possible explanation of building the great pyramid in giza- excellent documentation-

here´s a great docu of a researcher who investigated the building of the great pyramid in giza.
one of the few unspeculative and scientific documentations.
his theory is about the possibillity of an internal ramp to get the stones towards the pyramid and the great chamber and hallway of beeing a specious constructive building.

Timewatch: Pyramid - The Last Secret (Part 1 of 5)
www.youtube.com...
youtube.com/watch?v=W6xjcKaTSW8&feature=related

great watch.
forget about Erich von Däniken and his alien´friends´..


[edit on 28-10-2009 by anti72]

Originally posted by anti72
here´s a great docu of a researcher who investigated the building of the great pyramid in giza.
one of the few unspeculative and scientific documentations.
his theory is about the possibillity of an internal ramp to get the stones towards the pyramid and the great chamber and hallway of beeing a specious constructive building.

Perhaps handy after seeing those videos, here is some information about this Internal Ramp Theory.

The Internal Ramp Theory.

A radical new idea has recently been presented by Jean-Pierre Houdin, a French architect who has devoted the last seven years of his life to making detailed computer models of the Great Pyramid. Using start-of-the-art 3-D software developed by Dassault Systemes, combined with an initial suggestion of Henri Houdin, his engineer father, the architect has concluded that a ramp was indeed used to raise the blocks to the top, and that the ramp still exists--inside the pyramid!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2cb2fbfd84ab.jpg[/atsimg]

The theory suggests that for the bottom third of the pyramid, the blocks were hauled up a straight, external ramp. This ramp was far shorter than the one needed to reach the top, and was made of limestone blocks, slightly smaller than those used to build the bottom third of the pyramid.

As the bottom of the pyramid was being built via the external ramp, a second ramp was being built, inside the pyramid, on which the blocks for the top two-thirds of the pyramid would be hauled. The internal ramp, according to Houdin, begins at the bottom, is about 6 feet wide, and has a grade of approximately 7 percent. This ramp was put into use after the lower third of the pyramid was completed and the external ramp had served its purpose.

The design of the internal ramp was partially determined by the design of the interior of the pyramid. Hemienu knew all about the problems encountered by Pharaoh Sneferu, his and Khufu's father. Sneferu had considerable difficulty building a suitable pyramid for his burial, and ended up having to construct three at sites south of Giza! The first, at Meidum, may have had structural problems and was never used.

His second, at Dashur--known as the Bent Pyramid because the slope of its sides changes midway up--developed cracks in the walls of its burial chamber. Huge cedar logs from Lebanon had to be wedged between the walls to keep the pyramid from collapsing inward, but it too was abandoned. There must have been a mad scramble to complete Sneferu's third and successful pyramid, the distinctively colored Red Pyramid at Dashur, before the aging ruler died.

From the beginning, Hemienu planned three burial chambers to ensure that whenever Khufu died, a burial place would be ready. One was carved out of the bedrock beneath the pyramid at the beginning of its construction. In case the pharaoh had died early, this would have been his tomb. When, after about five years, Khufu was still alive and well, the unfinished underground burial chamber was abandoned and the second burial chamber, commonly called the Queen's Chamber, was begun.

Some time around the fifteenth year of construction Khufu was still healthy and this chamber was abandoned unfinished and the last burial chamber, the King's Chamber, was built higher up--in the center of the pyramid. (To this day, Khufu's sarcophagus remains inside the King's Chamber, so early explorers of the pyramid incorrectly assumed that the second chamber had been for his queen.)

Huge granite and limestone blocks were needed for the roof beams and rafters of the Queen's and King's Chambers. Some of these beams weigh more than 60 tons and are far too large to have been brought up through the internal ramp. Thus the external ramp had to remain in use until the large blocks were hauled up. Once that was done, the external ramp was dismantled and its blocks were led up the pyramid via the internal ramp to build the top two-thirds of the pyramid. Perhaps most blocks in this portion of the pyramid are smaller than those at the bottom third because they had to move up the narrow internal ramp.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/233230836309.jpg[/atsimg]

Wooden hoists on notches left in the edge of the pyramid could have been used to turn blocks onto the next part of the internal ramp. (Dassault Systemes)

There were several considerations that went into designing the internal ramp. First, it had to be fashioned very precisely so that it didn't hit the chambers or the internal passageways that connect them. Second, men hauling heavy blocks of stones up a narrow ramp can't easily turn a 90-degree corner; they need a place ahead of the block to stand and pull. The internal ramp had to provide a means of turning its corners so, Houdin suggests, the ramp had openings there where a simple crane could be used to turn the blocks.

There are plenty of theories about how the Great Pyramid could have been built that lack evidence. Is the internal ramp theory any different? Is there any evidence to support it? Yes.
A bit of evidence appears to be one of the ramp's corner notches used for turning blocks. It is two-thirds of the way up the northeast corner--precisely at a point where Houdin predicted there would be one. Furthermore, in 1986 a member of a French team that was surveying the pyramid reported seeing a desert fox enter it through a hole next to the notch, suggesting that there is an open area close to it, perhaps the ramp. It seems improbable that the fox climbed more than halfway up the pyramid. More likely there is some undetected crevice toward the bottom where the fox entered the ramp and then made its way up the ramp and exited near the notch. It would be interesting to attach a telemetric device to a fox and send him into the hole to monitor his movements! The notch is suggestive, but there is another bit of evidence supplied by the French mentioned earlier that is far more compelling.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0a6e60c1217f.jpg[/atsimg]

A microgravimetry survey of the Great Pyramid in the 1980s yielded the enigmatic image at right. Less dense areas (indicated in green) seem to correspond to an internal ramp proposed by Jean-Pierre Houdin (diagram). (Dassault Systemes; Courtesy EDF)

When the French team surveyed the Great Pyramid, they used microgravimetry, a technique that enabled them to measure the density of different sections of the pyramid, thus detecting hidden chambers. The French team concluded that there were no large hidden chambers inside it. If there was a ramp inside the pyramid, shouldn't the French have detected it? In 2000, Henri Houdin was presenting this theory at a scientific conference where one of the members of the 1986 French team was present. He mentioned to Houdin that their computer analysis of the pyramid did yield one curious image, something they couldn't interpret and therefore ignored.

That image showed exactly what Jean-Pierre Houdin's theory had predicted--a ramp spiraling up through the pyramid.
Far from being just another theory, the internal ramp has considerable evidence behind it. A team headed by Jean-Pierre Houdin and Rainer Stadlemann, former director of the German Archaeological Institute in Cairo and one of the greatest authorities on pyramids, has submitted an application to survey the Great Pyramid in a nondestructive way to see if the theory can be confirmed.

They are hopeful that the Supreme Council of Antiquities will grant permission for a survey. (Several methods could be used, including powerful microgravimetry, high-resolution infrared photography, or even sonar.) If so, sometime this year we may finally know how Khufu's monumental tomb was built. One day, if it is indeed there, we might just be able to remove a few blocks from the exterior of the pyramid and walk up the mile-long ramp Hemienu left hidden within the Great Pyramid.

Bob Brier is a senior research fellow at the C. W. Post Campus of Long Island University and a contributing editor to ARCHAEOLOGY.

www.archaeology.org...

Originally posted by anti72
forget about Erich von Däniken and his alien´friends´.

Why would I forget about Erich von Däniken and his alien´friends, because of this new theory?
Well, I see still no reason for that so far.



[edit on 28/10/09 by spacevisitor]

thanks for your post. I never read about this internal ramp theory so far.

Originally posted by anti72
forget about Erich von Däniken and his alien´friends´.

Why would I forget about Erich von Däniken and his alien´friends, because of this new theory?
Well, I see still no reason for that so far.


well, as far as I see, this is a MUCH more resonable and proofable theory than...aliens..

greez

[edit on 28-10-2009 by anti72]

Originally posted by anti72
well, as far as I see, this is a MUCH more resonable and proofable theory than...aliens..

Do you really think that this is a MUCH more resonable and proofable theory.

Look at this if you want.

The number of blocks used in the construction of the Great Pyramid are 2.3 million as most sources agrees.
The average weight of core blocks is about 1.5 to 4 tons each.

Suppose that the Egyptians where able to transport all those blocks uphill a ramp by pulling them forward with ropes on perhaps wooden runners and by pushing them at the same time.
That alone would be a marvelous achievement in my opinion.

But how did they do that with these blocks?

High quality limestone was used for the outer casing, with some of the blocks weighing up to 15 tonnes. This limestone came from Tura, about 14 km away on the other side of the Nile.

Granite quarried nearly 800 km away in Aswan with blocks weighing as much as 60-80 tonnes, was used for the King's Chamber and relieving chambers.

Suppose that the Egyptians where able to transport even those blocks uphill the ramp by pulling them forward with ropes on perhaps wooden runners [for as far they don't were crushed by the weight] and by pushing them at the same time.
Then that would be a more magic like achievement in my opinon?

But suppose they were even capable of doing that, the million dollar question is than, how could they have transported those blocks, and especially those huge big ones around the corners of these ramps.
You cannot pull them anymore in my opinion, so the only option left, is pushing.

And try to imagine how they have done that without the use of pulleys and wheels ,

So, do you, or anybody else here, think that that is really possible?

Look if you want to this.

Here is a post from PhotonEffect in the thread “Forbidden Egyptology” where some guys (at least 30 of 'em) trying to pull a [color-Yellow]25 ton block of stone,

Originally posted by PhotonEffect
Hey, here's some guys (at least 30 of 'em) trying to pull a 25 ton block of stone, hehe...
(I've included brief captions to each picture which are taken from the NOVA site- italicized portion)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b1bcd6ab5b78.jpg[/atsimg]
Modern-day builders would employ a crane and a flatbed truck to move a heavy stone like this one. But an ancient Egyptian relief painting shows long lines of men pulling a monumental stone across land. The NOVA team, .... , rely heavily on the same energy the pharaoh's engineers employed: the collective power of human muscle.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/808b4139e386.jpg[/atsimg]
To reduce drag and ease movement, a team member smears animal fat onto a wooden runner in the track along which workers will pull the 25-ton stone. Ancient Egyptians might have used slick wet clay to accomplish the same thing.

..........
Now here's the fun part...hehe.. there are about 32 (give or take that can be seen in the picture) men pulling those ropes...
..........

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4b673b113dbc.jpg[/atsimg]

At first the ropes stretch, and the stone refuses to move. Then stonemason Roger Hopkins climbs atop the stone and chants "God is great!" in Arabic to coordinate the timing of the pulls and to inspire the men. Exerting a tremendous effort, the men drag the stone a mere 20 feet.

Man that looks tough...So it took shouts of "God is great!" to get the 30 or so men to pull this stone only 20 feet. Of course we all know the Egyptians weren't Muslim back then. So what was their motivational force?

Also there are a couple of details missing which have not been provided by the NOVA team:
-They didn't mention how many men were actually used.
-They don't mention how long it actually took to move that stone.
-Although they mention they barely moved it 20 feet, they don't say if that was the total distance that was attempted...

Now multiply that one stone by a few million. 2, 5, 10, 25, 75 ,100 tons....whatever

www.pbs.org...


[edit on 11-4-2008 by PhotonEffect]

[edit on 28/10/09 by spacevisitor]

reply to post by spacevisitor


his theories are a very interesting attempt of scientific proof, against the unrealistic one-ramp or winding-ramp theories so far.
And the possible explaination of the great gallery as a complex construction structure.by far the most interesting stuff for years..


SOOOOO you think (possible or imaginary aliens ) are STILL a much better ´explanation´..

ok.





[edit on 28-10-2009 by anti72]

[edit on 28-10-2009 by anti72]

Here we go again

In this thread,

www.abovetopsecret.com...

and this post,

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I reveal in the link containing Jean-Pierre Houdin's theory, among many others, which are by no means exhaustive.

One of the problems with this theory is it does not take into account the inhumane working conditions which existed on the sides of the pyramid exposed to the Sun. Moving stones like that would have to be timed, and thus cannot account completely for the sheer bulk of stone which had to be raised and placed daily. And let's not forget all the other problems with this theory.

Therefore, even if the ramps do exist, and were used during construction, they do so only for a small fraction of construction material, if any, to be lifted, while other methods were used both simultaneously and at different stages.

Don't misinterpret my stance, ramps are a good idea, and I believe they were used to "walk" the stones from the Nile. And ramps could have very well been used on smaller pyramids. They are existent in temple construction. However, as the size of the structures grow, they become harder to deal with.

reply to post by spacevisitor


Seriously, you underestimate the strength of human will and the ingenuity of our ancestors.

Such a display of devolved stone age technology by a fanatically behaving handful of Muslims who obviously arrived upon the scene with no prior experience or engineering expertise does not equal thousands of years of accumulated wisdom passed from nation to nation and enshrined for eternity for reasons our little minds cannot fully grasp.

It is this very type of assumption which has labelled any who are not of us, our technological level and power base, as mere savages. Is it any wonder, then, we fail so miserably to break out of our cages, when we have so little faith in our own abilities?

Hi, pyramid fans.

Here is a suggestion.
Get ready for a medium term job. B-)

1- Get/buy/rent/borrow the 3 DVD kit, refered by my signature's first line.
You will know what THEY and WE can do.

2= Use IXQUICK and do some researches on the discovery that the
stones used to "create" the big pyramid seem **artificial** ! !

3= Go on the site of my signature's second line, and download all
"The Law Of One", to know HOW the big pyramid was "created".

Blue skies.

Originally posted by Matyas
Seriously, you underestimate the strength of human will and the ingenuity of our ancestors.

Why, because I cannot believe that they have done that by using those uphill ramps?
Would you be so kind to tell me how you think they have transported those blocks around the corners?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2cb2fbfd84ab.jpg[/atsimg]

And this is how the modern scholars themselves think about the ramp theories so far, so would the internal ramp theory make any difference?

Modern scholars have favored these two original theories, but deep in their hearts, they know that neither one is correct. A radical new one, however, may provide the solution. If correct, it would demonstrate a level of planning by Egyptian architects and engineers far greater than anything ever imagined before.

www.archaeology.org...

reply to post by C-JEAN


thanks fpr your post. I know the channeled material of Edgar Cayce about the great pyramid. I dont know if the RA material is the same source (David Wilcock beeing his incarnation etc) ..BUT what puzzels me, is the complete different construction dating , 10.000 BC, man..



..any S&F ?

Originally posted by spacevisitor

Originally posted by Matyas
Seriously, you underestimate the strength of human will and the ingenuity of our ancestors.

Why, because I cannot believe that they have done that by using those uphill ramps?
Would you be so kind to tell me how you think they have transported those blocks around the corners?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2cb2fbfd84ab.jpg[/atsimg]

And this is how the modern scholars themselves think about the ramp theories so far, so would the internal ramp theory make any difference?

Modern scholars have favored these two original theories, but deep in their hearts, they know that neither one is correct. A radical new one, however, may provide the solution. If correct, it would demonstrate a level of planning by Egyptian architects and engineers far greater than anything ever imagined before.

www.archaeology.org...

I DONT KNOW if they really used those ramps, but its a likely theory for me. even the porpuse and constrution of the great gallery could THEORETICALLY be explained. thats not bad..

what are your reasons of believing ALIENS build it? are there any?

(by the way, Däniken wrote his books for commercial reasons, he was a broke and creative hotelier.. and i see no proof of ALIENS)



[edit on 29-10-2009 by anti72]

Originally posted by anti72

I DONT KNOW if they really used those ramps, but its a likely theory for me. even the porpuse and constrution of the great gallery could THEORETICALLY be exoplained. thats not bad..

what are your reasons of believing ALIENS build it? are there any?

(by the way, Däniken wrote his books for commercial reasons, he was a broken and creative hotelier. and no proof of ALIENS)

[edit on 29-10-2009 by anti72]

Where did I said in this thread that I believe the Aliens did it?

Then, due some surfing, I stumbled on this site with yet another theory about how to get those stones uphill.

www.cheops-pyramide.ch...

And at the same site you find some thoughts and drawings about the difficulties that would arise by using ramps.

www.cheops-pyramide.ch...

Originally posted by anti72
(by the way, Däniken wrote his books for commercial reasons, he was a broken and creative hotelier. and no proof of ALIENS)

Firstly, I think that Erich von Däniken did not wrote his books for only commercial reasons, that is a wrong assumption in my opinion.

And second, I think that there is proof enough for Aliens these days, just as there is even proof for Earth visiting Aliens in ancient times.
Look if you want to these threads about that.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 29/10/09 by spacevisitor]

Originally posted by spacevisitor

Originally posted by anti72

I DONT KNOW if they really used those ramps, but its a likely theory for me. even the porpuse and constrution of the great gallery could THEORETICALLY be exoplained. thats not bad..

what are your reasons of believing ALIENS build it? are there any?

(by the way, Däniken wrote his books for commercial reasons, he was a broken and creative hotelier. and no proof of ALIENS)

[edit on 29-10-2009 by anti72]

Where did I said in this thread that I believe the Aliens did it?

The, due some surfing, I stumbled on this site with yet another theory about how to get those stones uphill.

www.cheops-pyramide.ch...

And at the same site you find some thoughts and drawings about the difficulties that would arise by using ramps.

www.cheops-pyramide.ch...

hm, of course we are no architects and professional enough to explain the construction, and we dont have to.

and I dont believe in alien / ancient god involvemnet, BUT I DO think we yet havent enough information of the real picture.
The spiritual background isn´t discussed, only the architectual and technical side, whatis typical for our time.
when we consider the psychic , channeled information (in any way), there we MAYBE get some more background information, the material of Edgar Cayce, David Wilcock, Jane Roberts.. interesting after all..

so, then we have some more problems, those sources claim a complete different construction date, 10.000 BC! 100 years of construction time! also for the sphinx..
BUT they have also some information:

www.crystalinks.com...

(Q) What was the date of the actual beginning and ending of the construction of the Great Pyramid?

(A) Was one hundred years in construction. Begun and completed in the period of Araaraart's time, with Hermes and Ra.

8. (Q) What was the date B.C. of that period?
(A) 10,490 to 10,390 before the Prince entered into Egypt.
..
16. (Q) How was this particular Great Pyramid of Gizeh built?
(A) By the use of those forces in nature as make for iron to swim. Stone floats in the air in the same manner. This will be discovered in '58.

so, IF there was a possibility of TRANSPORTING the huge stones in an alternative way we think, the ramp theories become more easy.

that perhaps means, that there was a kind of port to ship those stones, near the pyramid..

greetz




[edit on 29-10-2009 by anti72]

Here is a 3D animation site of his theory

khufu.3ds.com...

Originally posted by spacevisitor

Originally posted by anti72
well, as far as I see, this is a MUCH more resonable and proofable theory than...aliens..

Do you really think that this is a MUCH more resonable and proofable theory.

Suppose that the Egyptians where able to transport even those blocks uphill the ramp by pulling them forward with ropes on perhaps wooden runners [for as far they don't were crushed by the weight] and by pushing them at the same time.
Then that would be a more magic like achievement in my opinon?

How about a really radical theory...not runners, but rollers.

Just shy of magic, I know...way out there...

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

How about a really radical theory...not runners, but rollers.

Just shy of magic, I know...way out there...

Looks a bit difficult to me, because when you pull let say a 25 ton block as in PhotonEffect's case here, with a group of people uphill an 7 or 8 percent slope on rollers, you can’t have one second of rest to recuperate a bit, because when you stop the pulling it would rolled back again.
Or you must have a way to block that.

That would be even more difficult for the 60 or 80 tons blocks.

Originally posted by PhotonEffect
Hey, here's some guys (at least 30 of 'em) trying to pull a 25 ton block of stone, hehe...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b1bcd6ab5b78.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/808b4139e386.jpg[/atsimg]

Now here's the fun part...hehe.. there are about 32 (give or take that can be seen in the picture) men pulling those ropes...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4b673b113dbc.jpg[/atsimg]

At first the ropes stretch, and the stone refuses to move. Then stonemason Roger Hopkins climbs atop the stone and chants "God is great!" in Arabic to coordinate the timing of the pulls and to inspire the men. Exerting a tremendous effort, the men drag the stone a mere 20 feet.

Also there are a couple of details missing which have not been provided by the NOVA team:

-They didn't mention how many men were actually used.
-They don't mention how long it actually took to move that stone.
-Although they mention they barely moved it 20 feet, they don't say if that was the total distance that was attempted...

www.pbs.org...

[edit on 29/10/09 by spacevisitor]

The problem is the Egyptians couldn't have quarried, carved, transported and built the pyramid in the given time limit. A Japanese team in the 70's failed miserably.

Originally posted by Supernatural
The problem is the Egyptians couldn't have quarried, carved, transported and built the pyramid in the given time limit. A Japanese team in the 70's failed miserably.

What was the size of the Japanese team? Were they slaves or could they go home or take a break when they wanted to? We don't know they time it took to build it in the first place...we do know how it was quarried there because the tools are there beside partially quarried stones.

It may have been an engineering marvel, but we needn't use a black box to understand how it was done...this thread is a pretty good indication of that. Like they say...when you hear hoof beats, think horses, not zebras. Even alien zebras.

Originally posted by spacevisitor

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck

How about a really radical theory...not runners, but rollers.
Just shy of magic, I know...way out there...

Looks a bit difficult to me, because when you pull let say a 25 ton block as in PhotonEffect's case here, with a group of people uphill an 7 or 8 percent slope on rollers, you can’t have one second of rest to recuperate a bit, because when you stop the pulling it would rolled back again.
Or you must have a way to block that.
That would be even more difficult for the 60 or 80 tons blocks.

They are using sledges in the photo, not rollers.

It doesn't take a 25 ton block to wedge a roller from backsliding. Ropes and pulleys could put scores of men doing the donkeywork...or hundreds?

If you can think aliens, you can also think human ingenuity, and it isn't as much of a stretch...though maybe not as much fun,



[edit on 29-10-2009 by JohnnyCanuck]

Originally posted by jimwz
Here is a 3D animation site of his theory

khufu.3ds.com...

many thanks! good find!
very good summary..this construction software he uses is awesome..

..hey, yet 4 more flags and I am solid contributor...

I think we need to stop assuming first of all that the Egyptians even built the Pyramids, there is no reasonable proof to conclude this.

Ans for me the most intriguing aspect of the pyramids is not how they were built, but the amazing mathematical knowledge encoded and the precision with which it was constructed, its was truly an awesome feat and still unreplicable to this day!!!

As for the ramp theory, I dont buy it for a second