Islamist dies in FBI Detroit raid

Originally posted by Maxmars
reply to post by Oldnslo

 

I resist the approach. But I accept that cultures wishing to become American must either conform to the existing clearly stated laws and customs or simply understand that they do not wish to be American.

However we live in an environment were much exists to complicate the matter.

Do you not see any Muslim communities that are honorable, law abiding, and 'regular' people? I could only understand the xenophobic attitude toward them if they were invaders, criminals, usurpers, or enemies of the state.

You can't possibly be stating that these people qualify simply because they subscribe to the Koran - or claim to?

I have very peaceful friends from Iran and they love this country. They are good people who distance themselves as best as possible, from those that want to install Sharia law here in the US.

They came here to get away from extremists in there homeland. Most are good people searching for the "good life" in our country. The Koran has nothing to do with my beliefs.

My only beef is that I believe those that legally immigrate to our country to change our way of life rather than becoming an American best keep moving on to where their lifestyle is "acceptable" to the local inhabitants.

Those that are willing to become members of our culture seeking the American ideals should be met with open arms.

Those that pull a weapon on an FBI agent are not included in this group.

Well, I have to admit; it is possible that I am being too trusting. It is possible that in my attempt to embrace the notion that people should be free to explore spirituality on their own terms I have left myself vulnerable to those who would prey on that concession.

I have been contemplating the position for some time now. I have to recall the rabid hatred we have seen in our society before.

I think it's kind of funny that my position has been associated with Christian Pluralism; most Christian organized religions would not have me; and I assure you, I am - in that sense - the least of God's children.

It doesn't feel right to me to subscribe to a position that presupposed an entire population of people, loosely collected into a common traditional way of practicing their faith, are out to get me.

I think that the same were said of the imperial aspirations of Japanese people during World War II. They all got relocated into internment camps, because of course, it is natural for Japanese people to want to conquer the world, the fact that they were here became proof of their evil intent.

And being a native New Yorker, I know very well that all Italian people are Mafia and criminally connected to the exploitation of common vices like gambling and prostitution.

Then there are the Free Masons, who obviously are out to rule the world on behalf of their Luciferian masters.

And those sick Mormons. With their multiple wives and all.

Add to them those Muslims whose lives center around the dream of being able to brag about destroying the American people for their warped materialism.

It's all too patterned, see?

This guy was an immigrant? Who the hell gave him a passport?

He wasn't an immigrant? So he was just another criminal among the gigantic criminal community we so generously house either in or out of the government's system.

As for the grand plot to corrupt the American nation with their religiously-mandated precepts; you need to tell me which of our public servants have been doing this. Because I find that to be worthy of serious investigation.

I am not beyond believing that the government has prostituted itself before and know too well we must have safeguards to avoid it happening in the future. Perhaps this area, if proven to be a true threat, is something our public servants should be discussing under our scrutiny, that IS how the republic ostensibly functions, no?

[edit on 2-11-2009 by Maxmars]

Oh Maxie, you still aren't understanding that no one is talking about individuals. However, there is a force of Islam that is one with government that controls a population with strict beliefs that allow them to fly planes into buildings. This exists. Denying this existence will get you nowhere. If you want to personally take each individual and judge them then it's going to take a long time for you to accomplish finding safe and those who want to impose Sharia Law and kill us. Good luck to you.
Yeah, the old... my best friend is black thing doesn't go that far anymore since 911.

reply to post by Maxmars


Money and greed, friend. There are lots of names to be seen, though I cannot find a list of who has attended the SCF courses at Harvard besides the US Treasury Dept. Tim Geithner is named in a suit, with regards to AIG. (see below)

Here is a video for starters:

www.actforamerica.org...

ANN ARBOR, MI – Proclaiming that times of crisis do not justify departure from the Constitution, Federal District Court Judge Lawrence P. Zatkoff allowed the lawsuit against Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and the Federal Reserve Board challenging the AIG bailout to proceed. The lawsuit was filed last December by the Thomas More Law Center, a national public interest law firm based in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and attorney David Yerushalmi, an expert in security transactions and Shariah-compliant financing.
(snip)
The lawsuit, which was filed in December of last year in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan, is a constitutional challenge to that portion of the “Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008” (EESA) that appropriated $40 billion in taxpayer money to fund and financially support the federal government’s majority ownership interest in AIG, which engages in Shariah-based Islamic religious activities that are anti-American, anti-Christian, anti-Jewish.

opengov.ideascale.com...

An important element of Shariah-compliant financing is a form of obligatory charitable contribution called zakat, which is a religious tax for assisting those that "struggle [jihad] for Allah." The amount of this tax is between 2.5% and 20%, depending upon the source of the wealth. The zakat religious tax is used to financially support Islamic "charities," some of which have ties to terrorist organizations that are hostile to the United States and all other "infidels," which includes Christians and Jews.

www.rightsidenews.com...

America is going cap in hand to Middle East oil exporters. What government officials are not telling you is this: Islamic money comes with strings attached. Yes, sharia law “stipulates that money must not be used for a purpose incompatible with Islam” (Financial Times, April 26, 2007; emphasis mine). America will increasingly have to comply with sharia law, and what that entails isn’t pretty.

Even Boeing, the U.S. military contractor and largest aerospace company in the United States, announced October 31 that it had entered into talks with Gulf banks to obtain sharia-compliant funding.
(snip)
Yesterday, the U.S. government announced it was giving aig another $40 billion loan. Taxpayers already own 80 percent of this company, but what taxpayers may not know is that aig is the mother company of aig Takaful Enaya, a sharia-compliant insurance company.

American taxpayers already obey sharia law.

SCF banks:

Alpha Natural ResourcesAsset Acceptance Capital Corporation

Aviva Plc

AXA

Barclays PLC

BNP Paribas Group

Citibank, N.A.

Credit Agricole, S.A.

Deutsche Bank AG

Dow Jones & Company Inc.

Equity Insurance Group Limited

Goldman Sachs Group

HBOS plc

HSBC Holdings plc

INVESCO Perpetual

Julius Baer Group

Maersk Logistics

Merrill Lynch & Co., Inc.

Morgan Stanley

NYSE Euronext

Silicon Graphics, Inc.

Singapore Power

Understanding Shariah law is integral to understanding the dangers of Shariah-compliant finance. Shariah law is Islamic law dating back to the 7th century and is today the law of the land in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan and the law under which the Taliban operates. Recent polls reveal that only 10-15% of Muslims worldwide want to live under this all-encompassing system of Islamic jurisprudence that covers all aspects of a Muslim’s life including religious, social, political, and military obligations. However, with a current population of 1.5 billion Muslims, this translates to a huge pool of Jihadist recruits and supporters - a base of approximately 150 - 225 million Muslims.

www.rightsidenews.com...

www.thetrumpet.com...


The growth of islam in the world and US
www.youtube.com...

By 2030, Muslims will be the majority in the US.

reply to post by Libertygal

He did kill an officer. Canines are considered officers just as humans are, and afforded the same rights by law as officers. Killing a canine officer carries the same penalties as a human officer.

..okay...thats about 3 miles off target...but i guess in a technical aspect, you are correct, though if Ruff had any puppies, i doubt they'll be losing any sleep.

It saddens and disappoints me to see so many people in this thread bashing on another religion (Islam) when they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. The purest example of sheer ignorance possible, me thinks.

Just because some idiot goes around waving an Islamic flag, screaming DOWN WITH AMERICA, does not mean that person represents the religion of Islam.

Joesph Stalin was an Atheist. Does that mean that All Atheists agree with Stalins ways and live to carry out his evil plans?

Christians waged war on Muslims during the Crusades Does that mean that all Modern Christians feel the same way?

And not just someone who calls themselves a Christian, i mean those who truly following the Teaching of Christ

The answer to those questions is "NO"

And you can't over generalize the wrong doings of a few, to persecute many.

Let's see. He returned fire, or fired on the FBI?

Hm. The USA has it's little folkways and mores. One thing which seems to be common knowledge is that you don't really fire on the FBI, unless you chose to die then and there. Doesn't everybody know that?

Yes, and they fire on Mexican Americans, African Americans, and European Americans. They don't really care if you are Catholic, Baptist or Atheist, now do they? If they have something they wish to discuss with you, and you start shooting at them and trying to kill them, it's a good chance you are fixing to die.

I just thought that was common knowledge. The FBI is a very strong, strong arm of law enforcement. It's true. They play hard ball.
They don't much care what your religious affiliation is.

Originally posted by Snarf
Just because some idiot goes around waving an Islamic flag, screaming DOWN WITH AMERICA, does not mean that person represents the religion of Islam.

So you agree that this Imam shouldn't have been screaming "down with America"?
Anyway, since there is no way to distinguish between those individual muslim idiots who do act in this manner, and there's a whole bunch of them burning cars other forms of violence (over 10000 incidents since 911) and those death threats over cartoons (jez, no sense of humor in Islam) then how are we suppose to distinguish between peaceful moderate muslims and those who enact violence taught from the Koran?
See... there's that fine line and the peaceful moderate muslims aren't doing anything to stop those muslims who are "misunderstanding" their own religion. Instead those peaceful moderate muslims are protesting for those "misunderstanders" and on their side.
hmmmmm.

Snarf, here's a video of your peaceful non-violent muslims from the Detroit mosque.
www.jihadwatch.org...

I'd be glad to direct you of thousands of other incidents of peaceful (not) muslims committing acts of violence in the name of Islam. Or you can stick to your favorite apology "my best friend is black" nonsense.

[edit on 2-11-2009 by JJay55]

reply to post by JJay55


You are intentionally twisting my words and omitting my point in order to try and achieve victory.

If thats the only way you can win in your own little world, knock yourself out.

But i am in no way shape or form sticking up for any radicals and condoning what they're doing.

I am, however, saying, that they no more represent the religion of Islam than Stalin represents modern day Atheists.

Originally posted by Snarf
I am, however, saying, that they no more represent the religion of Islam than Stalin represents modern day Atheists.

And the point that most of on this thread are trying to convey to you is that your are incorrect in your analysis of Islam and should leave it to the professionals. Your opinion is as valuable as atheists are to Stalin. Please join the minority of apologists (Jimmy Carter) who will be dangerous to the well being of our great nation.
Have a nice day Mr Snarf.

It's interesting to see this thread now. Over the weekend I heard a translation of a Muslim preacher's "sermon", and he was telling his people that to worship Allah there must be bloodshed. "You cannot truely worship Allah without bloodshed".

I thought this was a rather disturbing message, personally. To hear this type thing come from the mouth of someone who is supposed to be a religious leader is rather disconcerting, at least in my mind.

So many things are happening with this political/religious group it's difficult to know what to think anymore.

It's disturbing.

Originally posted by angeldoll
It's interesting to see this thread now. Over the weekend I heard a translation of a Muslim preacher's "sermon", and he was telling his people that to worship Allah there must be bloodshed. "You cannot truely worship Allah without bloodshed".

I thought this was a rather disturbing message, personally. To hear this type thing come from the mouth of someone who is supposed to be a religious leader is rather disconcerting, at least in my mind.

So many things are happening with this political/religious group it's difficult to know what to think anymore.

It's disturbing.

This is nothing new. Until these people are exposed and shut down it will continue. Problem is that there are millions of mosques all over the world and growing. This theology will not cease, there will never be peace. Unfortunate.

This is nothing new. Until these people are exposed and shut down it will continue. Problem is that there are millions of mosques all over the world and growing. This theology will not cease, there will never be peace. Unfortunate.

Same goes for ANY and ALL human organizations...DOWN WITH HUMANITY

HUMANITY is NOT 'peaceful',Humanity is Animals In Constant Chaos...So,in a way your right,you will just NEVER be wrong,no matter how many people we cut from the equation

reply to post by angeldoll


Did you THAN go down the block to the 'other' church and 'eat flesh' and 'drink blood'?!

Originally posted by Rory27

This is nothing new. Until these people are exposed and shut down it will continue. Problem is that there are millions of mosques all over the world and growing. This theology will not cease, there will never be peace. Unfortunate.

Same goes for ANY and ALL human organizations...DOWN WITH HUMANITY

HUMANITY is NOT 'peaceful',Humanity is Animals In Constant Chaos...So,in a way your right,you will just NEVER be wrong,no matter how many people we cut from the equation
How many Christians are rioting over cartoons, burning cars over unemployment, honor killing their daughters?
Be blind, I could care less, your loss.

Guys I believe this dead man was a prison convert.

Mr Abdullah, who was also known as Christopher Thomas,

Notice a more western name? I maybe wrong, but this statement makes me pretty damn sure.

His black Muslim group calls itself "Ummah," or the brotherhood,

Now we can go past the idea of him being a immigrant and look at the real problem.

See, here's the thing about imposing Sharia Law in the US. It will sneak in and then before you know it the entire country will be like Dearborne Michigan.
Here's a prime example:
"Oh, Nabi! Say to your wives, your daughters and to the woman of Mumineen (believers) that
they should draw over them there jilbabs (Outer cloths or burqas) That (covering themselves)
is the least (minimum requirement) which they should adopt. So that they be recognized and
not be molested (by shameless people with loose morals) (Surah Ahzaab Ayah 59)"
cgi.ebay.com... 3fac

Using western methods, selling products, then condemning westernization.
Women in the US are free to choose their garments, in 57 OIC countries they are not. Ebay is a US store using a selling point that dictates Sharia Law in the above product description.

OK, so here's my understanding of the whole Sharia law bogeyman and the means by which it is being used to confabulate a nightmare scenario for Americans; who in turn seem to be on the receiving end of a call to arm themselves with pitchforks and torches for a march on the streets against this insipid treasonous development.

Don't get me wrong, I do not believe that Sharia law is compatible with our form of government, and like any other religions' intent, should be utterly divorced from anything to do with our government.

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And what does it all boil down to? Greed, political expedience, and lust for power.

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Apparently, at some point during the last 1,200 years or so (yes - you read that correctly, well over a millennium ago) the architects of the Muslim faith codified a certain kind of social behavior in the Koran (Quran?).

It was primarily intended to enforce, rather than encourage, investors and executors of business to take responsibility for how the wealth they invest gets put to use. It imposes a moral structure based on their value system on the activities of those who distribute (or redistribute) wealth.

Just as a Catholic charity may not contribute to a hospital that performs abortions, or how a Jewish businessmen might be disinclined to invest in pork futures (I guess), or a Mennonite Investor may not be putting money into the development of the latest cruise missile; Muslims have a wide range of activities that their money should not be funding. In fact, a salient feature of any religion seems to be the proscriptions it faces in everyday life - Muslims have a word for it, making it seem scarier to some.

No news here.

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However - Muslims have a distinct obligation that has always been a picking point. The is the House of Submission to God's will (dar al Islam?) and for simplicity's sake what we should refer to as 'everything else'.

It is the 'everything else' against which they struggle (jihad - another scary word which people don't bother to understand).

They struggle to not be corrupted by it, to not buy into its anti-spiritual qualities, to not allow themselves to be diminished by it. They struggle to show the true way, and to fight those who actively seek to prevent their god's message from spreading to all mankind. That's the word that has everyone's knickers in a bunch. And you'll hear it from the architects of fear again and again until it haunts your every step if they have their way.

Muslims accept that the house of submission to God (Islam) is the 'godly' way of life and that others are not, thus not in keeping with their god's will. Prophets, such as the businessman-soldier Mohamed, were not adverse to pointing out that obedience to the will of the Islamic god was not a negotiable issue (sound familiar?), and those who 'struggle' to nurture and protect the faith are soldiers who are free to assume whatever means necessary to achieve it's total envelopment of the known world.

Not surprisingly, many world religions feel the same about their particular dogma. In fact, many religions other than the Muslim have killed, maimed, lied, stolen, corrupted, and performed all manner of disgraceful act in the name of proselytizing the faith and/or destroying heretical or blasphemous outsiders. Historically speaking, Muslims are jut as guilty as the rest.

In the Islamic world, some split regarding the acceptability of methods for dealing with the materialistic corruption they attribute to western influence. When they began to face the power of the glamor and allure of western civilization, some lost all faith in the ability to reason or appeal their way through it. They blamed any and all who participate in it's form and function decrying even their leader's espousal of western ways. The militant began to vilify what they see as its wellspring and characterize it as Satan domain on Earth. They decided to attack what they believe to be the source. Form their on in it got ugly fast.

Some convinced that the ends justifies the means, pursued indiscriminately killing, to somehow satisfies their notion of religious balance. As if fear of non-compliance could promote their religion.

As usual, those who follow the path of violence and despair gravitate toward the clandestine and criminal to empower themselves. Because the ends justifies the means, they became international terrorists and thugs; sinking into the world of the criminal not acknowledging that THAT is the enemy, not their hapless targets.

Our local fear-mongering ilk want us to acknowledge, as if fact, that this is an aspect of Islam, rather than one of men. But I'm skipping ahead here.

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Contrary to what those in the business of manufacturing fear contend, Muslims do not spend their days plotting the downfall of the west. Frankly, if they did, I would tell them not to waste their time, because "the West" as they think of it, as they have been indoctrinated to consider it, is no more real than what 'the west' thinks Islam is. Cultural divides are self-perpetuating, and this is no exception.

The Koran is not about jihad, it's about being a 'godly' person. Much like Christianity is not about Christ, it's about being a 'godly' person. And so on.

Sharia Law is about infidels and violence only insofar as it defines what it means to refuse to submit to the will of the Islamic god.

Like most ancient religions, many Islamic laws are traditions entrenched within the constructs of the culture. We see this with many MANY religions.

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Much to the credit of our founding fathers, they recognized that religion can not and should not be a function of state governance and they codified it's separation in the Establishment Clause. Forever proscribing the mixture of religious intent with government actions.

For my part, I think that is a good thing.

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As with most noble ideals of cultures, and even the ignoble ones, it is in practice that we see that humans simply cannot tolerate a social condition of universal equality. This is to say that in my opinion, the flaw is not the religion, but the way it is manifested in the application to the institution of statehood by castes, clans, tribes, clubs, and corporations.

By the strictest interpretation of the doctrine, these intensely angry imams are only men. There is no reason to believe by their congregations - or any one else - that their vitriol is anything but rhetoric. Their inflammatory declarations for violence and suffering are only words.

Criminals use these Words to mask intent far baser than the worship of their god. Such criminals use their religious words to demand charitable support, since their targets are infidels. And the other criminals oblige. Each profiting from the activity in both political clout and social status.

But it IS criminal.

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The fact is, any Sharia-mandated activity can not be Constitutionally compelled on any person (corporations are persons) and therefore is ineligible for government administration. It would have to be an independent form of contract between non-governmental entities.

So I will be the first to agree that it's incorporation into financial policy at the governmental level is improper.

Those who will use this conflict of ideological difference will do so for the purposes of increasing their political relevance, their wealth, or their social position.

Most importantly, this is POLICY we are talking about. Not the law.

Sharia-compliance is not something we should be engaged in since it represents the very real probability that it will be akin to us arming someone to assault us.

But legislation is NOT policy. We have final say in that matter (law). And since we are talking about mere policy we can vote with our dollars. When our elected leaders "decree" we must, by law, provide revenue for a stream from which our potential assailants can drink, they will have failed to live up to the oath to protect our nation.

Yet, ultimately - again, the flaw is not the faithful to Islam, nor Islam itself. The flaw is with the oversimplification of the matter. The flaw is in thinking that machinations of leaders and certain persons represents the real people (non-celebrities) who just want to live in peace - and yes - we do outnumber the rest, by orders of magnitude. By that measure, peace is more successful than any campaign of conquest, military or ideological.

I must sign off now, I had more to say, but as you can imagine, this took some time... and even I must dwell away from the keyboard occasionally...

[edit on 3-11-2009 by Maxmars]

reply to post by JJay55

And the point that most of on this thread are trying to convey to you is that your are incorrect in your analysis of Islam and should leave it to the professionals. Your opinion is as valuable as atheists are to Stalin. Please join the minority of apologists (Jimmy Carter) who will be dangerous to the well being of our great nation.
Have a nice day Mr Snarf.

And you are a professional?

Okay, i'll humor myself for a moment...if i can be proven wrong in my assumptions, i will announce it on my public profile...but you're going to have to prove me wrong.

Show me where, in basic Islamic faith, it calls for all of these evil things of which you speak. It needs to be clear and concise however, no morbid mistranslations

No skewered subject to bias translations and interpretations.

Show me where it says "all americans must die and become subject to sharia law"


and thank you, i will have a good day.

Every day of my life has been a good day since the day i left behind my narrow minded view of the world in favor of one that realizes i don't know jack.

reply to post by Snarf


You insult me and then ask me to do something for you?
You have been shown examples. Unfortunately there are people who won't open their eyes until their eyelids are cut off.