The Vatican and 12 year olds?

reply to post by JJay55

You can rationalize pedophlia anyway you want to, it's still pedophlia.

Sorry to step into your conversation with another member but I did want to clarify something- both partially agreeing with you and partially pointing out some information.

You're taking this to automatically mean the Vatican endorses pedophilia- but this is not what this is about. For instance, a 12 year old and a 16 year old getting married 500 years ago or what not. That's not pedophilia- that is two young people from a different time and place mutually consenting to marriage and sex. Or perhaps being a legal adult under the law and of marital age. So in that respect, I wanted to point that out to you. In those days, it was very normal for teens/preteens to marry due to harsh conditions and short life spans.

On the other hand, I do have issues with unions like, perhaps, a 12 year old child and a 60 year old adult getting married. In my honest opinion, religion, culture, or another time period doesn't make it acceptable. That is grotesque to me because that child is not being used for a life companion to build a life together on equal ground. In those types of unions, the child is often taken advantage of as a sex object and possession.

But preteens and teens marrying each other was the standard. Or perhaps a 16 year old marrying a 20 or 22 year old. In those times and places, you were considered an adult whereas in our time you would still be a child.

Does that make any sense? Having the age of 12 be a legal adult does not mean they were to be married at that age to someone 40 years their senior. For instance, even the aristocracy often became betrothed when both individuals were still children. Think of it like the ages of 12 and 13 in Judaism and a bar (boy)and bat (girl) mitzvah. It just means they were presented as coming of age- not that 'Hey! Now you're eligible to be married off to the old codger living down the street whether you like it or not.'

[edit on 10/28/2009 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by watchtheashes
Just wait until the next pope comes. He won't be very fun at all and will look VERY VERY familiar. UGH. That makes me sick.

I think he is the last pope, friend.

Originally posted by JJay55
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

You can rationalize pedophlia anyway you want to, it's still pedophlia.

You call 13 year olds sexually engaging with other 13 year olds pedophilia, I call it what 13 year olds naturally do.

This law isn't about promoting pedophilia its about at what age the church will sanction marraiges between people.

If you really imagine young adults reaching puberty falling in love with one another getting married and consumating it pedophilia then hey that's wonderful.

I call it young adults reaching puberty falling in love with one another and getting married and consumating a union.

Thankfully neither you or I make the laws or run the Catholic Church.

It's amazing though that you can conviently overlook the fact that millions of people the world over including children and young adults have no food or medicine and can only think about it, while evidently all you can think about is who should and shouldn't be having sex with whom.



[edit on 28/10/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

WTF? Yes, 12 years old is not a reasonable age to be having sex. It's physically dangerous.

Originally posted by AshleyD
For instance, a 12 year old and a 16 year old getting married 500 years ago or what not. That's not pedophilia- that is two young people from a different time and place mutually consenting to marriage and sex. Or perhaps being a legal adult under the law and of marital age. So in that respect, I wanted to point that out to you. In those days, it was very normal for teens/preteens to marry due to harsh conditions and short life spans.

500 years ago? ok.
And yes, these young girls are being married off to older men... according to religious beliefs of 500 years ago. In this day and age that is not something that should be happening or endorsed by the Vatican.

reply to post by JJay55


There are lots of stupid old laws still on the books. It's usually not worth overturning most of them, and just because they still exist, doesn't mean the governing bodies that still have them on the books actually endorse them.

To wit, in England...

All English males over the age 14 are to carry out 2 or so hours of longbow practice a week supervised by the local clergy.

Any person found breaking a boiled egg at the sharp end will be sentenced to 24 hours in the village stocks (enacted by Edward VI).

It is illegal for a lady to eat chocolates on a public conveyance.

In Australia

Taxi cabs are required to carry a bale of hay in the trunk.

In Ireland

Any person who shall pretend or exercise to use any type of witchcraft, sorcery, enchantment, or pretend knowledge in any occult or or craft or science shall for any such offense suffer imprisonment at the time of one whole year and also shall be obliged to obscursion for his/her good behavior.

In Canada

If you are released from prison, it is required that you are given a handgun with bullets and a horse, so you can ride out of town.

In Los Angeles

It is illegal for a man to beat his wife with a strap wider than 2 inches without her consent.

etc...www.dumblaws.com...

reply to post by JoshNorton

Yeah those are dumb laws that no one is expected to obey anymore. However, the 12 year old thing still happens... and frequently in some parts of the world.
For the sake of women everywhere this needs to stop. now.

reply to post by JJay55

As of 31 December 2005, there were, apart from the Pope himself, 557 people with Vatican citizenship, while there were 246 residents in the state who did not have its citizenship.
Of the 557, 80% were clergy:.
58 cardinals, resident in Rome, mostly outside the Vatican;
293 clergy, members of the Holy See's diplomatic missions, resident in other countries, and forming well over half the total of the citizens;
62 other clergy, working but not necessarily living in the Vatican.
The 101 members of the Papal Swiss Guard constituted 18% of the total, and there were only 43 other lay persons with Vatican citizenship.
en.wikipedia.org...

Just how many 12-18 year olds do you suppose there are in the remaining 111 citizens and 246 residents? I'll admit, there might be a few. But do you have any proof that anyone in the last 100 years has actually used this law as a defense or justification for having a sexual relationship with a minor within the Vatican?

[edit on 10/30/2009 by JoshNorton]

reply to post by JoshNorton

Here's the point. If the Vatican still allows such practice then it opens the doors for others to do so. Meanwhile pedophiles all over the globe have the Pope's blessing to continue their filthy ways. Islam will continue to marry off their pre-teens to filty old men because it's common and allowed. Law Enforcement is fighting not only trying to protect young girls but also against the Church.
Unless the Church stands up and says this is an old law and it is reformed then we still have this law in practice. It would show decency and responsibility.

The age of consent in the Vatican City is 14/16, not 12 as stated in the Wikipedia (and elsewhere).

Whilst the Vatican did inherit the law from the Italian Penal Code in 1929, it followed the practice of accepting all new laws (including changes to laws) made by the Italian Government, right up until 2009. Thus, when the Italians raised the age of consent (as did many countries around the world during the 20th century, the Vatican automatically accepted it.

Although, the point is probably moot, given the demographics.

Some-one kindly put a link to my FULL explanation on an earlier page, and here it is again: Vatican and Age of Consent

The Vatican age 12 thing is one of many vestigial rulings that have never been taken off the books. Overruled by the Civil Laws in whatever countries Catholics reside in.

Here in Canada it is technically on the books girls of 12 and boys of 14 can marry. Never comes up because minimum age by Civil Code is 16 and requiring parental consent.

this to me sounds like someone is nick picking at a little law that was set up in the past, but obviously has no merit today.

i have never heard a pedophile say BUT THE POPE'S LAW SAYS I CAN DO IT!!

come on....by law i can hang someone without trial if my memory serves for stealing my cattle.

but if i did that i'd be in some big trouble.

just like if i drag a 12 year old into the vatican walls and have sex with her. they will promptly turn me over to the authorities.

stop trying to make the church look worse than it does on it's own. Il Papa does not need your help.

reply to post by JJay55


Take 5 minutes and write what ever you want into Wiki. This is like using the bathroom wall as a phone book. Wiki is user Created, which can be good but I find Huge errors every time i Search my old cars on wiki. HP way off displacement and so on. you think that Vatican Laws are going to be properly posted when they can't get the Horsepower of the 89 Dodge Daytona right? BTW the 89 Daytona R/T has it's horsepower in graphic ON THE HOOD!

Yes but if the pope was having sex with a twelve year old boy the fact that it isnt illegal would mean there would be very little chance anyone outside the Vatican would hear about it.

Willhelm riech did some reasearch into abstinance from sex, he found that a build up of orgone energy had to be released, this could cause the person to act irrationally.

Manipulating little boys is very strange and something we hear about all to often from gay priests.

www.bishopaccountability.org...

People are failing to realize the difference between a secular legal law and a relgious law. They do not apply to one another. In fact, usually the religious law will take presedence over the secular law in people'sminds, but they do not apply to the real, mutirelgious world. The age of consent for the church is a dated, antique law. Think of it more as a traditional view, rather than an actual law. Anyone knows that you could no use such a law as a defense in a statutory rape case. It is easy to take the Vatican laws literally, but it is your duty to put them in the context in which they were developed.

[edit on 19-11-2009 by Jdawg9909]

reply to post by JJay55

Ashlyd

You're taking this to automatically mean the Vatican endorses pedophilia

It might be possible to listen to reason if the past were a little different,
but it is what it is, and it can't be reconciled period.

[edit on 19-11-2009 by randyvs]

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by JJay55

 

"however the age of consent for sexual relations in the Vatican is 12."

Catholics, shed your skin.

GW8UK

Manipulating little boys is very strange and something we hear about all to often from gay priests

Let's make that gay Catholic priests.



[edit on 19-11-2009 by randyvs]

Originally posted by AshleyD
It's an old status. As in, back then you were considered an adult at the age of 12 according to the Vatican- for legal purposes, too. Like in Jewish tradition the age is 13. That doesn't mean you're forced into marriage or sexual relations at the age of 12 or 13. It just means that was the age adulthood was recognized at the time. Please note the stress on consensual. As in you chose to be married- you were not forced or sold into it.

Yep. You can consent at twelve.

But when you find out what a bad idea it was, you're not allowed to get out.

That's "consent" with the quotations meaning that it is a word that is correct while still being a lie.

Originally posted by JJay55

Originally posted by AshleyD
For instance, a 12 year old and a 16 year old getting married 500 years ago or what not. That's not pedophilia- that is two young people from a different time and place mutually consenting to marriage and sex. Or perhaps being a legal adult under the law and of marital age. So in that respect, I wanted to point that out to you. In those days, it was very normal for teens/preteens to marry due to harsh conditions and short life spans.

500 years ago? ok.
And yes, these young girls are being married off to older men... according to religious beliefs of 500 years ago. In this day and age that is not something that should be happening or endorsed by the Vatican.

I do genealogy, which means that I actually go look at all those old pieces of paper that have marriage records on them in all their lovely handwritten glory.

Females in the general populace were NOT getting married at 12. It may have been MORE accepable, but it sure wasn't common.

This is a lie that has been spread, and it facilitates the goals of pedophiles.

The average age of marriage for the last 500 years in European societies and the New World is the mid twenties. With the males being older, and the females being younger, but still generally between 17 and 28.

Even in many other cultures this is true.

There is a way to research this for real.

You go to a building called a library.

With that said, I'm getting out of here before I get stoned!!!!

But seriously, when did internet research become a real thing? For gathering information, it's fine. But for full blown research?

Don't feel bad. I use the internet to sometimes.

But let's take this in a totally different direction for a moment. If that 12 year old is my daughter, "she consented" ain't gonna matter to me. And neither is the law.

Some people call water boarding torture. My preferred method of torture involves *F* *I* *R* *E*

Fire helps people change their mind.

So yeah, if it's my 12 year old, your going to have a real serious problem. ME! I'll be hot. But not as hot as you!