Why would the idea of a gay man frighten other males so much?

Originally posted by HankMcCoy

Originally posted by halfoldman

Originally posted by HankMcCoy
"Let's end this steady stream of ignorance on both sides.

The only difference.. read this carefully now.. the ONLY difference between homosexual and heterosexual men is this.

Homosexual men are sexually aroused by penises.
Heterosexual men are not sexually aroused by penises.

That's it.

Anything else that comes into play as an argument for or against is ignorance, bigotry, stereotyping, profiling, and whatever else you wish to throw in.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with my statement, it's a statement of fact. Nothing you have said refutes my original point.

Just tell me then, how much of a penis-phobia do most straight men have? (Seeing that we are making binaries on sexuality and genitalia.) They love their own, shower with multitudes of penises about them, and even political symbols are based on the phallus as male power (see all the obelisks).If gays like penis/hetero men dislike penises, then the latter sure have a strange, accepting way of showing it. There's a penis in every straight porn movie (ooh, yuck), unless it's girl-on-girl (and how strange is that?).

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by HankMcCoy

 

Personally, yes I do agree, especially if one reduces the complexities of gender and sexuality to their very basis in biology. There are males and females (we'll get back to the hermaphrodites, castrati later - let's not complicate things), And men have a penis, biologically that defines maleness. I'm a male attracted to some males, so yes, it's true.
However, I am not fixated on the penis. I'm a bit into S/M and know some people, and some guys are so into spanking, whipping,caning that this act is the key to their arousal, and the gender is irrelevant. So the penis underlies my homosexuality as the sign of maleness, but it's only one factor in my whole sexuality.

You are correct, gender is irrelevant.

I haven't even touched on the gender aspects of arousal, merely the sexual aspects. Kink is another thread altogether. We can discuss sexual minutia or we can just make one all encompassing statement.

Regardless of who is flogging you, regardless of who you are kissing, regardless of who you are exchanging emails with, at the end of the day, if that person doesn't have the plumbing you are interested in, you aren't going to be sexually compatible.

And as such, my original point remains.

reply to post by HankMcCoy


No, as long as "it' wears a uniform and swings the cane, I couldn't care. The plumbing is a bonus for sure. However, being butch and domineering is a different thing all together.

Originally posted by halfoldman
Just tell me then, how much of a penis-phobia do most straight men have? (Seeing that we are making binaries on sexuality and genitalia.) They love their own, shower with multitudes of penises about them, and even political symbols are based on the phallus as male power (see all the obelisks).If gays like penis/hetero men dislike penises, then the latter sure have a strange, accepting way of showing it. There's a penis in every straight porn movie (ooh, yuck), unless it's girl-on-girl (and how strange is that?).

Did I say anything about penis-phobia? I made a -very- simple statement, which you seem to have misinterpreted.

Heterosexual men are not SEXUALLY AROUSED by penises. This does not imply that straight men are afraid of them, or are disgusted by them, it simply means that Heterosexual mean do not find them sexually appealing.

Phallic imagery is more to do with misogyny than homosexuality.

And your pornographic movie example is easily fallible as well.

1. Movie with two men having sex will not appeal to heterosexual men.
2. Movie with same to men having sex with a woman will appeal to some heterosexual men.
3. Movie with either of the men having sex with two women will appeal to some heterosexual men.
4. Movie with same two women having sex will appeal to some heterosexual men.

What is the linkage here? The inclusion of women.

My original point still stands.

Ive never had a problem with gay men before. Ive even had some try to flirt with me, but I just brush it off and act like im not interested, same thing I do when I find someone who is very unattractive tries to flirt with me. There is no difference, Im just not attracted.

But to be scared of gay men, i dont think it has to do with them not liking female genitalia, i think its more of the fact that they are scared they might like it. I am 100% hetero but I can still look at a man, and carry a conversation with female friends on how attractive he is. Its not that I am gay, its just the fact that I know Im not so it doesnt bother me to judge other men.

who knows. I doubt anyone is going to post saying "RAWR I HATE GAY MEN THEY SHOULD BURN IN THE DEPTHS OF...."wait...that probably has already happened, 12 pages and its on ATS? oh that has happened for sure

just my 2 cents, i didnt read the entire thread. shrug

reply to post by HankMcCoy


However, you are of course right in an underlying respect, as I've said. In fact it's a bit like stating the obvious, and social constructionist academia doesn't like generalizations like that.
I mean Freudian influences (and others) have made this a touchy point. There-by, males have castration anxieties, and girls have penis envy. Everything became phallic, even the lack of a penis was "a penis"!
And watch that cigar!
So power is masculine, even if females adopt male power positions in S/M. Unconsciously, whether gay or not, nobody can escape the power of the penis.
Nevertheless, for the male the erection is the sign of the arousal, so I'm not quite sure why you deny talking about arousal!

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by HankMcCoy

 

No, as long as "it' wears a uniform and swings the cane, I couldn't care. The plumbing is a bonus for sure. However, being butch and domineering is a different thing all together.

Heh.

I'm willing to bet that if your top isn't 'swinging a cane' as well as swinging a cane you probably wont go much farther than spanking.

Im going to shut up now.

reply to post by HankMcCoy

Actually I'm so glad you raised your point. Most homophobes immediately grumble on about gays and anal sex. Nice to see that arses aren't the topic here, but they usually are. Arses, after all are not the mark of gender.

reply to post by HankMcCoy

Perhaps one could say: Gender happens between the legs, but Sexuality happens between the ears. Fantasy is thus a powerful issue in sexuality, and as discussed it usually has a hetero male/female ideal (based on the vagina vs. penis).

reply to post by epitaph.one


No ats seem pretty good at all this gay stuff, at least there is no i hate them, and maybe those homophobes just stay away from this thread, afraid of weak wrists and all.

reply to post by andy1033


Weak wrists? I assure you young man, the ATS has some of the most well-toned wrists on the web.


What may be left undiscussed here. How do we define "homophobia"? It is a badly mixed word, between "the same" and "fear". As a kind of contraction however, I suppose it must suffice for now. It is misleading though, because it does imply that straight men must fear the same gender. Neverthelsess "bromance" and other forms of hetero male bonding undermine this notion. So now we must reduce it to fearing other mens' genetalia. In binary terms, if men love "vagina', they must "hate" penises. It is perhaps rather what the genatalia symbolizes: competition for females or gay behaviour. Well, I think the roots of this whole thread lie somewhere in the term "homophobic".

The psychology at work here really isn't about homosexuality, it's about personal fears, that probably aren't even acknowledged by the people holding them.

Homophobia is like any other irrational fear - racism etc, it's not so much about the actual facts, i.e. same-sex personal relationships or skin pigmentation. It's about identifying a visible group and dumping # on them, in order to make the dump-ers feel better and safer.

Someone is not abiding by the accepted social norms, despite not interferring with anyone else, another person who does follow these social rules takes it upon themselves to beat down this person. This has two effects: It shows everyone that the bully IS upholding the social rules, and it shows everyone else what will happen if they don't follow these rules.

It's basic bullying psychology 101 - Either the bully sees something in someone else that they don't like about themselves and don't have the guts to accept or do something about - OR - they are jealous that this person is doing something that is different to most other people around, but do it any way, minding their own business, regardless of whether it's "acceptable" or not. The bully dislikes the fact they feel this other person is not bound by the same social pressures they see themselves having to abide by, so instead of doing something positive about it for themselves, they try to beat down that other person, so they don't have to face upto their own feelings of self-worth.

Any excuse these people come up with for disliking this other person or group of people is completely unfounded and usually concerns an imagined or exaggerated trait the one being bullied has, or something the bully assumes, but really doesn't know or is simply none of their business. An example would be the trite reason that a person may find the thought of two men having sex disgusting. Well, since this is a private act, the only place they are seeing it is in their head, or actively seeking it out (pornography etc). Why are they thinking about it so much and seeking it out if they don't like it? I don't like to eat lamb, but I don't think about it so much that I hate anyone who eats lamb. It's none of business if you eat lamb, eat it for every meal for all I care!

Other people's lives are not our concern when what they're doing has no effect us, or on anyone else other than the people they are doing it with, with consent. If you are concerning yourself with things that don't actually concern you - you are doing so in order to avoid something else in your own life, something that scares you, perhaps subconcsiously.

All this can be said for any irrational fear, not just homophobia.

Every reason I have ever seen as justification for such irrational fears has been utterly bogus. Unfortunately, it's difficult to make these people understand any of the above, by reasoning with them in a dialogue - they usually get defensive or aggressive if you attempt to show them the workings of their baseless fears.

What is more effective is simply them having life experience shared with someone from a group they fear - Whether that's a gay child, or a Black son/daughter-in-law, or a Muslim neighbour. Their inferiority complex tends to become sedated then, allowing them to see that these groups of people they imagine are so different and weird are actually no different to anyone else and share pretty much the same types of aspirations in life that they do.

Originally posted by andy1033
I am on another board ta the mo, and you get the usual, gays are disgusting in threads. I wonder what is it about gays that really trouble straight males?

Is it
1) The idea that males, do not like female private parts?
2) The idea that males may fancy them in some way?
3) The insecurities in side themselves to protect there hetero feelings?

Personally i think alot of straight males, do not like the fact that absolute gay males, do not like female private parts. I really think thats the most important reason why straight males just do not like the idea of gays.

Alot of gays would find the idea of straight sex disgusting but no one ever says it, we just hear that gay sex is wrong, and disgusting. Looks like the majority runs the show, yeppy.

What do you guys think, about this, and whats the real, reason why you people think straight males hate gay males so much? Personally i think its no1, but of course there are lots of bi males, who can have sex with both males and females, but i am talking about all out gay males.

[edit on 10/28/2009 by andy1033]

It's simple. I for one don't care either way but, most men are considered men by the atithesis of femininity. That being said, to associate yourself, as a man, in any way, with another man that doesn't adhere to the same principles, conjures a threat that YOU, as the "alpha male type" will be labled as more effeminate, thus equating being gay yourself. It is simple social association and peer pressure. They do say, that you are judged by the friends you have. Does any straight man then dare to befriend a gay man? Me? I don't give a rat's @$$ what anyone thinks of me, so I would do it. When I say "do it", I mean.. be a friend to, you know what I mean. Just a friend. Platonic etc.

Originally posted by Bored To Tears
I'm with the group that doesn't mind gay men as long as they not wear Lt Dangle style shorts and prance around like some ninny.

Most people understand that there are men that like men, that doesn't bother most people. Its the flambouyant, in your face, parade marcher gays most people can't stand.

I live next door to a gay couple and they act like every day citizens. They don't flaunt it in my face and my friends enjoy their company on poker nights.

If you can spot a gay man in a crowd, then he is trying way to hard to be gay.

I sort of agree. I don't think being gay has anything to do with your dislike in those "types" of people. I personally don't like overly PC people, nor do I like those "gangsta" wannabe's you see holding up liquor stores left and right. It has nothing to do with gender, race, or sexual orientation... it has to do with the person. This may sound prejudice, get over it, but that's how I feel and I think that's what you were trying to get at.

Originally posted by andy1033
I am on another board ta the mo, and you get the usual, gays are disgusting in threads. I wonder what is it about gays that really trouble straight males?

Is it
1) The idea that males, do not like female private parts?
2) The idea that males may fancy them in some way?
3) The insecurities in side themselves to protect there hetero feelings?

Personally i think alot of straight males, do not like the fact that absolute gay males, do not like female private parts. I really think thats the most important reason why straight males just do not like the idea of gays.

Alot of gays would find the idea of straight sex disgusting but no one ever says it, we just hear that gay sex is wrong, and disgusting. Looks like the majority runs the show, yeppy.

What do you guys think, about this, and whats the real, reason why you people think straight males hate gay males so much? Personally i think its no1, but of course there are lots of bi males, who can have sex with both males and females, but i am talking about all out gay males.

[edit on 10/28/2009 by andy1033]

I can sum it up in one word - penetration.

Most men cannot stand the thought of being penetrated. Gay male sex requires one of the males to be penetrated by another male body part. I'm friends with many gays, always have been, but when I think of the penetration issue, it totally grosses me out. They can be gay but just not with me. Penetration in gay female sex is usually with an inaminate object.

reply to post by andy1033


It is not so much fear but kind annoying to the point of where you consider physical harm against them just to shut them up, like the annoying kids from your school days your wish you could beat the crap out of. I see the gay agenda as counterproductive. Throwing the fact that you are gay in everybodies face isnt helping anymore than the bible thumping christian. When you go out looking for trouble you will find it. Like a "Kiss In" at a rodeo by gay men??? I have no problem with gay people... I have a gay familiy member and a few of my ex-gfs had gay friends. But one in particular I had a problem with... he made it a point to make sure everyone in the whole world knew he was gay. Also talking about sexual acts in the middle of a meal. Women do this... men do in the presencee of other men. But in a social setting this is just wrong and not to mention disgusting. When I asked him have a little common courtesey and STFU. And I was called a homo-phobe.... so I reached over the table knocked one of his teeth out.


Two weeks late I got served with court papers after moving back to CA for a hate crime. Luckily I was still friends with this lebian girls who came to court and said this was no hate crime... If I knew I was going to get off scott free with a simple battery charge I would have really beat the S$^T out of him!

reply to post by Hopllyte

I do get some of your points. Some gays (especially after coming out) do become militant for a few years, even in social settings. Remember that nobody teaches gay people to be gay - it is a very lost, hurtful journey behind the bravado. Also remeber that gay people get mixed messages from different social circles. Some straight people with radical agendas actually encourage the up-frontness, and gays may mistake this for a commonly liked entertaining persona. Just look at the "fashionista" stereotypes that are pushed on gay men as the only "role-models". I think you could have told him that in your house talking outside the bedroom is considered distatseful, and changed the subject. It would have planted a seed and helped him. But to knock somebody's teeth out? That's criminal, shame on you.
I bet he's even more militant now, and it shows me again why we should be militant.

I don't think repulsion to acts that are not within the realm of teh desirable is necessarily a negative thing.

Being gay is a statistical oddity after all.
less than 2% of any population is gay.

I am also repulsed by many other things that I don't desire on any level. I don't hate them, I don't fear them, I simply have no desire whatsoever and therefore cannot relate to those desires in someone else.

Celebrate the differences as opposed to trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Straights are straights for the same reason gays are gays. It is what we are wired to be.

reply to post by andy1033


Here's what I think what is the real reason:

4) Fear of everything unknown.

Think about small kids. They can be very brutal about people who are different. Say you were 9 years old and there came a gay into your class. The reaction with your class mates is to react with mockery. The underlying thinking seems to be like this: "if you are not against him, you are with him", this leads to illogical conclusion: "if you are with him, you are gay also". There seems to be very little curiousity among people in general. Lack of curiousity is what makes the whole population so stupid (imo).

And this leads us to inspect how humans view power structures: "If you are not with us and you are gay, that means that you have no power". Powerless males are always the ones who get bullied. Why? E.g. To underline the status of those who hold the power. As a side note: what is the "power" in the context of 10 year old kids? Power, it seems, is the ability to lead your friends, to be the "boss", a king.

Next consider a new kid came into your class. He is very fat but not gay. Let's say your 9 year old class mates started to bully him. Now imagine that this fat kid did fight back, he was stronger and perhaps more evil than others, wishing to be the "boss". Having enough size and wit he could scare other kids and dominate them both physically and mentally. He wouldn't get bullied no more but perhaps adapt the role of bully himself. Now other kids would still view him as fat but that wouldn't matter because he was stronger than them, he was no powerless male. Among little boys it's all about power and who is the boss.

Gay person could also get into the role of being the dominant male and that would be ok for others (e.g. I once read a book about french legion, there was a sergeant who was gay and he liked to rape the novices' ass who hadn't enough personal power). This is however not the usual case. It is more usual that the fat kid gets bullied instead of praised.

The underlying reason for not liking gays is the subconsciouss knowing that this could render you as one of those "powerless males". Powerless males' ass is raped all the time, figuratively speaking...

Gay males don't really frighten me, I don't have a problem with what they do, just don't blast me if I happen to disagree with their behaviour. I know they can't help being gay it's just the way they are, just don't expect me to take in the gay agenda without speaking up.
Something tells me Jesus would probably be hanging out with homosexuals if he returned today but that doesn't mean he would think it's ok to be gay.
I think Jesus would probably accept them while at the same time showing them the errors of their ways.

What frightens me more about gays is NOT the gays themselves, but rather, the possibility that we.may soon experience a Sodom and Gommorah type event where we are all turned into pillars of salt.