The Ancients Series | Part I: Sumerians, page 19
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reply posted on 18-11-2009 @ 05:11 PM by serbsta
reply to post by Knowledgeseeker5434


Yeah it is interesting.

I've read a lot of theories about this sudden rise in human 'ingenuity' if you will. One of the more interesting ones is the sudden rise in carbon levels around this period. Makes you wonder what caused it.


reply posted on 24-11-2009 @ 12:01 AM by YukaiHenjin
reply to post by Devino


If YHVH is "bad" does that mean that Saddam Hussein was actually the good guy, and the Americans are evil (or more likely deluded)? That's really something to think about. Another mystery is just who YHVH is meant to be. I think he's like a mix of Enlil and Enki.

Another interesting thing, En.ki was called called Aman.ki in Emesal (woman's tongue). I think this Aman meaning "Lord" in place of En might be related to Amon-Ra. Emesal is weird because the sound changes don't exactly correspond. It doesn't seem like "code" either. It's like a different dialect with different words. It doesn't look like Emesal came from Emegir or vice-versa, but that they came from the same source.

www.bibleorigins.net...
This site tries to explain that the Bible is based on Sumerian myth. It doesn't try to present either as factual, but as allegory and myth (it seems to be an atheist site). However, it has a lot of interesting analysis and information about Sumerian history and beliefs. I think a lot of this stuff is true or based on truth. Of course some things, like Enki's ejaculation filling the Tigris, are false, but I think the flood was real.


Enki's human servant, Adapa, is a baker of bread and fisherman of the nearby marshlands, who prepares these items as offerings to Enki in his shrine. While _in_ Eridu, Enki warns Adapa that when he is summoned to heaven by the god Anu, that he is to consume nothing offered him as it is "the food of death" and he will surely die. Adapa obeys Enki and when "the bread of life" and "water of life" are presented to him by Anu's servants, he refuses to eat, fearing he will die. In reality, this food will confer immortality on Adapa and through him ALL MANKIND. So man lost out on a chance to attain immortality by NOT eating the food of the gods. A number of scholars have suggested this motif is behind the biblical story of Adam and Eve being denied the privilege to eat a fruit giving them immortality by Yahweh-Elohim.


For the people who say that Enki was the good guy and Enlil was the bad guy, Enki was the one (in the original Sumerian myth) who urged the first humans not to eat the apple/bread. Anu was the one who wanted mankind to have eternal life. I think Enki and Enlil are both bad guys. Enki tricked man into not living forever, Enlil tried to destroy man with a flood. I don't think An ever did anything bad, though, right?

reply to post by PhyberDragon
You're partially right. In Egyptian and Semitic languages, vowels were not important, and were added based on how the word is used (noun, adjective, verb, tense, etc), and based on guttural sounds like 'Ayin and 'Alef. But Sumerian is not a Semitic language and not related to Akkadian, but Akkadian adopted thousands of Sumerian compound words because Sumerian, like Latin and Chinese, are very good at making compound words.

Scholars don't know if the word EA is Akkadian (the consonants hyy, meaning "life") or Sumerian (meaning "House of Water"). Sumerian uses very short words for things. If it's Akkadian, the only reason it has vowels written is because Sumerian has no gutturals or "y" or "w" sounds, and Akkadian used the Sumerian script.

Some people in this thread are comparing words like MAR-duk and MAR-s, but Mars is Latin and Marduk is Babylonian and represents Jupiter (Zeus), not Mars. His Akkadian name was AMAR.UTU (Sumerian for "Solar Calf"). The Semitic word Misr, referring to Egypt is also completely different. People can't just take parts of words like that unless it's the same etymology and the same or a related language. So people can say tele+vision=far+sight or EN.LIL=Lord+Wind or I.SEI.JIN=other+planet+person=alien, but not MARDUK=Mars+whatever.


reply posted on 24-11-2009 @ 06:15 AM by Devino
Originally posted by YukaiHenjin
If YHVH is "bad" does that mean that Saddam Hussein was actually the good guy, and the Americans are evil (or more likely deluded)? That's really something to think about. Another mystery is just who YHVH is meant to be. I think he's like a mix of Enlil and Enki.

Relatively speaking I think almost all governments and dictators are bad and very delusional. I also see unity in the myths of all religions. Personally I don't consider any man bad or 'evil' in the true sense no matter how hard they try, horrifically stupid yes but not bad.

YHVH, Yahweh, Elohim, Jehovah, God, the All or the One or what ever you wish to call the Divine creator is not bad, evil, dark nor cold. This is the source of the Divine Light, Warmth, Love and Creation (at least that's how I see it).

Something I find very interesting is the meaning behind the phrase, "the true word of God". This, I believe, is the origin of that which is considered to be "profane" or words that should not be spoken and maybe now cannot be spoken. I think this is a sound that Man can make but from what I understand it can also destroy the Earth and confuse the motions of the planets.

I think this Aman meaning "Lord" in place of En might be related to Amon-Ra.

Yes, this reminds me of the Egyptian god Amon-Ra, king of kings...or Jupiter. Amon representing Lord and Ra the all seeing eye and I wonder if this is what we are calling tribute to at the end of our prayers (Amen=Amon?). At any rate the word Amon has a connection to other Earthly things which I found to be interesting.
Several words derive from Amun via the Greek form, Ammon: ammonia and ammonite. The Romans called the ammonium chloride they collected from deposits near the Temple of Jupiter Amun in ancient Libya 'sal ammoniacus' (salt of Amun) because of proximity to the nearby temple.

Ammonia, as well as being the chemical, is a genus name in the foraminifera. Both these foraminiferans (shelled Protozoa) and ammonites (extinct shelled cephalopods) bear spiral shells resembling a ram's, and Ammon's, horns.

The regions of the hippocampus in the brain are called the cornu ammonis – literally "Amun's Horns", due to the horned appearance of the dark and light bands of cellular layers.
Source- Wiki

Now Cephalopods are very interesting creatures and they look alien in my opinion yet there are some interesting correlations here to the God Amon as well. Notice the shape of their heads, reminds me of the Pope's hat.
Ammonites from the Gandaki river in Nepal are known as saligrams, and are believed by Hindus to be a concrete manifestation of God or Vishnu.
Source- Wiki

Of course some things, like Enki's ejaculation filling the Tigris, are false, but I think the flood was real.

Unless of coarse this ejaculation was from a god (planet) and consisted of sea water.

I think Enki and Enlil are both bad guys. Enki tricked man into not living forever, Enlil tried to destroy man with a flood. I don't think An ever did anything bad, though, right?

I understand your point and I used to agree with this line of reason but since then I have seen (and now know of) something different. None of these gods in any of these myths are neither good nor bad any more than the Sun is good and a comet striking the Earth is bad. They are what they are, energy flows in only one direction.
I think of it as a path with two directions;
One direction is towards the infinite darkness with a seemingly infinite number of choices.
The other direction is towards the Divine Light or down the path of Understanding towards Truth.


reply posted on 24-11-2009 @ 10:12 PM by YukaiHenjin
Originally posted by Devino
Something I find very interesting is the meaning behind the phrase, "the true word of God". This, I believe, is the origin of that which is considered to be "profane" or words that should not be spoken and maybe now cannot be spoken. I think this is a sound that Man can make but from what I understand it can also destroy the Earth and confuse the motions of the planets.


I have heard that YHVH's full name has 72 Hebrew letters. It was written on a scroll in the breastplate of the Jewish High Priest, and only spoken once a year before the Ark of the Covenant to summon God. If anyone speaks this name or "true word of God" without the proper ceremonies and preparations, they will die.


Yes, this reminds me of the Egyptian god Amon-Ra, king of kings...or Jupiter. Amon representing Lord and Ra the all seeing eye and I wonder if this is what we are calling tribute to at the end of our prayers (Amen=Amon?). At any rate the word Amon has a connection to other Earthly things which I found to be interesting.


These Amon connections are very interesting. If "Amen" was first used after the Hebrews were in Egypt, then it could also be related. Since Amon-Ra is a sun god (Ra means sun in Egyption) and Aman-Ki is Enki, an Earth god (Ki means Earth in Sumerian), maybe the Emesal word "Aman" came from Egyptian. However, Enlil in Emesal is not called Aman-Lil as you would probably expect, but Mullil.


Now Cephalopods are very interesting creatures and they look alien in my opinion yet there are some interesting correlations here to the God Amon as well. Notice the shape of their heads, reminds me of the Pope's hat.


A type of Pope's hat called the mitre looks like an Egyptian crown, and the Egyptian crown is even sometimes called a mitre. The cephalopods do look alien. Some aliens have tentacles, so do cephalopods. The greys and other "stereotypical" aliens have big eyes like cephalopods too.


Unless of coarse this ejaculation was from a god (planet) and consisted of sea water.


I think it might be like you say. Enki is Lord of Earth, so he would represent Earth. An ejaculation of the Earth might mean a flood.

Here is the relevant quote:

From Enki and the World Order
After he had turned his gaze from there, after Father Enki had lifted his eyes across the Euphrates, he stood up full of lust like a rampant bull, lifted his penis, ejaculated and filled the Tigris with flowing water. He was like a wild cow mooing for its young in the wild grass, its scorpion-infested cow-pen. The Tigris …… at his side like a rampant bull. By lifting his penis, he brought a bridal gift. The Tigris rejoiced in its heart like a great wild bull, when it was born ……. It brought water, flowing water indeed: its wine will be sweet. It brought barley, mottled barley indeed: the people will eat it. It filled the E-kur, the house of Enlil, with all sorts of things. Enlil was delighted with Enki, and Nibru was glad. The lord put on the diadem as a sign of lordship, he put on the good crown as a sign of kingship, touching the ground on his left side. Plenty came forth out of the earth for him.

What is the significance of the cow pen being scorpion-infested? It might imply danger or evil in a place usually considered good. It says that this ejaculation of water "filled the E-kur." E.KUR means "Mountain House" and is usually called "the house of Enlil."

LIL also means phantom. Lilith was called Kisikil Lilake, or Maiden (KI.SIKIL) of (AK) Wind (LIL). Gilgamesh has the phrase "ab-ba-ni lil2-la2" means his (NI) father (ABBA) was ("A" makes an adjective) a phantom (LIL).

These have a lot of good information:
www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk... ETCSL
sumerian.org... Sumerian Lexicon
psd.museum.upenn.edu... Pennsylvania Sumerian Dictionary


reply posted on 24-11-2009 @ 10:41 PM by undo
reply to post by YukaiHenjin


72 letters?
wait, i think that's the number of members of the divine council.


reply posted on 25-11-2009 @ 07:22 PM by serbsta
Originally posted by Devino
I wonder if this is what we are calling tribute to at the end of our prayers (Amen=Amon?).


Interesting point there.

Amen, means 'let it be', or along those lines.

Remember also that Amun-Ra [Re] (the revealed deity of Amun) simply thought up thing's and they came into existence, he 'let things be' so to speak.

Thought i might throw in some brief thing's on the Trinity concept while we're at it:

The three gods are one yet the Egyptian elsewhere insists on the separate identity of each of the three". This unity in plurality is expressed in one text: "All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, whom none equals. He who hides his name as Amun, he appears to the face as Re, his body is Ptah".


-"Of God and Gods", Jan Assmann

The Church is so intuitive.

Originally posted by YukaiHenjin


I have heard that YHVH's full name has 72 Hebrew letters.


Any sources?

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by YukaiHenjin


72 letters?
wait, i think that's the number of members of the divine council.


Further sources please?

I found nothing.

Edit:

I don't think it has 72 letter's, i think you are talking about the 72 names of God.

-72 is also the number of books in the Catholic Bible.
-The number of hours Jesus was in the tomb.
-The original version of 'Revelations' had 72 chapters.
-Egyptian God Osiris was enclosed in a coffin by 72 evil disciples.
-Jesus sent forth 72 conventional disciples in Luke 10.
-72 is the number of the Immortals in Taoism.

en.wikipedia.org...

Food for thought.

[edit on 25/11/2009 by serbsta]


reply posted on 26-11-2009 @ 09:50 PM by YukaiHenjin
Originally posted by serbsta
Amen, means 'let it be', or along those lines.

Remember also that Amun-Ra [Re] (the revealed deity of Amun) simply thought up thing's and they came into existence, he 'let things be' so to speak.

I have an Egyptian dictionary with me. There is a verb "Imn" written in hieroglyphics exactly like Amun's name, but with the "man" determinative instead of the "god" determinative. It means "to hide." There are other words similar to "Imn" but the hieroglyphics are different.


Thought i might throw in some brief thing's on the Trinity concept while we're at it:

The three gods are one yet the Egyptian elsewhere insists on the separate identity of each of the three". This unity in plurality is expressed in one text: "All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, whom none equals. He who hides his name as Amun, he appears to the face as Re, his body is Ptah".


-"Of God and Gods", Jan Assmann

The Church is so intuitive.

Hinduism also has a Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, representing Creation, Life, and Death. I guess the Trinity idea came from several different religions.
This just jumped out at me - "hides his name as Amun." The verb Imn "to hide" that I mentioned is definitely related.


Any sources?


www.cs.utah.edu...
Here is a source. It has the 72-letter name in addition to the other names (but doesn't say what it is, since nobody but a few High Priests ever knew what it was), and also the 72 names of God (which are easily available online).


Edit:

I don't think it has 72 letter's, i think you are talking about the 72 names of God.

www.textfiles.com...
This contains the 72 names of God (actually angels), which is probably the Divine Council that Undo was talking about. They are written in consonantal roots and as a pronunciation with vowels. It also relates them to the Zodiac, planets, and the Tarot.


-72 is also the number of books in the Catholic Bible.
-The number of hours Jesus was in the tomb.
-The original version of 'Revelations' had 72 chapters.
-Egyptian God Osiris was enclosed in a coffin by 72 evil disciples.
-Jesus sent forth 72 conventional disciples in Luke 10.
-72 is the number of the Immortals in Taoism.

en.wikipedia.org...

Food for thought.


I found something else too.
en.wikipedia.org...
From Wikipedia:

The Great Sanhedrin was the supreme court of ancient Israel. In total there were 71 members. The Great Sanhedrin was made up of a Chief/Prince/Leader called Nasi (at some times this position may have been held by the Kohen Gadol or the High Priest), a vice chief justice (Av Beit Din), and sixty-nine general members. In the Second Temple period, the Great Sanhedrin met in the Hall of Hewn Stones in the Temple in Jerusalem. The court convened every day except festivals and Shabbat. In the late 3rd century, to avoid persecution, its authoritative decisions were issued under the name of Beth HaMidrash.

There are 71 members in the Sanhedrin court. Maybe God is supposed to be the 72nd member.


reply posted on 26-11-2009 @ 10:48 PM by serbsta
reply to post by YukaiHenjin


I haven't heard of 'Imn' before, but it would make sense when the vowels weren't really needed.

The oldest reference to the Trinity that I've come across is that of Hermes Trismegistus, being 'thrice wise', although even some ancient Chinese myths have compelling stories involving a trilogy but I'm not sure about its chronological placement.

Hmm... that's an interesting theory about the 72nd member. It would make sense.




reply posted on 27-11-2009 @ 11:48 PM by YukaiHenjin
reply to post by serbsta

Originally posted by serbsta
I haven't heard of 'Imn' before, but it would make sense when the vowels weren't really needed.


Yeah, in Egyptian, the vowels weren't really needed. But the fact that 'Imn' means "to hide" means that the Amon=Amen=Aman-Ki theory needs some more research.

The oldest reference to the Trinity that I've come across is that of Hermes Trismegistus, being 'thrice wise', although even some ancient Chinese myths have compelling stories involving a trilogy but I'm not sure about its chronological placement.


I found an interesting article about the origins of the Trinity.
www.heraldmag.org...



reply posted on 28-11-2009 @ 02:24 AM by undo
reply to post by serbsta


those references you gave are my sources too.
well, except for the jesus disciple thing but that is interesting!


reply posted on 28-11-2009 @ 03:30 AM by serbsta
Originally posted by YukaiHenjin
Yeah, in Egyptian, the vowels weren't really needed. But the fact that 'Imn' means "to hide" means that the Amon=Amen=Aman-Ki theory needs some more research.

...

I found an interesting article about the origins of the Trinity.
www.heraldmag.org...


It's all very complicated... I'm just thinking off the top of my head now.

Amen = 'truth' or 'so be it, truly', along those lines.
Imn [Amun/Amon?? ] = 'the one that is hidden'

...'the hidden truth'?

I need to sharpen up on my etymology. Hold on, could the Egyptian Amun-Ra, or just Amun be related to the Hindu Aum(Om)?

Couldn't the original deviation Amon/Amun/Amen have originated from the ancient Libyan word for water, 'aman'? If you think about it, it would make sense. The Libyans extended their territory from Egypt to the Niger Basin early in the third and in the late second millennium B.C. It could be a possible point of origin, a lot of deitification originates with the water element.

Thanks for the link. Was an interesting read, will have to let it ponder for a while.

Cheers.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by serbsta


those references you gave are my sources too.
well, except for the jesus disciple thing but that is interesting!


Yea, interestingly enough. There is a demon called Amon, he is the seventh of the 72 Goetic demons.

Amon + the number 72 = Linked!

Sorry, just havin' some fun.


reply posted on 28-11-2009 @ 06:14 PM by Devino
Originally posted by Matyas
Well, maybe. Life is struggle, the two mutually coexist. Recall how the trees in the Biodome became so brittle without any wind or breeze that they fractured and broke under their own weight?

With this idea came the quote, "Adversity breeds innovation". I believe that Good and Evil are two different sides of the same coin, one cannot be without the other.


Originally posted by serbsta
It's all very complicated... I'm just thinking off the top of my head now.

Amen = 'truth' or 'so be it, truly', along those lines.
Imn [Amun/Amon?? ] = 'the one that is hidden'

...'the hidden truth

I am reading some of the books you linked in your thread, "E-books of Interest", and in "The Emerald Tablets of Thoth" and "The Hymns of Hermes" you will read that the Truth is hidden. This is the basis for Gnosis, the understanding of Truth or that which is Divine. The Truth is hidden from the darkness in the Light of Understanding.

Of all the names for God I prefer "I am that I am", this fits in beautifully with "I think, Therefore I am".

Couldn't the original deviation Amon/Amun/Amen have originated from the ancient Libyan word for water, 'aman'?

What does Jupiter, Ammonium Chloride, and Cephalopods have in common? Amon.
I think that this shows a connection between the planet Jupiter, sea water and some of the creatures that live within this water. As to the reason for this connection, I don't know, but I don't think that it is just a coincidence. The truth is hidden!

[edit on 11/28/2009 by Devino]


reply posted on 28-11-2009 @ 07:05 PM by serbsta
Originally posted by Devino

Couldn't the original deviation Amon/Amun/Amen have originated from the ancient Libyan word for water, 'aman'?

What does Jupiter, Ammonium Chloride, and Cephalopods have in common? Amon.
I think that this shows a connection between the planet Jupiter, sea water and some of the creatures that live within this water. As to the reason for this connection, I don't know, but I don't think that it is just a coincidence. The truth is hidden!

[edit on 11/28/2009 by Devino]




Check this out, via: www.etymonline.com...

ammonia

1799, coined 1782 by Swedish chemist Torbern Bergman (1735–1784) for gas obtained from sal ammoniac, salt deposits containing ammonium chloride found near temple of Jupiter Ammon (from Egyptian God Amun) in Libya, from Gk. ammoniakon "belonging to Ammon." The shrine was already ancient in Augustus' day, and the salts were prepared "from the sands where the camels waited while their masters prayed for good omens" [Shipley]. There also was a gum form of sal ammoniac, from a wild plant that grew near the shrine, and across North Africa and Asia. A less likely theory traces the name to Gk. Armeniakon "Armenian," since the substance also was found in Armenia. Also known as Spirit of Hartshorn and Volatile or Animal Alkali.


After the Roman takeover of Egypt its clear where Jupiter Ammon came from. Is this where Amen (Christian/Islamic, etc) originated? Is this where the 'so be it' that was incorporated into Christianity, Islam, etc first came into being; once the Romans ofcourse had established their new Jupiter Ammon, the deviation could have evolved, later adapted into the Roman Catholic Church, and that is how we have our 'amen'.

Yay or nay?


reply posted on 29-11-2009 @ 06:14 AM by Devino
reply to post by serbsta


I'm not sure I follow you but here is my line of thought on this. The connection here to the planet Jupiter is by way of these names for reasons that I don't know. Why was it called the Jupiter Ammon? These two names are separate here but yet they mean the same?

From your link.
the salts were prepared "from the sands where the camels waited while their masters prayed for good omens" [Shipley].

Ammonium chloride found where camels were kept, would this have anything to do with the camels?

I can understand how 'amen' could come to be used to give tribute to Amun or otherwise to express, "That is All" - "What has been said is Truth", to whatever hymn was told. The lower case 'a' in 'amen' seems to indicate a descriptive word rather than a name and in reverence to the Divine a lower case never should be used.

As for the connection of "Amun" to "Ammonium Chloride" I think there is more to this than camel urine and I think we are closer to this understanding when we add in the connections to "Sea Water" and "Cephalopods". Personally I was amazed at the connections between the different types of Mitres (Pope hats) and other religious head gear to the Octopus and Cuttlefish (also know as Ammonites). I am lost to why this is and would not have thought twice about it if not for the connections made here.

Then there are the precious Ammolite gemstones found in the Rocky Mountains of the U.S.
[Ammolite] is arguably the rarest gemstone on earth, rivaling the rarity of such gemstones as alexandrite and red diamonds. It is made of the fossilized shells of ammonites.

The fossilized shells of ammonites that reflect a beautiful rainbow.
Ammolite.
This then reminds me of the mystery of the sacred Purple Dye which is made from Mollusks (sea snails).
Tyrian Purple.


reply posted on 29-11-2009 @ 06:38 AM by serbsta
reply to post by Devino


I see what you're saying, but that point i was trying to make was that Jupiter became Jupiter Ammon after the Roman conquest of Egypt. It stuck with the Roman's up until pagan rituals began to be persecuted under the Roman Catholic church. I'm just saying that Jupiter Ammon could have been where the modern 'amen' originated in the Church.

Just a theory.


reply posted on 30-11-2009 @ 12:09 AM by Matyas
Originally posted by serbsta
-72 is also the number of books in the Catholic Bible.
-The number of hours Jesus was in the tomb.
-The original version of 'Revelations' had 72 chapters.
-Egyptian God Osiris was enclosed in a coffin by 72 evil disciples.
-Jesus sent forth 72 conventional disciples in Luke 10.
-72 is the number of the Immortals in Taoism.

en.wikipedia.org...

Food for thought.


Along those lines I would like to point out, especially for Devino's sake, that:

72 x 5 = 360 (your extra 5 days)

360 x 72 (years) = 25,920 (precession of Equinox)

Earth (72) is 72x as massive as the Moon

Saturn is 72x as massive as Earth

O-K, that is all I will say along those lines of reasoning...
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