Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

Originally posted by nikiano

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by Cadbury

 

Well we each get to decide who we find credible. Thats everyone's right. I personally don't believe anything coming from the Ukraine govt after all the contradictions and political gesturing and infighting.

Until a credible virologist or or the WHO confirms it I'm not buying the new three virus theory. That's not to say it's impossible.

At least the WHO publishes the work so it can be verified. That doesn't rule out all weirdness on their part but its better than no methodology for review.

See my post above with an article from preventdisease.com, referencing Dr. Lau, an infectious disease expert, who believes the WHO is deceiving the world, deliberately.

By the way, Eco, just curious....what do you do for a living?

[edit on 5-11-2009 by nikiano]

Of course the WHO is deceiving the public. We've all known that since Mexico. The only saving grace we have is that they have to publish findings and the genetic samples are shared with outside researchers for analysis. They can fudge the press reports and casualty numbers but they really can't engage in much fraud when it comes to the virus and analysis
of it.

E Europe isn't a third World region - they have excellent Universities and some of the best medical researchers in the World. At least one of them is testing and performing analysis even if its on the side.

That's why hanging out w/ virologist is the best way to get info on this subject. They gossip like nurses and will do genetic assays on their own time for fun.

I don't mean this rudely but what I or anyone else does doesn't matter for purposes of a discussion board. Not unless we try to purport to have professional knowledge on the subject as part of the discussion. I'm not claiming any such thing.

Originally posted by ecoparity

Until a credible virologist or or the WHO confirms it I'm not buying the new three virus theory. That's not to say it's impossible.

At least the WHO publishes the work so it can be verified. That doesn't rule out all weirdness on their part but its better than no methodology for review.

Well! I wished I could say that I agree, but after all lies and suspicious behaviour from WHO this last 6 months - and the strange change of the pandemic definition to suit their aganda during the Mexico outbreak! - how the heck can you blindly put your trust with them?

More than half of Big Pharma's top mafia people and top-scientists are members of the board at WHO! - and they have proved to us recently that they have an very unethic and corrupt agenda to fill!

The WHO is now 'La Cosa Nostra' of Big Pharma & henchmen of the NWO - unfortunately!

Originally posted by ecoparity
The WHO hasn't released the official report yet. Earlier quotes about a new strain were attributed to politicians. If the local WHO official really did say that and is correct we may just have found out there has been a mutation before the official report comes out.

You will not comment on the figures in the Kyiv Post article? I wasn't even talking about a new strain in the post you replied to, I was talking about the apparent results claiming that less than half of samples tested were positive for H1N1, which is in direct contradiction to the claims of the article you quoted.

WHO did not test all the samples is what the virology community says.

Where does the virology community say this?

Feel free to check the WHO website if you think update 2 is out and let's refrain from personal attacks and stick to the data.

[edit on 5-11-2009 by ecoparity]

I have checked and I know that it's not. That's not at all what I was saying. I asked you why, if WHO publish everything, is the Kyiv Post having to publish their Mill Hill results for them (if those results are accurate)? I'm not trying to "personally attack you" and every post I've made in this thread has been well within the site terms and conditions. Nor am I trying to make this about you and I. I'm trying to stick to the figures and I asked you legitimate questions about them and all I'm getting is very obvious deflection.

Would you now care to answer the questions I initially asked you, please?

reply to post by martin3030

Interfax is a big agency and in various regions is often used as a primary source by local-based media, much the same as AP/Reuters are in the west. Could be that they had access to a WHO official, in which case (as eco said), this could be first knowledge of the report before it becomes official. Could even be a deliberate leak.

For the time being though we probably should take these media reports with a grain of salt and see if the official one coincides.

Just my perspective and in no way meant as a criticism of your own remarks.

Regards,

Mike

PS: For all who are interested, I sent a text message to asen about 1 hr 20 mins ago to see if he's made his plane. He hasn't replied yet. I also checked the airport info and his flight has not left yet, so it's running late. But it's still scheduled for takeoff, as are a couple of other flights that also are running late.

I'll let you all know if he makes contact.

Mike

[edit on 5/11/09 by JustMike]

reply to post by Cadbury


I'm not deflecting anything and you're obviously trying to pick a fight so why don't you go find your own answers? You certainly don't need my help.

And to answer your question - The WHO does have to publish results, why they haven't yet isn't really my "issue" to explain. Why don't you ask them?

The same goes for the local official making the quote he's said to have made. According to Dr Niman two of the strains he mentions aren't even present in the region. (There are no test results anywhere from anyone released showing them as being there).

I have no way of knowing if that's correct or if the local WHO official really said that or if he knows what he's talking about. That's why I'm waiting for the official report. We won't know for sure until then no matter what anyone says or doesn't say.

[edit on 5-11-2009 by ecoparity]

Originally posted by Chevalerous

Originally posted by ecoparity

Until a credible virologist or or the WHO confirms it I'm not buying the new three virus theory. That's not to say it's impossible.

At least the WHO publishes the work so it can be verified. That doesn't rule out all weirdness on their part but its better than no methodology for review.

Well! I wished I could say that I agree, but after all lies and suspicious behaviour from WHO this last 6 months - and the strange change of the pandemic definition to suit their aganda during the Mexico outbreak! - how the heck can you blindly put your trust with them?

More than half of Big Pharma's top mafia people and top-scientists are members of the board at WHO! - and they have proved to us recently that they have an very unethic and corrupt agenda to fill!

The WHO is now 'La Cosa Nostra' of Big Pharma & henchmen of the NWO - unfortunately!

You must have missed my post just above yours. I had to edit this as it looks like we both posted at the same time.....



[edit on 5-11-2009 by ecoparity]

I think the main question we should be asking is:

If 15 of the samples sent to London showed H1N1, what did the other 21 samples from London show?

Were they inconclusive? Were they incomplete? Were the results hidden?


[edit on 5-11-2009 by nikiano]

Of course the WHO is deceiving the public. We've all known that since Mexico. The only saving grace we have is that they have to publish findings and the genetic samples are shared with outside researchers for analysis. They can fudge the press reports and casualty numbers but they really can't engage in much fraud when it comes to the virus and analysis
of it.

----

I don't mean this rudely but what I or anyone else does doesn't matter for purposes of a discussion board. Not unless we try to purport to have professional knowledge on the subject as part of the discussion. I'm not claiming any such thing.

Eco,

And I don't mean this rudely at all, either, but I guess I just don't understand your logic. Maybe you could explain it to me. You keep adamantly insisting that you won't believe it's anything else other than H1N1 until you see the WHO declare that it is something else besides H1N1. But, then you admit that the WHO is deceiving people, and has been since Mexico.

So....if you know that the WHO is deceiving us....why do you require that the WHO say that it is something else besides H1N1 that is infecting people, before you will consider the possibility? Why trust a bad source?

Also, it is kind of silly to wait from an official report from another country's official government, since most countries take their reports and directions directly from the WHO in a pandemic situation...so most countries won't report anything other than what the WHO reports. So, if the WHO is reporting false information, then other countries will also report false information. Except maybe the country that is in the middle of it all....the Ukraine.... but you don't believe any word coming out of the Ukrainian government, either.

Waiting for an official report from the WHO is akin to the world not believing that cigarettes cause cancer just because the tobacco companies refused to admit that they caused cancer until decades later.....many decades after the fact that they actually KNEW they caused cancer. If we wait for the WHO to say that it's not H1N1, it could be a long time...just like it was a long time before the tobacco companies admitted that cigarettes caused cancer.

So...the reason I asked who you worked for was because to me, you seem to be illogical in trusting the WHO, and still insist on official verification from the WHO, when you admit WHO has been deceptive since Mexico.

So, I was just curious about what you did for a living....because when I read drug studies that seem to come to questionable conclusions, I always ask "Who was this study funded by?" So, me asking you what you do for a living is kind of like me asking: "Who funded this study?" That's all.




[edit on 5-11-2009 by nikiano]

reply to post by JustMike


I hope he's still healthy. At least he'll be somewhere with meds and a hospital with all the necessary equipment and hopefully less patients in need of help.

Let's just stick with hoping he's OK.

I was thinking he should have split on day one when this whole thing went "live" but the virus can incubate for two weeks before you start feeling anything. It makes me want to buy some of the portable test kits online reading that.....

Thanks for keeping the link open, tell him I said he made the right decision when you talk to him, please.

reply to post by squiz


Everyone in the MSM is so sure that it is just H1N1 going around, but you have to ask yourself why then are governments doing so many practices on fighting pneumonic plague?

Pneumonic plague obviously has to be a real concern. There has to be a real potential for this kind of terrorist attack.

I wonder if that is not in fact what has happened in Ukraine. Now who would have carried out such an attack, and why, is probably an issue for another thread.

Originally posted by ecoparity

You must have missed my post just above yours. I had to edit this as it looks like we both posted at the same time.....

Yes! my phone was ringing and I was slow to post so I missed your post above mine! - Sorry mate!

reply to post by wayno


Hi Wayno,
I think most of the previous mentions of Pneumonic Plague in the thread have already been identified as mis-translations of "viral pneumonia", and "plague-like" symptoms.

The current outbreak in Ukraine does seem to be viral in nature, (pneumonic plague is bacteriological, caused by Y.Pestis bacteria)

Hope this helps?

regards,
G

reply to post by nikiano


I've already explained that. To expand on that previous post the WHO isn't the end of the line for answers at all. I'll be looking for confirmation from the independent virologist out there like Dr Niman who audit their work.

There's things they can lie about and others they can't. I believe they fudge the numbers in order to prevent global panic and damage to economies - thats what their real purpose is according to the charter - to preserve World trade in matters where it is affected by health.

The numbers they lie about come from local sources who usually publish those stats. Some countries are better than others for that. Because we can see the raw numbers people like Dr Niman can chart the real stats and see exactly where and how the WHO fudged them.

As far as analysis of the virus - they go in and take 31 samples from all across the country. Then they take 15 of those and do genetic work ups on them. Part of that work up is seeing what virus the sample is.

In this case, all 15 of those samples came out as H1N1.

The group in London uploads the genetic profiles on a public server all the virologists and researchers and even home genetic hobbyist can access.

So, even if they were to lie about the analysis we have all these other researchers performing analysis of their own. If there's a discrepancy it ends up on the internet. This is how the Australian Dr wrote his paper claiming the virus came from a lab back in May.

Now in addition to all the WHO material there are local researchers in every nation who take samples and do the same thing without the WHO ever having anything to do with it.

Do you see? If the WHO tries something funny with the analysis we'll find out. They can't control access to patients and blood everywhere in the World and not every researcher in the World is going to play along with a lie.

So, even though they lie and are corrupt it's a waste of time for them to lie about the virus data. I can be reasonable certain that data will be accurate. I still check with these outside researchers to be safe bu if they say "mutation" it's very likely true. Same with "no mutation" if that's what they report.

Now, the reports they make about number of dead and infected? I check those against the local reports to see how far off they are. Every time. I've already learned they will lie about that and then they will pressure the locals to change their results. So far the original stats have been attainable before that happens in almost every nation.

[edit on 5-11-2009 by ecoparity]

I think it's interesting to see that London says that 15 of 31 samples are conclusive for H1N1, but doesn't say what the majority of the samples (21) show. Why? Because basically, we only got half of a lab report back.

Whenever a lab is sent multiple samples, if they can't accurately figure out what's in them, it will say: results inconclusive or "no growth to date", or something like that. Or, if the results are still pending, it will say "results pending."

I did a search on google to see if London released the results of the other 21 samples (i.e. pending or inconclusive or no growth to date), and so far, nothing.

Physicians at the hospital would get very angry if they sent 5 samples to the lab and only got 2 back, with no other word about the other 3 samples. Yet nobody is asking what about the other 21 samples? What did they show?

So basically, it seems like what has been reported in the news is only half of a lab report. Most people in the healthcare field will recognize this is only a "partial report", but most others will not.

Once again, I think this is a media blackout.

[edit on 5-11-2009 by nikiano]

reply to post by ecoparity

Thanks for your comments. I'm hoping he is feeling medically okay and that the symptoms he described yesterday did not necessarily indicate anything serious.

Asen's flight still hasn't taken off yet as far as I can determine. He also hasn't replied to my last text message but if he's already on board the plane he would likely not be allowed to use his phone. Whenever I've flown that has been the general rule at least, and that applied even when we were just sitting on the tarmac.

Importantly, there is no notice I've found that the airport has suspended operations and up to around three hours ago they were departing on time. Even now, there is no notice of cancellations. Just delays. This could be for all sorts of operational reasons, perhaps even just due to a shortage of key personnel in the tower or ground staff, for example. It's logical that with about 10% of Lviv infected (about 100,000 out of around 1 million people) some of them would be airport staff.

Fingers crossed he'll be out of there soon.

Note to mods: we are discussing the OP's own situation so I hope that it can be accepted as relevant to this thread. Also, many of us are concerned for his well-being. Thank you.

Mike

Greetings from Lviv,

from where its all started

The rate of mrtality from "flu like symptoms" is not higher than in previous years, 96 as for today in whole UKraine.

BUT 90% from VIRAL PNEUMONIA.

My doctor (employee) was just 5 min ago on the phone with head of intensive care department of so called "infection hospital".

3 departments where rearranged to become intensive care,
filled up with pneimonia cases.
ONLY!!!!! with people between 20 and 45. Very strange.

Previous years such intensive care departments were filled up with old people, boms, etc.

One of the guys I new has died yesterday. Age 30 - sales director at soft drink company.

I must say, I dont wear a mask, and not in the panic,
but this is really CRAP.

Doctors dont know what to do!!!

THough offcials say Lviv region has changed the rising level trend to the decline. Doctors from emergency cars also say they getting less calls.

Good and strong health to everyone!!!

[edit on 5-11-2009 by former_ussr]

Originally posted by nikiano
I think it's interesting to see that London says that 15 of 31 samples are conclusive for H1N1, but doesn't say what the majority of the samples (21) show. Why? Because basically, we only got half of a lab report back.

Whenever a lab is sent multiple samples, if they can't accurately figure out what's in them, it will say: results inconclusive or "no growth to date", or something like that. Or, if the results are still pending, it will say "results pending."

Just a slight correction on your maths, here; If there were 31 samples, only 16 samples would be remaining after the 15 confirmed as H1N1.

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by nikiano

 

people like Dr Niman can chart the real stats and see exactly where and how the WHO fudged them.
[edit on 5-11-2009 by ecoparity]

Dr. Niman might be a virologist, but he is also the head of a drug company, Recombinomics. Recombinomics makes vaccines. Dr. Niman also holds patents.

Like I said before, when analyzing scientific studies and information in the health care field, we always ask: "Who funds this study?"

I did a google search on Dr. Niman (like an idiot, I didn't do it before), and I found this:

Dr. Niman founded a drug company....Recombinomics. Recombinomics makes vaccines.

Here is Dr. Niman's bio from the Recombinomics website:

www.recombinomics.com...

Here is their work on vaccine development from the Recombinomics website:

Vaccine Development

Monitoring of viral recombination can be used to enhance vaccine development. Viruses use recombination to escape immunological or drug targeting.

The recombination follows well defined rules which can be used to monitor the efficacy of new or modified vaccines. The rules can also be used to predict new variants, so vaccines can be developed before viruses emerge. The rules of recombination appear to apply to all viruses so viral vaccine strategies can be broadly applied.

Can you cite a virologist that isn't in the drug industry? Information coming out of drug companies is notoriously biased.

Information coming out of a pandemic from a virologist who founded his own vaccine manufacturing company should be HIGHLY suspect.

I don't trust what any virologist who owns his own vaccine drug manufacturing company says about the current pandemic. I don't care that he was educated at Harvard....once you start your own company, the scientific literature stops becoming academic, and it is now "industrial." Therefore, it is now highly suspect, and potentially biased.




[edit on 5-11-2009 by nikiano]

reply to post by nikiano


If 15 of the samples all show H1N1 the others will as well. The purpose isn't to test all the samples, they grab a certain number randomly. That's within the scientific method. If the work ups on 15 of them all match then the existence of a mutation or not will definitely show up. Even Dr Niman has no issue with the testing method (and he's been the frontman on exposing the WHO and making sure accurate data gets out there).

The other samples are probably stored in case something comes up where they need to add more samples into the pool for whatever reason. It's completely unnecessary to test all of them to get accurate results.

Think about it, even if they test them all then you could ask why they didn't take 50 samples or 100 or 1000. They know what they need to do in order to obtain accuracy. Ukraine is setting up its own testing lab in addition to the hospitals and universities - theres no point in trying to lie about the virus itself. If the testing methods were bad we'd hear about it from numerous outside researchers.

[edit on 5-11-2009 by ecoparity]

[edit on 5-11-2009 by ecoparity]

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by nikiano

 

Then they take 15 of those and do genetic work ups on them. [edit on 5-11-2009 by ecoparity]

How do you know that? The only thing I read is that 15 where confirmed as H1N1, not that they only looked at 15 samples. So how do you know that those other samples haven't been tested (yet).