Sarah Palin - Death Panel is Back In!!! , page 3

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reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 01:11 PM by yeahright

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

reply to post by centurion1211

My mod status is irrelevant in this discussion, I'm participating as a member, just for clarification.

I've thought about this in depth. Quite a bit, actually. What I see in this particular aspect is that the government is willing to extend a benefit to those who wish to take advantage of it. What concerns me, is that this whole "death panel" issue is a smokescreen. I think it's a non-factor for the reasons I've already given. I'm sure there's much wrong with this bill, and if the best Sarah Palin can do is come out with this Death Panel garbage, she's doing a poor job of vetting the information.

The health care system is broken, I don't know anyone who rationally disputes that. The health insurers are taking all of us to the cleaners and they're running the show. Who has more to gain by a theoretical "death panel", the for-profit health care folks, or the government?

Who's in bed with the health insurers? Who's willing to fight with any means necessary to see that any "reform" that gets passed is window dressing rather than anything substantive that might actually help somebody? Where are you seeing anything that says the government wants to be involved in end of life decisions other than being willing to pay for requested counseling?

You're having your chain yanked. And as usual, the people with the embedded power are couching the debate using fear, uncertainty, and doubt, to obfuscate the issues. (Not you, I'm talking about the current infrastructure with a huge financial stake).

There are problems with the proposed bills, for sure. Almost all major legislation ends up being a mishmash of compromise where no one gets exactly what they want. My fear is while we're focusing on a non-issue, something else is left unaddressed. Sure, they'll wave their hands around and backslap each other for eradicating the dreaded "death panels" while they're raping you somewhere else. It's a sleight of hand, 3 card monte game.

But that's just my opinion as a member and citizen, completely independent of any "official" title bestowed upon me by this website.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 01:26 PM by centurion1211

Originally posted by maybereal11

Originally posted by centurion1211

But here's the part all "government healthers" (my new label) fail to see.

Great label!! I have been hoping someone would come along with some snarky equivalent to "birthers", ya know some way to push peoples buttons, obfuscate the issues and further degrade the debate!

It should not be done by the government!

Is it being "done by government" or just paid for by government?
Do they stick their nose in your hospital room? Or do you need to request it...while not worrying about adding to bills you might leave behind?

Too many opportunities for slow-motion government bureaucrats that don't give a rats a$$ about you to make life or death decisions for you.

I am confused...where does it say the government will make life and death decisions for you?

To be fair, please show us a post where you've also complained about the birther label.

The bills I've seen would do just that, effectively place a government bureaucrat in your hospital room and/or doctors office to decide the care you will receive.

And yes, I can see that you and others here are confused. Again, try thinking about this subject in depth - which means going beyond the government supplied talking points.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 01:29 PM by centurion1211

reply to post by yeahright

I have never said that the healthcare system is not broken, or does not need reform. What I have said, however, is that BAD healthcare legislation is NOT better than no healthcare legislation. You do not fix something by making it worse, and I truly believe that the bills I've seen would only make it worse.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 01:34 PM by centurion1211

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by centurion1211
Palin wants government out of the decision. She wants only you and your family involved.

Well, I don't care what SHE wants for ME. That's MY decision, not hers. I wouldn't trust her to take care of my pet rock, let alone stick her nose into my health care.

Either you once again failed to read and/or comprehend what I wrote. or this is one of the few times we agree on something.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 01:35 PM by buddhasystem

Originally posted by centurion1211
Nice deflection attempt.

We're talking about end of life decisions, which shouldn't be decided or even influenced by the government.

Who is deflecting what? You are saying here the government WANTS TO DECIDE for you which you know full well is not the case. Why do you post something that is obviously not true??? Where does govt influence me? By your "logic", the US flags posted on govt buildings are designed to "influence" my decision to support the US constitution. Bleh.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 01:52 PM by nixie_nox

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

You obviously have never dealth with senior family members, or someone with a terminal illness. And your statement is highly immature.

As someone who has personally seen several people to the end of life, for a while, you know your gonna die.

In fact, we had to watch them be kept alive because heaven forbid someone is allowed to die when they are ready. And they are crying that they want to go, but your not allowed to by law.

If all people didn't know when they were going to die, we would need hospice.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 01:53 PM by daddyroo45

Originally posted by Seiko
reply to post by Eurisko2012

No a politician telling you this is bad, when everyone realizes it as a necessity, is government being creepy.

This is a simple scare tactics. What's in the senate right now isn't even close to universal health care, so you don't have to worry about socialized medicine killing off the old just yet.

This attitude is what scares me. "when everyone realizes it as a necessity"
When the people realize personal responsibility is a necessity,and Governemntal control is a cancer upon personal choice and freedom in general. Why are so many people ready to hand over the reins to Government control? Ignorance or laziness? To self absorbed to chart their own future?

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 01:56 PM by nixie_nox

reply to post by marg6043

I tell you one thing, watching someone die, over months and then weeks, was an eye opening process. Thank heavens for hospice, becuase they were able to give us information and tell us what is going to happen. If not, we were scared and clueless. Those people have it down pat. They were able to some in, look at gma, and say, 2 days. The body AND mind goes through a long process. The mind starts doing funny things. Then shuts down. The body starts shutting down. And the most startling part of all...is how long it can take. Even though the person no longer even responds, they still said it can take weeks.

People need to be informed of is going to happen. Of what the process is. Of what you need to do afterwards.

For instance, we found it strange that when gma died. Hospise was just like, call us when your ready. There was no immediate callf or an ambulance or anything. It was kind of quiet, and they come get them when we call them.

[edit on 30-10-2009 by nixie_nox]

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 01:57 PM by yeahright

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

reply to post by centurion1211

Where we're failing to hook up is in missing connection on this one piece in the legislation. I don't think we're going to get the be all and end all result, either. What I do think is that the Republicans are beating this "death panel" crap like it matters. It's a straw man. That piece of legislation where the government will pay for end of life counseling will get removed as some sort of bargaining chip, which helps no one, then the Republicans will hold a rally like they accomplished something. "Ohh Sarah, you saved the old people from being abandoned on an ice floe".

Meanwhile, the devil is somewhere in the real details. Grandpa's counseling, which he could desperately use and wants won't get paid for, and we'll be screwed somewhere else as well.

The flippin' insurance companies are already wagging the dog, with no right to recourse.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 02:07 PM by ImaginaryReality1984

reply to post by Eurisko2012

Have you ever had a friend or family member who has a terminal illness and is perfectly sure they're going to die? I have and the government paid counsellors here in the UK are helping my father through lots of the tough bits. Helping him write a will that won't cause conflict and things like that. You can't imagine how stressful such a thing can be without help and a professional is sometimes better than family for some parts of the process.

Death panels, what nonsense. You make it sound like someone walks in the room with a syringe of morphine and sends the patient off to sleep.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 02:12 PM by Eurisko2012

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

This is a USA problem.
We do not want to pay someone government money to give
us end of life counseling. Our family circle can discuss and
solve these issues on our own. We don't want someone
sticking their nose in our hospital room and giving us a
Death Panel lecture.

[edit on 30-10-2009 by Eurisko2012]

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 02:15 PM by Eurisko2012

reply to post by daddyroo45

I think they like the "idea" of "Free Health Care".
Canada has it. They want it down here.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 03:46 PM by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Eurisko2012
This is a USA problem.
We do not want to pay someone government money to give
us end of life counseling. Our family circle can discuss and
solve these issues on our own.

You do not speak for the USA.

Some people don't have a "family circle" to discuss these things with.
Speak for yourself.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 04:01 PM by shrike071

Originally posted by Eurisko2012
reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

This is a USA problem.
We do not want to pay someone government money to give
us end of life counseling. Our family circle can discuss and
solve these issues on our own. We don't want someone
sticking their nose in our hospital room and giving us a
Death Panel lecture.

[edit on 30-10-2009 by Eurisko2012]

And what of the people that can't afford any "independent counselors"? (Psst... they're usually called Lawyers, and they charge hundreds by the hour....) What about the people that are so grief-stricken that they don't even THINK to ask these questions, nor do they have anyone around to remind them of the questions that need answers?

What happens then?

I'll tell you what - and this is based in real-life experience: the grieving people get run-over by private companies (insurers, usually) and make decisions that are rash and poorly thought out, as well as not in their best interests.

Why is it that you, and others here, seem to think that if the Government does it, it's automatically BAD? Why does the Corporate world get a pass from you?

Ask yourself this - at the end of the line, SOMEONE will be asking you, or your family, some very hard questions. Do you want that person to be looking out for the best interests of their bottom line?

Is it the fact that "Government Money" is supposed to pay for this?

You're probably thrilled to accept "government money" in the form of Cash For Clunkers, or that nice stimulus check, or that $4,000 break on your home purchase, or that yearly mortgage interest deduction, and I bet your grandparents are THRILLED about the federal dollars invested in Medicare.

Is it the money here or the politics that's got you spun-up? I think we can all tell the answer to that question....

If the "counseling" has put the bee in your bonnet - I guess you don't want our solders to get PTSD counseling, our unemployed to get career counseling, or our poor to get life-skills counseling.

Here's a novel idea - if you don't want the E.O.L. counseling - don't use it.

[edit on 30-10-2009 by shrike071]

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 04:09 PM by shrike071

Originally posted by Eurisko2012
I think they like the "idea" of "Free Health Care".
Canada has it. They want it down here.

Surprise -

your American grandparents already have it!

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 04:27 PM by Rhetoric

originally posted by centurion1211

The bills I've seen would do just that, effectively place a government bureaucrat in your hospital room and/or doctors office to decide the care you will receive.

Please show us the language that says this, you could clear all this up in a second if you would just show that to us.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 04:28 PM by maybereal11

Originally posted by centurion1211

To be fair, please show us a post where you've also complained about the birther label.

Fair? I have not used derragotory terms to ridicule anyones political perspective. I even endeavor to refer to our former President as "President" Bush, despite the fact I loathed the man.

While you on the otherhand are pridefully eager to find new idiotic names to call people that have a different view or opinion than your own.
A mentality ill suited for a grade school play ground, let alone a political debate.

Just because Rush gets attention for being an idiot and deriding opposing views with inane name calling, doesn't mean you should follow his example. You are not 10 years old ...I shouldn't have to explain this to you...and frankly I used to respect your posts, not so much lately.

And yes, I can see that you and others here are confused. Again, try thinking about this subject in depth - which means going beyond the government supplied talking points.

Yes ...if you just "go beyond" what the bill actually says and use your imagination it will reveal the reality of the bill....hmmm what is wrong with that logic?

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 04:56 PM by Eurisko2012

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

You don't have a family?
How were you born?
Why do you want to be taken care of by the government?
The only thing the government does well is operate a
department of defense.
What ever happened to personal responsibility?
You can look to government if you want to.
I think government should be smaller not larger.
ObamaCare = Financial Disaster
Cap & Trade = Financial Disaster

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 04:56 PM by zlots331

Originally posted by OldDragger
reply to post by Eurisko2012

OH MY GOD! Voluntary counseling regarding end of life decisions!
Obama is a monster!
Wait, i typed that wrong.
Let's see...
Palin is an idiot! FOX lies for a living!
There that's what I meant.

I"m thinking about asking ATS if we can set up a new policy so we can trade in some of our "points" so we can give deserving people extra stars.

Thanks, you made my day.

Some people are soooo gullible. And it was Betsy McCauley (?) who started this whole "death panel" thing and she is now out of a job for being a tad too nutty after melting down on The Daily Show.

reply posted on 30-10-2009 @ 05:08 PM by shrike071