,000 Ukrainians were infected with tuberculosis, but the International Red Cross estimates the real figure, was, even at that time, three times higher.

WHO had already taken, In 1993, the unprecedented step of declaring tuberculosis to be a global emergency. In 1998, it estimated that by 2020 nearly one billion more people would be newly infected, 200 million would fall sick, and 70 million would die from TB if control measures were not strengthened. Such measures were never really implemented.

So recently when, recently, in KIEV — Eighty-six people have died in Ukraine from flu and respiratory infections, the health ministry said Wednesday, in an epidemic the World Health Organization said COULD be largely due to the A(H1N1) virus……….the emphasis should definitely be placed on the word “could“.

The ministry said that almost half a million cases of flu and acute respiratory infections had been recorded since mid-October in the country of 46 million, while 24,000 people have been hospitalised.

Some 148,000 cases have been recorded in the past 24 hours, it added.

The epidemic is concentrated in the west of the country which has borders with four European Union states but a growing number of cases are being reported in the capital Kiev .

Then we have this ridiculous statement, one of many, coming from WHO: "As the pandemic virus has rapidly become the dominant influenza strain worldwide, it can be assumed that most cases of influenza in Ukraine are caused by the H1N1 virus," the WHO said on Tuesday.

Lyudmila Mukharska, Ukraine 's deputy chief health officer, claims that authorities had confirmed that five of the dead had died of the “H1N1 virus“.

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 05:30 AM
reply to post by nikiano

I understand that your question is purely rhetorical... (
) But considering this thread has discussed such a wide range of diseases and conditions, including such things as various strains of flu in all their extremes, (bacterial) pneumonic plague, Ebola, Marburg and other horrors, could you suggest a specific one for this rhetorical or hypothetical CDC protocol situation?

I'm guessing that your question is not just related to seasonal flu or even "regular" swine flu, but I'm asking for clarification in all seriousness. No sarcasm or cynicism is intended.

Thank you,



posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 06:18 AM

If a mutated form has truly hit the US, I'm very concerned about next week. The biggest travel day of the year, millions will be in airports, visiting family, etc, it could spread like wildfire very very very quickly.

Four patients at Duke University Medical Center contracted a
mutated strain of the H1N1 virus that is resistant to the anti-viral
drug Tamiflu, which helps ease the duration and severity of illness.

Tamiflu resistance may actually be more widespread than doctors realize,
because most people who are infected with the H1N1 virus do not get
sick enough to get tested at their doctors' office,
or need the anti-viral drug.

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 07:01 AM
From The Coming Plague by Laurie Garrett, 1994
page 155
"the human immune system successfully overcame influenza infection, antibodies were made against two proteins that protruded from the outer envelope of the spherical virus: hemagglutin and neuraminidase. The influenze virus was otherwise well protected by a tough protein and fat armor made of two layers of viral enveloping: one layer was almost entirely composed of the human heart's nemesis, cholesterol. But the virus was caught in a Catch 22: it could not infect and destroy cells without the use of its neuraminidase and hemagglutinin proteins, yet these very compounds were what attracted the usually successful attack of the immune system.
... the efficiency of its hemagglutination ability, the functional abilities of its neuraminidase proteins, and the immunity of the animal or human host. The last factor was under host regulation.
... the hemagglutinin and neuraminidase proteins constituted antigens, or targets for the human immune system's antibodies. ... The antigens drift from their genetic blueprint... and render human antibodies useless. "

[edit on 22-11-2009 by JJay55]

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 07:17 AM
From The Coming Plague by Laurie Garrett, 1994
page 173
"Public Law 94-380... future new American vaccine campsigns... states: THE US shall be liable... for personal injury arising out of swine flu vaccine..." This would phrohibit pharmaceutical compaines from making "any reasonable profit" off Swine flue vaccines"

Page 188
"British study in 1976 failed to find the particular virus dangerous because the most accutely Swine Flu patients at Ft Dix were simultaneously infected with Haemophilus influenzae, a bacterial disease that can produce pneumonia. CDC studies in 1977 would show that the A/New Jersey virus replicated fairly slowly under labrotory conditions".

I guess this means that the tests aren't accurate and multiple infections make it confusing to isolate the cause.
The chapter goes on to say that prep for the next outbreak of swine flu would be to stockpile vaccine but they have no control to stop it and have a vague sense of unease.

[edit on 22-11-2009 by JJay55]

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 07:30 AM

Originally posted by JustMike
reply to post by nikiano

I understand that your question is purely rhetorical... (
) But considering this thread has discussed such a wide range of diseases and conditions, including such things as various strains of flu in all their extremes, (bacterial) pneumonic plague, Ebola, Marburg and other horrors, could you suggest a specific one for this rhetorical or hypothetical CDC protocol situation?

Oh, well, let's just say, hypothetically, I wonder what the CDC would do if they were called about a case that looked curiously like the very severe cases we are hearing about in the Ukraine....but all the lab tests came back negative for everything?

I should note, however, that if we were to get a hypothetical case such as this, it would most likely have to be all over the city by now, since our hospital is a very small. I seriously doubt that we would be the first hospital in the city to see such a case. Yet, strangely, when I check the our city's newspaper and the newspaper's website, here is no news whatsoever about any hypothetical cases at all in any other hospitals.

In fact, to be completely honest, there is no news at all in the newspapers or websites about any hypothetical swine flu pandemic in the city....or even in the country. All news about the swine flu has gone completely quiet....and I mean, completely quiet.

Very strange. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

Edit to add:

Karma might be biting me in the butt right now for being so hypothetical, because I started getting sick last night about 9pm (sore thoat, swollen neck glands, headache.)
I was out of Airborne (my favorite cold zapper) so I sucked on a couple of zinc lozenges before I went to bed last night. But, then I woke up at 4am with a terrible sore throat. Plus, some mild sneezing, runny nose, headache, coughing, etc...

I gargled with salt water and took a homeoapthic remedy about 4:30 am (natrum muriaticum, which covered my symptoms) and I feel fine now, except for a slight burning sensation in my lungs, like you might get if you have the beginnings of bronchitis, which wasn't there before.

I might have to take another remedy for that symptom later on, if it continues, but all my other symptoms are gone now. Which is good, because I have to go back into work today.

[edit on 22-11-2009 by nikiano]

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 07:43 AM
reply to post by nikiano

Hypothetically this would be considered panic control. If this were the case, and a very severe out break similar to the 1918-1919 flu, it will be very hard to hide the affects for long.
Hypothetically, of course.

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 07:44 AM
From The Coming Plague by Laurie Garrett, 1994
From notes page 645 (yes it's a big technical boring book)
Some of the cities named as megacities in 2000 with community health challenges mentioning urban poor ... are also the cities hit by terrorism, war and infectious disease post 2000.
New York, Mumbai, Mexico City, Baghdad and Karachi are already marked with destruction. Also on the list Tehran, LA, Rio, Buenos Aires, Beijing, Manila, Paris, Tokyo, and others in India.

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 08:11 AM
Another QUICK news article today since work is looming.

I'm a dog groomer, and yesterday an owner told me she had her dog vaccinated against Swine Flu! I stumbled across this article in attempts to learn more. Apparently it is H3N8 (not swine flu) and vets are telling owners it's a swine flu vaccine. Oddly enough, dogs are catching and dying from h1n1.

So who's susceptible to H3N8? Experts say 80 % of dogs will catch it, especially if they frequent dog parks, pet stores, or boarding kennels. "There are dogs who have died from this," said Dahl. "The biggest issue is just how fast it happens and that you can get much more severe symptoms and issues and that it can be fatal."

Unlike human flu, H3N8 is not seasonal, so dogs are vulnerable year–round, but so far, there is no shortage of the vaccine. Consumers can get the vaccine only through veterinarians and shelters.

Furthermore, there have been a handful of reports of animals contracting H1N1 swine flu from people, including a pig at the Minnesota State Fair. The new vaccine we just told you about would not treat H1N1. Researchers would have to come up with a separate vaccine for that.

Sounds like making more hype to me!

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 09:59 AM
So, lets sum up what we have right now:

1. normal seasonal flu
2. H1N1 swine flu
3. mutated H1N1 that causes deep lung bleeding
4. a different mutation of H1N1 that is resistant to Tamiflu
5. seasonal (common cold) Rhinovirus
6. a mutated Rhinovirus causing severe illness in Philadelphia area children
7. a global TB outbreak; including strains resistant to anti-biotics.
8. an un-nameable thing hypothetically causing a stir in Arizona

Have I left anything out? (don't want to talk about dog and bird flues)
Whats with our immune systems that so much virulent disease is so rampant?

Are we all going to die? I do not think so; although if these continue to work together, in tandem, or if the deep lung flu marries the Tamilflu resistant one, maybe.

Mother nature is preparing to take us down for being so destructive and ignorant of her ways. Only those who learn to work with her will survive.

Well, that's my take on it anyway.

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 10:42 AM
reply to post by nikiano

Okay, as we're only speaking hypothetically I'd guess that they follow the standard protocol they have. The problem is that they are not likely to tell us what that protocol really is, so I've written up a hypothetical and admittedly slightly cynical one, based in part on what seems to be happening in Ukraine and also in other countries including the US (both in reality and hypothetically).

Just an observation about the CDC -- The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention... (Note that the "Prevention" part doesn't even make it into their short title. Ain't that odd?) "Control" means "to manipulate, to affect the outcome, to have power over something to affect the way it behaves or what it can or cannot do". Definition my own, but you all follow what I mean. And of course "control" doesn't just apply to disease, but to controlling information about disease.

Okay, now on to my "hypothetical protocol":

Protocol for an Unknown and Highly Dangerous/Lethal Infectious Disease that has been Reported in the Community


This scenario for this protocol is most likely to occur in the case of a new, previously unclassified strain (or strains) of influenza (A) virus. It could also result from other infectious pathogens but the protocol would still follow the same standards.

1: (a) (i)Administrators of hospitals and other health care facilities in the affected area are immediately to be advised to provide the CDC with data for all cases. As is standard procedure, they should also be advised not to talk to the media and to refer any enquiries to the CDC, the WHO, or their regional representatives.

(ii) The CDC will inform the WHO of the actual situation so that they may follow the jointly-established protocol for such circumstances. There must be full co-operation between the CDC and the WHO to ensure that any statements issued will either concur, or will be so contradictory that the small percentage of the public who actually follow and take note of these statements will either be convinced of their accuracy (in the first case) or be confused and/or divided (in the second case).

(b) Where the public has been made aware of the existence of this new disease/pathogen via the mainstream media, the CDC will issue a statement along its standard lines, namely that

-- (i) the cases are still being reviewed and data from all tests have not yet been completed and fully assessed by experts, and
-- (ii) there is no cause for concern. In the USA alone, an average of 30,000 people die each year just from seasonal flu, and
-- (iii) people should take note of public health warnings and advice and obtain the recommended vaccinations.

( c) The mainstream media shall be advised via normal channels that in the interests of national security, any reports relating to the new pathogen must first be cleared with the appropriate authorities.

2: (a) (i)Where the number of cases is small and very localized, any notified cases of mortality are to be placed under broad or commonly-existing classifications such as Acute Respiratory Infection or Cardiac Disease.

(ii) (a) Where the number of cases has grown and the infection has spread, it will be necessary to enter some of the notified cases of mortality into a category for whatever pathogen will be chosen to most closely reflect the information related to the illness that is permitted to be made public. At the present time, this is (A) H1N1 "swine flu", but future statements will depend on whatever pathogen is being publicized at the time as the most common cause of all "unknown" deaths from infectious disease.

(ii) (b) The pathogen chosen should be one that historically has been shown to produce at least some of the new pathogen’s published symptoms.

(ii) ( c) Under no circumstances are any previously recorded cases of mortality to be transferred into the newly established category.

(ii) (d) If the number of deaths notified from the pathogen becomes excessive and could alarm the public, the statistics shall be re-set to zero to allow for “accurate and representative data gathering and analysis by independent parties” (or a phrase of similar effect).

(ii) (e) Where test results indicate a change in an Influenza (A) pathogen that has resulted in it becoming either more virulent or lethal (or both), details of the tests shall only be released after some delay and even then, not all the crucial technical details shall be made public. In this event, they should only be released after detailed discussions with the WHO. [Refer to 1 (a) (ii).]

(b) Any public claims by non-mainstream media, family members or representatives of deceased or infected persons that the disease is highly lethal, virulent and/or of unknown origin, or claims that health officials are “covering up the truth”, should be responded to by CDC. The response will deny the claims and reiterate the stated position as outlined in 1 (b) (i) and (ii). Reports or claims by non-mainstream media will be treated as per CDC standard protocol. In summary, these are “fringe” reports by alarmist radicals with their own agenda and have no basis in reality. Press officers should send releases about these “fringe” reports to our co-operating mainstream media outlets and request them to run the stories with the usual “X Files” type of music playing in the background.

(c) Under no circumstances shall the CDC issue any formal statement that implies it has no knowledge whatsoever of what the pathogen is or what its likely mortality or consequences may be -- irrespective of how much the CDC personnel actually know or do not know. The CDC should instead issue statements that the full details of the pathogen have not yet been determined, but that tests are still ongoing.

3: Samples shall be collected from a selection of both acutely ill and deceased patients and sent to CDC or WHO-authorized labs for detailed analysis, preservation and (where appropriate) replication. Where a health facility is unwilling to provide such samples readily, relevant law shall be invoked to enforce the collection and delivery of such samples. In the event of legal challenges that are at risk of becoming generally known to the public, refer to our standard protocol for collecting samples via our network of contacts in mortuaries.

4: (a) In the event that the infection is spreading uncontrollably and the number of deceased can no longer be denied or obscured, the CDC will issue a statement that a new version of the pathogen has been discovered and it is co-operating with the WHO, drug companies and governments to find a solution.

(b) The CDC will do all in its power to minimize the risk of exposure of CDC staff to the pathogen. If the situation reaches the CDC’s defined Worst Case Scenario -- namely a virulence nearing 100% and mortality of more than 20% -- the “Valley Forge” option will be offered to all staff.

[End of Hypothetical Protocol]



Edited to fix a coding glitch. And a typo.

[edit on 22/11/09 by JustMike]

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 10:45 AM

Originally posted by wayno

8. an un-nameable thing hypothetically causing a stir in Arizona

The un-nameable thing in Arizona could hypothetically be called hemorrhagic H1n1.

However, it is not causing a stir here, to be honest. (Except maybe with me.) My guess is that our doctors are also hypothetically seeing it at other hospitals, too.

But it is not being reported anywhere in the newspapers, nor is it being reported on the CDC website. In fact, if you go to the CDC website, you'll see that the H1N1 estimates page stopped getting updated on October 17th.

And of course, lest we forget, the "official swine flu emergency" went into effect on October 25th. So, yes, I would say that, yeah the CDC is holding back information and a media blackout is in effect.

And to be honest...that really pisses me off. We are coming up on the biggest holiday season of the year, and people should be warned that hemorrhagic H1N1 is now in the U.S. Some people might choose to not get on a plane full of people with virus swirling in the air for hours and hours.

It seems that even good old Dr. Niman isn't getting wind of any cases of hemorrhagic H1N1 in the United States. Either that, or he is being barred from reporting them. Or the CDC just isn't relaeasing a gosh-darned thing. Or perhaps he is on on the whole thing. Who knows....


By the way, I feel perfectly fine now. A bit of a headache, but it's almost gone.

Ahh...that's why I like homeoapthy so much. One dose, and you're usually done.

Edit to add:

I would highly highly recommend that if anyone is going to be on an airplane or a bus, or a train, etc... and traveling over Thanksgiving, that you take some airborne or echinacea or something to boost your immune system before you get into an enclosed area with hundreds of other people for hours and hours. Also, be sure to wash your hands frequently.

[edit on 22-11-2009 by nikiano]

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 10:50 AM

Originally posted by JJay55

Originally posted by blujay

We aren't playing Solitaire here, we are playing a sort of Chess game, and it's serious.

Exactly. And who are the players?
There are only a few powerful people who could put this scenerio into play. For the good of mankind of course, utilitarianism.

Us and 'them' are the players. 'They' being the dark ones, the Illuminati, cabal, elites... they are evil and wish to play out the end game as viciously as possible. Unfortunately for them, they are backed in to a corner and this is why they are pulling out all the stops in creating this ruthless 'pandemic.'

Amazing that such a small number of entities can wreak such havoc, isn't it? Fear is their agenda. Don't fear them or their flus and pneumonias. The fear will lower your resistance and letting the thoughts of this in will also open such timeline realities to possible fruition. It's the only way to fight this, see it for what it really is, then turn away. ... and of course, take your Vit D, C, Neem Oil, garlic, onions, Silver!

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 11:41 AM

(ii). Reports or claims by non-mainstream media will be treated as per CDC standard protocol. In summary, these are “fringe” reports by alarmist radicals with their own agenda and have no basis in reality. Press officers should send releases about these “fringe” reports to our co-operating mainstream media outlets and request them to run the stories with the usual “X Files” type of music playing in the background.

[edit on 22/11/09 by JustMike]

Thanks, Mike, for giving me my chuckle of the day.

Edit to add:

Is anyone seeing ANYTHING about hemorrhagic H1N1 anywhere in the United States right now, on any kind of news whatsoever? Or even about any active cases of flu right now?

I just did a quick check of all the major news websites, and nothing. Nada. Zilch. Zippo. Big fat zero. All quiet. Even if you go to the health pages on,, etc....there is nothing about the worldwide epidemic.
For God's sake...they're talking about psoroiasis on!!

You know, those 4 cases in North Carolina that they were talking about....makes me wonder....

[edit on 22-11-2009 by nikiano]

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 11:54 AM
reply to post by nikiano


Francisella tularensis subsp. novicida isolated from a human in Arizona

Francisella tularensis is the etiologic agent of tularemia and is classified as a select agent by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Currently four known subspecies of F. tularensis that differ in virulence and geographical distribution are recognized:tularensis (type A), holarctica (type B), mediasiatica, and novicida. Because of the Select Agent status and differences in virulence and geographical location, the molecular analysis of any clinical case of tularemia is of particular interest. We analyzed an unusual Francisella clinical isolate from a human infection in Arizona using multiple DNA-based approaches.

Tularemia is an incapacitating disease that presents in two main forms: pneumonic or ulceroglandular. The causative agent is the bacterium Francisella tularensis. Without antibiotic treatment, death occurs in 30%-60% of victims with the pneumonic form [1]. Because of this high mortality and its low infectious dose, F. tularensis was historically targeted for biological weapons development by the governments of the United States, Japan, and the former Soviet Union [1]. As a result, it is currently classified as a Category A Select Agent by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Small animals (e.g., lagomorphs and rodents) may serve as hosts for F. tularensis and arthropods can serve as biological vectors for transmission. Although humans commonly acquire the infection through insect bites or handling of infected tissue, direct contact with environments where F. tularensis persists can comprise another source of infection

This is the only thing I can find from Arizona that seems interesting. These studies were done from a case in 2006 but the reports were just recently released.

Ialso don't see much on CIDRAP about it.

[edit on 22-11-2009 by JBA2848]

posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 01:17 PM
reply to post by nikiano

Thanks for your comments. It's true, though -- the way the msm handles some stories by setting the tone with music and so forth. I abhor these production tricks but unfortunately it seems a lot of people don't even realize that they are used to sway the emotions and/or opinions of the viewers.

About hemorrhagic H1N1 in the USA: nope, not been able to find anything. Just "regular" swine flu stories.

Not a lot coming out of Ukraine now, either. And even locally (ie where I live), it's all pretty low profile. Yes, they talk of the growing epidemic here -- it's still regionalized rather than national -- but aside from mentioning the figures and saying that vaccinations will start shortly, they're not saying much.

As for Tamiflu, the govt here has made it necessary to get a prescription for it. Over-the-counter is simply not allowed. And doctors can only issue a scrip if the patient has already tested positive for flu. But the trouble is, Tamiflu works best very early in an infection, so by the time the test results come back it's a bit late to administer it.

In other words, it looks like they don't want us to have Tamiflu.

Just by the way, I saw an item on a German satellite news channel last night that in Norway, they are getting reports of patients with Tamiflu-resistant swine flu.

Hellmutt or any other Scandinavian based members: can you please check this out in the local media?


posted on Nov, 22 2009 @ 01:29 PM
I wonder how far-reaching, both geographically and through the years, the effects of Chernobyl are in Ukraine and on its population. Wonder if that might not have done some lasting damage to immune systems and chromosomes that might not be influencing some of what we're seeing here. A stretch? Maybe.

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